Sale vs Leicester - Sunday 3pm

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Oakboy
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Re: Sale vs Leicester - Sunday 3pm

Post by Oakboy »

Banquo wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 8:48 am George Ford is a good player shock.
Have you been ghost-writing for Brian Moore? :o

"The weekend was a throwback to times when two young fly-halves were strutting their stuff on the way to the top of English rugby. So much has been written and said about Owen Farrell and George Ford that just to see them simply playing, without the claustrophobic strictures of international rugby, was delightful, but tinged with one huge caveat, which we will address later.

Farrell, 31, splits opinion in the starkest of manners; very few are neutral about him or his performances. He is a wonderful footballer and the most tenacious of competitors. From almost first whistle to last against Northampton Saints he ran the game with a judicious mixture of belligerence, perception and precision. So much so that you had to wonder why anyone would see him as an international centre when he is so clearly a No 10.

In many ways Farrell’s game has developed along the lines of another great fly-half – Johnny Sexton. Initially a superb executor of game plans, a precision kicker, and a driver of men. You always wondered if he had to step outside this prescribed game whether he would have the necessary talent. Sexton has answered that question – he has.

On Saturday, like Sexton, you saw the more complete package, with Farrell’s probing kicks augmented by playing flat to the line and being a highly effective distributor. It left you wondering: what if Eddie Jones had let him play with this freedom and concentrated on finding a settled centre partnership outside him?

On Sunday, Farrell’s former schoolboy team-mate, Ford, put in a man-of-the-match performance to help Sale to the Premiership final in two weeks. Not a time for his attacking guile, this was a time to dig in and marshal the game into areas of the field that kept Leicester at bay.

Ford, 30, did this with aplomb. Sale director of rugby Alex Sanderson could not have been more effusive in his praise of Ford, saying an area of calmness surrounds him. He was like the rugby version of David Gower, someone who seems to have that bit more time than other players.

I have always had a sneaking respect for Sale – unfashionable, unapologetic and just very effective. They operate in the most difficult sporting environment possible, scrapping for every young player and fan, while surrounded by four big Premier League football teams and several Championship clubs.

In the final, Farrell and Ford will be pitted directly against each other and although this is a tantalising prospect, the truth is that the player who is given the front-foot ball to play with will probably come out on top.

Nonetheless, it will be fascinating to watch both trying to manage the game in its context. There is no doubt Sale do not have the same cup final experience as Saracens, but their obduracy could carry them a long way, provided they do not get blown away at the breakdown, like Northampton.

When historians come to write up this period of rugby, they might define a fault line that hampered England developing for long periods. None of this is the fault of Farrell or Ford, but the talent of both players has been such that under the former England head coaches, Stuart Lancaster and Jones, it was deemed necessary to have both in the same team. This led to many years where selectors did not force themselves to choose between the two, insisting that Ford played at fly-half and Farrell at inside centre.

This was nowhere near as productive as claimed. This is because the concept of two playmakers is overrated and for each time you can highlight when it worked, you can point to many more times when it did not.

Furthermore, when Farrell played at No 12, he did a job, but that should not be the measure. The assessment should consider what is lost when he does not play at No 10, and what someone else, a natural centre, could have done had they been given the time to develop a long-term partnership and whether those things, in aggregate, would have been more effective.

All this said, it will be a pleasure to watch two masters of their craft playing for English rugby’s biggest club prize."
Banquo
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Re: Sale vs Leicester - Sunday 3pm

Post by Banquo »

Oakboy wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 9:13 am
Banquo wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 8:48 am George Ford is a good player shock.
Have you been ghost-writing for Brian Moore? :o

"The weekend was a throwback to times when two young fly-halves were strutting their stuff on the way to the top of English rugby. So much has been written and said about Owen Farrell and George Ford that just to see them simply playing, without the claustrophobic strictures of international rugby, was delightful, but tinged with one huge caveat, which we will address later.

Farrell, 31, splits opinion in the starkest of manners; very few are neutral about him or his performances. He is a wonderful footballer and the most tenacious of competitors. From almost first whistle to last against Northampton Saints he ran the game with a judicious mixture of belligerence, perception and precision. So much so that you had to wonder why anyone would see him as an international centre when he is so clearly a No 10.

In many ways Farrell’s game has developed along the lines of another great fly-half – Johnny Sexton. Initially a superb executor of game plans, a precision kicker, and a driver of men. You always wondered if he had to step outside this prescribed game whether he would have the necessary talent. Sexton has answered that question – he has.

On Saturday, like Sexton, you saw the more complete package, with Farrell’s probing kicks augmented by playing flat to the line and being a highly effective distributor. It left you wondering: what if Eddie Jones had let him play with this freedom and concentrated on finding a settled centre partnership outside him?

On Sunday, Farrell’s former schoolboy team-mate, Ford, put in a man-of-the-match performance to help Sale to the Premiership final in two weeks. Not a time for his attacking guile, this was a time to dig in and marshal the game into areas of the field that kept Leicester at bay.

Ford, 30, did this with aplomb. Sale director of rugby Alex Sanderson could not have been more effusive in his praise of Ford, saying an area of calmness surrounds him. He was like the rugby version of David Gower, someone who seems to have that bit more time than other players.

I have always had a sneaking respect for Sale – unfashionable, unapologetic and just very effective. They operate in the most difficult sporting environment possible, scrapping for every young player and fan, while surrounded by four big Premier League football teams and several Championship clubs.

In the final, Farrell and Ford will be pitted directly against each other and although this is a tantalising prospect, the truth is that the player who is given the front-foot ball to play with will probably come out on top.

Nonetheless, it will be fascinating to watch both trying to manage the game in its context. There is no doubt Sale do not have the same cup final experience as Saracens, but their obduracy could carry them a long way, provided they do not get blown away at the breakdown, like Northampton.

When historians come to write up this period of rugby, they might define a fault line that hampered England developing for long periods. None of this is the fault of Farrell or Ford, but the talent of both players has been such that under the former England head coaches, Stuart Lancaster and Jones, it was deemed necessary to have both in the same team. This led to many years where selectors did not force themselves to choose between the two, insisting that Ford played at fly-half and Farrell at inside centre.

This was nowhere near as productive as claimed. This is because the concept of two playmakers is overrated and for each time you can highlight when it worked, you can point to many more times when it did not.

Furthermore, when Farrell played at No 12, he did a job, but that should not be the measure. The assessment should consider what is lost when he does not play at No 10, and what someone else, a natural centre, could have done had they been given the time to develop a long-term partnership and whether those things, in aggregate, would have been more effective.

All this said, it will be a pleasure to watch two masters of their craft playing for English rugby’s biggest club prize."
Not sure you’d associate me with being complementary about Faz.
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Mellsblue
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Re: Sale vs Leicester - Sunday 3pm

Post by Mellsblue »

Banquo wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 9:24 am
Oakboy wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 9:13 am
Banquo wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 8:48 am George Ford is a good player shock.
Have you been ghost-writing for Brian Moore? :o

"The weekend was a throwback to times when two young fly-halves were strutting their stuff on the way to the top of English rugby. So much has been written and said about Owen Farrell and George Ford that just to see them simply playing, without the claustrophobic strictures of international rugby, was delightful, but tinged with one huge caveat, which we will address later.

Farrell, 31, splits opinion in the starkest of manners; very few are neutral about him or his performances. He is a wonderful footballer and the most tenacious of competitors. From almost first whistle to last against Northampton Saints he ran the game with a judicious mixture of belligerence, perception and precision. So much so that you had to wonder why anyone would see him as an international centre when he is so clearly a No 10.

In many ways Farrell’s game has developed along the lines of another great fly-half – Johnny Sexton. Initially a superb executor of game plans, a precision kicker, and a driver of men. You always wondered if he had to step outside this prescribed game whether he would have the necessary talent. Sexton has answered that question – he has.

On Saturday, like Sexton, you saw the more complete package, with Farrell’s probing kicks augmented by playing flat to the line and being a highly effective distributor. It left you wondering: what if Eddie Jones had let him play with this freedom and concentrated on finding a settled centre partnership outside him?

On Sunday, Farrell’s former schoolboy team-mate, Ford, put in a man-of-the-match performance to help Sale to the Premiership final in two weeks. Not a time for his attacking guile, this was a time to dig in and marshal the game into areas of the field that kept Leicester at bay.

Ford, 30, did this with aplomb. Sale director of rugby Alex Sanderson could not have been more effusive in his praise of Ford, saying an area of calmness surrounds him. He was like the rugby version of David Gower, someone who seems to have that bit more time than other players.

I have always had a sneaking respect for Sale – unfashionable, unapologetic and just very effective. They operate in the most difficult sporting environment possible, scrapping for every young player and fan, while surrounded by four big Premier League football teams and several Championship clubs.

In the final, Farrell and Ford will be pitted directly against each other and although this is a tantalising prospect, the truth is that the player who is given the front-foot ball to play with will probably come out on top.

Nonetheless, it will be fascinating to watch both trying to manage the game in its context. There is no doubt Sale do not have the same cup final experience as Saracens, but their obduracy could carry them a long way, provided they do not get blown away at the breakdown, like Northampton.

When historians come to write up this period of rugby, they might define a fault line that hampered England developing for long periods. None of this is the fault of Farrell or Ford, but the talent of both players has been such that under the former England head coaches, Stuart Lancaster and Jones, it was deemed necessary to have both in the same team. This led to many years where selectors did not force themselves to choose between the two, insisting that Ford played at fly-half and Farrell at inside centre.

This was nowhere near as productive as claimed. This is because the concept of two playmakers is overrated and for each time you can highlight when it worked, you can point to many more times when it did not.

Furthermore, when Farrell played at No 12, he did a job, but that should not be the measure. The assessment should consider what is lost when he does not play at No 10, and what someone else, a natural centre, could have done had they been given the time to develop a long-term partnership and whether those things, in aggregate, would have been more effective.

All this said, it will be a pleasure to watch two masters of their craft playing for English rugby’s biggest club prize."
Not sure you’d associate me with being complementary about Faz.
You stark opinion splitter you
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Oakboy
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Re: Sale vs Leicester - Sunday 3pm

Post by Oakboy »

Banquo wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 9:24 am
Oakboy wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 9:13 am
Banquo wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 8:48 am George Ford is a good player shock.
Have you been ghost-writing for Brian Moore? :o

"The weekend was a throwback to times when two young fly-halves were strutting their stuff on the way to the top of English rugby. So much has been written and said about Owen Farrell and George Ford that just to see them simply playing, without the claustrophobic strictures of international rugby, was delightful, but tinged with one huge caveat, which we will address later.

Farrell, 31, splits opinion in the starkest of manners; very few are neutral about him or his performances. He is a wonderful footballer and the most tenacious of competitors. From almost first whistle to last against Northampton Saints he ran the game with a judicious mixture of belligerence, perception and precision. So much so that you had to wonder why anyone would see him as an international centre when he is so clearly a No 10.

In many ways Farrell’s game has developed along the lines of another great fly-half – Johnny Sexton. Initially a superb executor of game plans, a precision kicker, and a driver of men. You always wondered if he had to step outside this prescribed game whether he would have the necessary talent. Sexton has answered that question – he has.

On Saturday, like Sexton, you saw the more complete package, with Farrell’s probing kicks augmented by playing flat to the line and being a highly effective distributor. It left you wondering: what if Eddie Jones had let him play with this freedom and concentrated on finding a settled centre partnership outside him?

On Sunday, Farrell’s former schoolboy team-mate, Ford, put in a man-of-the-match performance to help Sale to the Premiership final in two weeks. Not a time for his attacking guile, this was a time to dig in and marshal the game into areas of the field that kept Leicester at bay.

Ford, 30, did this with aplomb. Sale director of rugby Alex Sanderson could not have been more effusive in his praise of Ford, saying an area of calmness surrounds him. He was like the rugby version of David Gower, someone who seems to have that bit more time than other players.

I have always had a sneaking respect for Sale – unfashionable, unapologetic and just very effective. They operate in the most difficult sporting environment possible, scrapping for every young player and fan, while surrounded by four big Premier League football teams and several Championship clubs.

In the final, Farrell and Ford will be pitted directly against each other and although this is a tantalising prospect, the truth is that the player who is given the front-foot ball to play with will probably come out on top.

Nonetheless, it will be fascinating to watch both trying to manage the game in its context. There is no doubt Sale do not have the same cup final experience as Saracens, but their obduracy could carry them a long way, provided they do not get blown away at the breakdown, like Northampton.

When historians come to write up this period of rugby, they might define a fault line that hampered England developing for long periods. None of this is the fault of Farrell or Ford, but the talent of both players has been such that under the former England head coaches, Stuart Lancaster and Jones, it was deemed necessary to have both in the same team. This led to many years where selectors did not force themselves to choose between the two, insisting that Ford played at fly-half and Farrell at inside centre.

This was nowhere near as productive as claimed. This is because the concept of two playmakers is overrated and for each time you can highlight when it worked, you can point to many more times when it did not.

Furthermore, when Farrell played at No 12, he did a job, but that should not be the measure. The assessment should consider what is lost when he does not play at No 10, and what someone else, a natural centre, could have done had they been given the time to develop a long-term partnership and whether those things, in aggregate, would have been more effective.

All this said, it will be a pleasure to watch two masters of their craft playing for English rugby’s biggest club prize."
Not sure you’d associate me with being complementary about Faz.
Yes, but 'the concept of two playmakers is overrated' and 'Farrell is not a 12' are straight from the 'Tim/Banquo playbook'!!!!
Mikey Brown
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Re: Sale vs Leicester - Sunday 3pm

Post by Mikey Brown »

That's a very clunky bit of writing for Brian Moore. "This wasn't productive because it's overrated" isn't much of an analysis is it. Fair conclusion that we've wasted a good few years of development in the centres, but that's hardly news.

Of course I had to look up 'obduracy', and I'm not entirely sure it fits either.

It's great to see Farrell playing with a bit more freedom recently for Saracens, but it's hard to picture that being used to break down international defences.
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Oakboy
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Re: Sale vs Leicester - Sunday 3pm

Post by Oakboy »

Mikey Brown wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 9:48 am That's a very clunky bit of writing for Brian Moore. "This wasn't productive because it's overrated" isn't much of an analysis is it. Fair conclusion that we've wasted a good few years of development in the centres, but that's hardly news.

Of course I had to look up 'obduracy', and I'm not entirely sure it fits either.

It's great to see Farrell playing with a bit more freedom recently for Saracens, but it's hard to picture that being used to break down international defences.
It's yet another (reasonably informed) opinion that it should simply be either/or; never both.
Mikey Brown
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Re: Sale vs Leicester - Sunday 3pm

Post by Mikey Brown »

I'm sure it is informed, but it doesn't really express anything that you wouldn't get from a 5 word tweet simply saying "don't play Farrell at 12".
Banquo
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Re: Sale vs Leicester - Sunday 3pm

Post by Banquo »

Oakboy wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 9:36 am
Banquo wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 9:24 am
Oakboy wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 9:13 am

Have you been ghost-writing for Brian Moore? :o

"The weekend was a throwback to times when two young fly-halves were strutting their stuff on the way to the top of English rugby. So much has been written and said about Owen Farrell and George Ford that just to see them simply playing, without the claustrophobic strictures of international rugby, was delightful, but tinged with one huge caveat, which we will address later.

Farrell, 31, splits opinion in the starkest of manners; very few are neutral about him or his performances. He is a wonderful footballer and the most tenacious of competitors. From almost first whistle to last against Northampton Saints he ran the game with a judicious mixture of belligerence, perception and precision. So much so that you had to wonder why anyone would see him as an international centre when he is so clearly a No 10.

In many ways Farrell’s game has developed along the lines of another great fly-half – Johnny Sexton. Initially a superb executor of game plans, a precision kicker, and a driver of men. You always wondered if he had to step outside this prescribed game whether he would have the necessary talent. Sexton has answered that question – he has.

On Saturday, like Sexton, you saw the more complete package, with Farrell’s probing kicks augmented by playing flat to the line and being a highly effective distributor. It left you wondering: what if Eddie Jones had let him play with this freedom and concentrated on finding a settled centre partnership outside him?

On Sunday, Farrell’s former schoolboy team-mate, Ford, put in a man-of-the-match performance to help Sale to the Premiership final in two weeks. Not a time for his attacking guile, this was a time to dig in and marshal the game into areas of the field that kept Leicester at bay.

Ford, 30, did this with aplomb. Sale director of rugby Alex Sanderson could not have been more effusive in his praise of Ford, saying an area of calmness surrounds him. He was like the rugby version of David Gower, someone who seems to have that bit more time than other players.

I have always had a sneaking respect for Sale – unfashionable, unapologetic and just very effective. They operate in the most difficult sporting environment possible, scrapping for every young player and fan, while surrounded by four big Premier League football teams and several Championship clubs.

In the final, Farrell and Ford will be pitted directly against each other and although this is a tantalising prospect, the truth is that the player who is given the front-foot ball to play with will probably come out on top.

Nonetheless, it will be fascinating to watch both trying to manage the game in its context. There is no doubt Sale do not have the same cup final experience as Saracens, but their obduracy could carry them a long way, provided they do not get blown away at the breakdown, like Northampton.

When historians come to write up this period of rugby, they might define a fault line that hampered England developing for long periods. None of this is the fault of Farrell or Ford, but the talent of both players has been such that under the former England head coaches, Stuart Lancaster and Jones, it was deemed necessary to have both in the same team. This led to many years where selectors did not force themselves to choose between the two, insisting that Ford played at fly-half and Farrell at inside centre.

This was nowhere near as productive as claimed. This is because the concept of two playmakers is overrated and for each time you can highlight when it worked, you can point to many more times when it did not.

Furthermore, when Farrell played at No 12, he did a job, but that should not be the measure. The assessment should consider what is lost when he does not play at No 10, and what someone else, a natural centre, could have done had they been given the time to develop a long-term partnership and whether those things, in aggregate, would have been more effective.

All this said, it will be a pleasure to watch two masters of their craft playing for English rugby’s biggest club prize."
Not sure you’d associate me with being complementary about Faz.
Yes, but 'the concept of two playmakers is overrated' and 'Farrell is not a 12' are straight from the 'Tim/Banquo playbook'!!!!
Fair point. Always liked Brian Moore :) :)...even if, as Mikey says, its not the greatest bit of technical analysis. He was a hooker tbf :) :)
Banquo
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Re: Sale vs Leicester - Sunday 3pm

Post by Banquo »

Mikey Brown wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 9:48 am

It's great to see Farrell playing with a bit more freedom recently for Saracens, but it's hard to picture that being used to break down international defences.
I think that's a bit exaggerated still tbh, but totally agree with the second point- there's less time at the top of the game, and faz needs a lot of time to play 'spontaneously' :lol: :lol: (only half joking, his skills with the ball remain clunky imo....and speed of thought and deed aren't as quick as the likes of Sexton, Ford etc etc). But he's always been a very good club 10.
SixAndAHalf
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Re: Sale vs Leicester - Sunday 3pm

Post by SixAndAHalf »

Puja wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 4:57 pm Fair play Sale - you put in a great performance and the best team won. Very proud of the effort that Leicester gave, both today and in rescuing the season after a mild bit of disruption partway through.

How good was George Ford though? His attacking choices on the gainline always rattled us and that torpedo kick for touch knocked the wind right out of us. Dan Kelly and Carpenter were also superb - looking forward to seeing all of them in the England training camp squad.

Puja
Potentially controversial but I thought Jonny Hill looked good and should be back in the England reckoning...
Mikey Brown
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Re: Sale vs Leicester - Sunday 3pm

Post by Mikey Brown »

I think that’s fair. I don’t think we’ve got the options to dismiss him entirely.

He looked to have slipped back in to being a clumsy penalty magnet, but he did have a good patch for England alongside Itoje and hopefully can rediscover that.

I like Ribbans but it feels like there’s something making coaches hesitant to give him a chance?

What’s the latest on Chessum?
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Puja
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Re: Sale vs Leicester - Sunday 3pm

Post by Puja »

SixAndAHalf wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 12:56 pm
Puja wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 4:57 pm Fair play Sale - you put in a great performance and the best team won. Very proud of the effort that Leicester gave, both today and in rescuing the season after a mild bit of disruption partway through.

How good was George Ford though? His attacking choices on the gainline always rattled us and that torpedo kick for touch knocked the wind right out of us. Dan Kelly and Carpenter were also superb - looking forward to seeing all of them in the England training camp squad.

Puja
Potentially controversial but I thought Jonny Hill looked good and should be back in the England reckoning...
He has got the ability to be a very good player, but I just don't trust him not to be a fucking idiot at crucial times. Probably not out of the equation for me, but he's got to show a bit more before I'd start actively wanting him back.

I'd actually have Martin ahead of him in my own personal selection. Yes, he is still very young and raw and possibly still growing into his frame, but he's stepped up every time and the performance against Leinster was especially impressive, followed up by a really good game against Sale. I'd potentially even have him ahead of Chessum rn as well.

Does anyone know how Ewels is getting on in SA? He's become a joke on here, but he has has some good games for England (against Wales a year or so back, I remember) and I'm not sure there's not something worth persevering with there, especially if going to SA has helped him kick on more than being at the bottom of the table with Bath has ever done.
Mikey Brown wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 1:05 pmWhat’s the latest on Chessum?
Touch and go whether he'll be fit for the start of the new season was the last I heard. Not sure he's a realistic RWC hope unless his recovery takes an unexpected positive turn.

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Re: Sale vs Leicester - Sunday 3pm

Post by FKAS »

I thought Chessum was supposed to be touch and go for the world cup but expected to be back for the start of the season with Tigers? It's quite possible it's worse than that as I think it heard that after he first got injured.

I think Hill is a good option to have in a very physical game. You can normally rely on him to put a lot of big tackles in around the breakdown. It's when the game is played a bit wider I think he struggles, gets tired and makes poor decisions. He's a big bloke so possibly not the starting option if the opposition are going to move our pack around.

Ribbans and Martin are both good options. We do seem to lack a real top class lineout operator though.
Banquo
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Re: Sale vs Leicester - Sunday 3pm

Post by Banquo »

FKAS wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 4:43 pm I thought Chessum was supposed to be touch and go for the world cup but expected to be back for the start of the season with Tigers? It's quite possible it's worse than that as I think it heard that after he first got injured.

I think Hill is a good option to have in a very physical game. You can normally rely on him to put a lot of big tackles in around the breakdown. It's when the game is played a bit wider I think he struggles, gets tired and makes poor decisions. He's a big bloke so possibly not the starting option if the opposition are going to move our pack around.

Ribbans and Martin are both good options. We do seem to lack a real top class lineout operator though.
Do you not count Itoje as such?
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Re: Sale vs Leicester - Sunday 3pm

Post by FKAS »

Banquo wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 5:04 pm
FKAS wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 4:43 pm I thought Chessum was supposed to be touch and go for the world cup but expected to be back for the start of the season with Tigers? It's quite possible it's worse than that as I think it heard that after he first got injured.

I think Hill is a good option to have in a very physical game. You can normally rely on him to put a lot of big tackles in around the breakdown. It's when the game is played a bit wider I think he struggles, gets tired and makes poor decisions. He's a big bloke so possibly not the starting option if the opposition are going to move our pack around.

Ribbans and Martin are both good options. We do seem to lack a real top class lineout operator though.
Do you not count Itoje as such?
Itoje is pretty great at most things but would you really call him a lineout general akin to Kruis, Matfield, Kay etc?
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Oakboy
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Re: Sale vs Leicester - Sunday 3pm

Post by Oakboy »

It's strange to me how so many find fault with Hill. Accepting the need to improve his penalty conceding, I think we are left with the best partner for Itoje. At Exeter, two significant attributes stood out. First, his ability to get over the try line from close in. Yes, theoretically it should be easy for a big bloke but how many English forwards (if any) are better at it? Second, when paired with Gray, it was almost always Hill who did the 80. With Itoje having such a superb engine, Hill's competitive edge with stamina should be ideal if properly coached. When it comes to maul and lineout Hill is simply a better physical presence than the other candidates. Others may have more spring but that does not count as much against France and SA, for example.

I just think Hill is another example of a player being badly prepared and used by England. Maybe it's simply a case of Borthwick having the nous and humility to chat with Baxter and Sanderson to find out how to get the best out of him.
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Puja
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Re: Sale vs Leicester - Sunday 3pm

Post by Puja »

FKAS wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 6:54 pm
Banquo wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 5:04 pm
FKAS wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 4:43 pm I thought Chessum was supposed to be touch and go for the world cup but expected to be back for the start of the season with Tigers? It's quite possible it's worse than that as I think it heard that after he first got injured.

I think Hill is a good option to have in a very physical game. You can normally rely on him to put a lot of big tackles in around the breakdown. It's when the game is played a bit wider I think he struggles, gets tired and makes poor decisions. He's a big bloke so possibly not the starting option if the opposition are going to move our pack around.

Ribbans and Martin are both good options. We do seem to lack a real top class lineout operator though.
Do you not count Itoje as such?
Itoje is pretty great at most things but would you really call him a lineout general akin to Kruis, Matfield, Kay etc?
I think there's a question of how you define "lineout operator" here. Itoje as a jumper and a threat to opposition ball? Absolutely, he's top drawer. As someone to command and call a lineout? Jury's out.

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Re: Sale vs Leicester - Sunday 3pm

Post by FKAS »

Puja wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 7:41 pm
FKAS wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 6:54 pm
Banquo wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 5:04 pm

Do you not count Itoje as such?
Itoje is pretty great at most things but would you really call him a lineout general akin to Kruis, Matfield, Kay etc?
I think there's a question of how you define "lineout operator" here. Itoje as a jumper and a threat to opposition ball? Absolutely, he's top drawer. As someone to command and call a lineout? Jury's out.

Puja
I'm thinking more of the latter. The lineout nause who's going to study hard in order to dominate on both sides of the lineout.
Banquo
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Re: Sale vs Leicester - Sunday 3pm

Post by Banquo »

FKAS wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 6:54 pm
Banquo wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 5:04 pm
FKAS wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 4:43 pm I thought Chessum was supposed to be touch and go for the world cup but expected to be back for the start of the season with Tigers? It's quite possible it's worse than that as I think it heard that after he first got injured.

I think Hill is a good option to have in a very physical game. You can normally rely on him to put a lot of big tackles in around the breakdown. It's when the game is played a bit wider I think he struggles, gets tired and makes poor decisions. He's a big bloke so possibly not the starting option if the opposition are going to move our pack around.

Ribbans and Martin are both good options. We do seem to lack a real top class lineout operator though.
Do you not count Itoje as such?
Itoje is pretty great at most things but would you really call him a lineout general akin to Kruis, Matfield, Kay etc?
He's a top class in the lineout, which appeared to be the original question.
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Re: Sale vs Leicester - Sunday 3pm

Post by Danno »

Oakboy wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 9:36 am
Banquo wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 9:24 am
Oakboy wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 9:13 am

Have you been ghost-writing for Brian Moore? :o

"The weekend was a throwback to times when two young fly-halves were strutting their stuff on the way to the top of English rugby. So much has been written and said about Owen Farrell and George Ford that just to see them simply playing, without the claustrophobic strictures of international rugby, was delightful, but tinged with one huge caveat, which we will address later.

Farrell, 31, splits opinion in the starkest of manners; very few are neutral about him or his performances. He is a wonderful footballer and the most tenacious of competitors. From almost first whistle to last against Northampton Saints he ran the game with a judicious mixture of belligerence, perception and precision. So much so that you had to wonder why anyone would see him as an international centre when he is so clearly a No 10.

In many ways Farrell’s game has developed along the lines of another great fly-half – Johnny Sexton. Initially a superb executor of game plans, a precision kicker, and a driver of men. You always wondered if he had to step outside this prescribed game whether he would have the necessary talent. Sexton has answered that question – he has.

On Saturday, like Sexton, you saw the more complete package, with Farrell’s probing kicks augmented by playing flat to the line and being a highly effective distributor. It left you wondering: what if Eddie Jones had let him play with this freedom and concentrated on finding a settled centre partnership outside him?

On Sunday, Farrell’s former schoolboy team-mate, Ford, put in a man-of-the-match performance to help Sale to the Premiership final in two weeks. Not a time for his attacking guile, this was a time to dig in and marshal the game into areas of the field that kept Leicester at bay.

Ford, 30, did this with aplomb. Sale director of rugby Alex Sanderson could not have been more effusive in his praise of Ford, saying an area of calmness surrounds him. He was like the rugby version of David Gower, someone who seems to have that bit more time than other players.

I have always had a sneaking respect for Sale – unfashionable, unapologetic and just very effective. They operate in the most difficult sporting environment possible, scrapping for every young player and fan, while surrounded by four big Premier League football teams and several Championship clubs.

In the final, Farrell and Ford will be pitted directly against each other and although this is a tantalising prospect, the truth is that the player who is given the front-foot ball to play with will probably come out on top.

Nonetheless, it will be fascinating to watch both trying to manage the game in its context. There is no doubt Sale do not have the same cup final experience as Saracens, but their obduracy could carry them a long way, provided they do not get blown away at the breakdown, like Northampton.

When historians come to write up this period of rugby, they might define a fault line that hampered England developing for long periods. None of this is the fault of Farrell or Ford, but the talent of both players has been such that under the former England head coaches, Stuart Lancaster and Jones, it was deemed necessary to have both in the same team. This led to many years where selectors did not force themselves to choose between the two, insisting that Ford played at fly-half and Farrell at inside centre.

This was nowhere near as productive as claimed. This is because the concept of two playmakers is overrated and for each time you can highlight when it worked, you can point to many more times when it did not.

Furthermore, when Farrell played at No 12, he did a job, but that should not be the measure. The assessment should consider what is lost when he does not play at No 10, and what someone else, a natural centre, could have done had they been given the time to develop a long-term partnership and whether those things, in aggregate, would have been more effective.

All this said, it will be a pleasure to watch two masters of their craft playing for English rugby’s biggest club prize."
Not sure you’d associate me with being complementary about Faz.
Yes, but 'the concept of two playmakers is overrated' and 'Farrell is not a 12' are straight from the 'Tim/Banquo playbook'!!!!
Since 2003: (not picking on you Dors), who else plays 12
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Re: Sale vs Leicester - Sunday 3pm

Post by Mellsblue »

Danno wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 11:13 pm
Oakboy wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 9:36 am
Banquo wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 9:24 am

Not sure you’d associate me with being complementary about Faz.
Yes, but 'the concept of two playmakers is overrated' and 'Farrell is not a 12' are straight from the 'Tim/Banquo playbook'!!!!
Since 2003: (not picking on you Dors), who else plays 12
Off the top of my head, in the last five years Jones wasted opportunities to look at Tompkins, Lawrence, M. Atkinson Redpath, J. Williams and Slade at 12. You could also make an argument for J. Simmonds if you’re happy to pick a Prem 10 at 12 for England.
I’m not saying any of those would be better 12s than Farrell, for various reasons, but given the amount of caps invested in the Farrell experiment…
It’s all a bit moot, for me, as I’d rather 10. Ford 12. Farrell then 10. Farrell 12. A. N. Other which is what would’ve happened if the test match ice man wasn’t picked at 12.
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Re: Sale vs Leicester - Sunday 3pm

Post by Oakboy »

Mellsblue wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 3:33 am
Danno wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 11:13 pm
Oakboy wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 9:36 am

Yes, but 'the concept of two playmakers is overrated' and 'Farrell is not a 12' are straight from the 'Tim/Banquo playbook'!!!!
Since 2003: (not picking on you Dors), who else plays 12
Off the top of my head, in the last five years Jones wasted opportunities to look at Tompkins, Lawrence, M. Atkinson Redpath, J. Williams and Slade at 12. You could also make an argument for J. Simmonds if you’re happy to pick a Prem 10 at 12 for England.
I’m not saying any of those would be better 12s than Farrell, for various reasons, but given the amount of caps invested in the Farrell experiment…
It’s all a bit moot, for me, as I’d rather 10. Ford 12. Farrell then 10. Farrell 12. A. N. Other which is what would’ve happened if the test match ice man wasn’t picked at 12.
Oh well, the board would be a waste of everyone's time if we all agreed. I think Moore is right that Farrell at 12 failed more often than it worked. He is also right that constantly picking him there suppressed coaching ambition. I would have persevered with Slade/Marchant.

The other factor that has stymied selection for years is the insistence on waiting for Tuilagi to be fit and that erroneous judgement has probably handed Farrell 20 caps or so at 12.

Was Lawrence's arrival in the shirt a fluke or long-awaited good judgement? My take on selection is that a head-coach has to dump tiring/ageing/injury-prone players earlier rather than later even if the team goes backwards before it goes forwards. The effect on a potential 12 in the squad knowing that he is just keeping Tuilagi's shirt warm for him is profound, IMO. It affects other young players too who see the situation at close quarters.

I'd not have Youngs, Cole, BV or MV near the squad, for example. Any head-coach who covers his rear by picking yesterday's men cannot expect the team to develop. Borthwick may have decided he had to be pragmatic for the 6N given his late appointment. I hope he does not continue that theme for the RWC whatever the consequences. The opportunity for younger alternatives to get WC experience is too important in the long-term.
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Re: Sale vs Leicester - Sunday 3pm

Post by Banquo »

Danno wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 11:13 pm
Oakboy wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 9:36 am
Banquo wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 9:24 am

Not sure you’d associate me with being complementary about Faz.
Yes, but 'the concept of two playmakers is overrated' and 'Farrell is not a 12' are straight from the 'Tim/Banquo playbook'!!!!
Since 2003: (not picking on you Dors), who else plays 12
still not faz mind he was only 12 in 2003.
16th man
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Re: Sale vs Leicester - Sunday 3pm

Post by 16th man »

Mikey Brown wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 10:55 am I'm sure it is informed, but it doesn't really express anything that you wouldn't get from a 5 word tweet simply saying "don't play Farrell at 12".
It does go a bit further to question if both Ford and Farrell may have developed to be even better if they had been forced to compete for one spot rather than the latter having the escape route of the 12 shirt, and the former having to then cope with a sub optimal partner.

He doesn't bite the hand that feeds by addressing the isssue, raised by some others, of how toxic the press, and some fans as well, might have gotten for any coach who went down that route, and was prepared to develop another 12 even if early results weren't great.

Basically they're the broadsheet version of Gerrard and Lampard.
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