23/24 Squad - confirmed

[Adam_P]

Haha aye

[Puja]

That's quite a deficit I'd say.

In terms of direct comparison, I see it something like this:

Langdon for Haywood - hard to call, but Haywood was at the end of his career and Langdon has good potential. Probably an improvement.

Mayanavanua for Ribbans - Ribbans obviously known quality, but I think the Fijian could be quality too. Probably a slight downgrade.

Odendaal for Proctor - similar in terms of quality, but in terms of the style we need I think this is a decent upgrade.

Seabrook for Collins - downgrade in my opinion.

Smith for Biggar - clear downgrade in terms of current capability and leadership, but good for the future.

Davison for Painter - bit of an upgrade

Then other leavers from the senior squad that are either replaced by senior academy additions (in brackets) or no one are:

Fish
Hinkley (Pollock - excellent potential)
Skosan (Cousins - another very bright prospect)
Nansen
Hobbs-Awoyemi

so a downgrade then

I don't think the acquisition of Odendaal should be underestimated. He is the missing link as far as that Saints backline is concerned and his direct running and picking of lines will open up so much more space for the players outside him. He'll make a huge difference.

Puja

[Banquo]

In terms of direct comparison, I see it something like this:

Langdon for Haywood - hard to call, but Haywood was at the end of his career and Langdon has good potential. Probably an improvement.

Mayanavanua for Ribbans - Ribbans obviously known quality, but I think the Fijian could be quality too. Probably a slight downgrade.

Odendaal for Proctor - similar in terms of quality, but in terms of the style we need I think this is a decent upgrade.

Seabrook for Collins - downgrade in my opinion.

Smith for Biggar - clear downgrade in terms of current capability and leadership, but good for the future.

Davison for Painter - bit of an upgrade

Then other leavers from the senior squad that are either replaced by senior academy additions (in brackets) or no one are:

Fish
Hinkley (Pollock - excellent potential)
Skosan (Cousins - another very bright prospect)
Nansen
Hobbs-Awoyemi

so a downgrade then

I don't think the acquisition of Odendaal should be underestimated. He is the missing link as far as that Saints backline is concerned and his direct running and picking of lines will open up so much more space for the players outside him. He'll make a huge difference.

Puja

messiah!

not sure opening up defences is top of Saints issues with the backline or team tbh. But always good to have another runner in midfield- Proctor a very good player too when fit to be fair.

[FKAS]

In terms of direct comparison, I see it something like this:

Langdon for Haywood - hard to call, but Haywood was at the end of his career and Langdon has good potential. Probably an improvement.

Mayanavanua for Ribbans - Ribbans obviously known quality, but I think the Fijian could be quality too. Probably a slight downgrade.

Odendaal for Proctor - similar in terms of quality, but in terms of the style we need I think this is a decent upgrade.

Seabrook for Collins - downgrade in my opinion.

Smith for Biggar - clear downgrade in terms of current capability and leadership, but good for the future.

Davison for Painter - bit of an upgrade

Then other leavers from the senior squad that are either replaced by senior academy additions (in brackets) or no one are:

Fish
Hinkley (Pollock - excellent potential)
Skosan (Cousins - another very bright prospect)
Nansen
Hobbs-Awoyemi

so a downgrade then

I don't think the acquisition of Odendaal should be underestimated. He is the missing link as far as that Saints backline is concerned and his direct running and picking of lines will open up so much more space for the players outside him. He'll make a huge difference.

Puja

Odendaal is a great signing. A little bit like a poor man's van Rensburg at LI. He'll add some much needed physicality to the Saints defence and maybe add some actual organisation to proceedings which is a dangerous thought. He ran some great lines in his short time at Wasps and really fit in well with their attack so I'd imagine Vesty will get a lot out of him.

Almost certainly a lot cheaper than Proctor and probably more useful.

[Banquo]

so a downgrade then

I don't think the acquisition of Odendaal should be underestimated. He is the missing link as far as that Saints backline is concerned and his direct running and picking of lines will open up so much more space for the players outside him. He'll make a huge difference.

Puja

Odendaal is a great signing. A little bit like a poor man's van Rensburg at LI. He'll add some much needed physicality to the Saints defence and maybe add some actual organisation to proceedings which is a dangerous thought. He ran some great lines in his short time at Wasps and really fit in well with their attack so I'd imagine Vesty will get a lot out of him.

Almost certainly a lot cheaper than Proctor and probably more useful.

I can't get very excited about a 30 year old SA journeyman- albeit as good as a poor man's Van Rensburg- but I guess that's what the prem is becoming

Seriously, he will do a job. But.....

[Mikey Brown]

What if he happens to also be a good defence coach?

[Banquo]

What if he happens to also be a good defence coach?

That'd be great. I didn't know he had coaching badges tbf.

[Puja]

I don't think the acquisition of Odendaal should be underestimated. He is the missing link as far as that Saints backline is concerned and his direct running and picking of lines will open up so much more space for the players outside him. He'll make a huge difference.

Puja

Odendaal is a great signing. A little bit like a poor man's van Rensburg at LI. He'll add some much needed physicality to the Saints defence and maybe add some actual organisation to proceedings which is a dangerous thought. He ran some great lines in his short time at Wasps and really fit in well with their attack so I'd imagine Vesty will get a lot out of him.

Almost certainly a lot cheaper than Proctor and probably more useful.

I can't get very excited about a 30 year old SA journeyman- albeit as good as a poor man's Van Rensburg- but I guess that's what the prem is becoming

Seriously, he will do a job. But.....

I'd rate him more as a poor man's Esterhuizen myself, but the issue is more what Saints specifically need, which is a fast, hard-running, physical threat to fix the defence. They've been operating without a player who offers a physical threat to get them over the gainline for the last couple of years, which means that they always have to go to their forwards on slower ball, which impacts the rest of the game. To my mind, he's the missing puzzle piece to make them a real threat to the top of the table.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

We are still talking about top try scorers Northampton Saints?

[Banquo]

Odendaal is a great signing. A little bit like a poor man's van Rensburg at LI. He'll add some much needed physicality to the Saints defence and maybe add some actual organisation to proceedings which is a dangerous thought. He ran some great lines in his short time at Wasps and really fit in well with their attack so I'd imagine Vesty will get a lot out of him.

Almost certainly a lot cheaper than Proctor and probably more useful.

I can't get very excited about a 30 year old SA journeyman- albeit as good as a poor man's Van Rensburg- but I guess that's what the prem is becoming

Seriously, he will do a job. But.....

I'd rate him more as a poor man's Esterhuizen myself, but the issue is more what Saints specifically need, which is a fast, hard-running, physical threat to fix the defence. They've been operating without a player who offers a physical threat to get them over the gainline for the last couple of years, which means that they always have to go to their forwards on slower ball, which impacts the rest of the game. To my mind, he's the missing puzzle piece to make them a real threat to the top of the table.

Puja

...and as I said, scoring isn't Saints issue, and Proctor when fit has been that presence; shipping points is their big issue, as well as oft getting battered up front. I'm not saying no to a physical presence being handy in midfield- love a boshing 12 say- but its not the midfield attack that needs shoring up. its defence there, and if he brings that, great. Dingwall has a hell of a lot to do when Hutchinson is there, its true. Interesting that he (Dingwall) has made it into a few teams of the season (BT, DT so far) at 12- I don't think he's had as good a time as last year tbh, but a strong finish has helped- classy player who gets over the gainline at 12, despite not being huge.

Though I would say, the way they attack in the backs is going to lead to turnovers, so there is that. They may end up tightening how they play, and so may score less tries.....which is fine if the defence gets much tighter.

(btw, looks like he's about 3st lighter than Andre the giant. Now, he's a player to get excited about!).

[Puja]

I can't get very excited about a 30 year old SA journeyman- albeit as good as a poor man's Van Rensburg- but I guess that's what the prem is becoming

Seriously, he will do a job. But.....

I'd rate him more as a poor man's Esterhuizen myself, but the issue is more what Saints specifically need, which is a fast, hard-running, physical threat to fix the defence. They've been operating without a player who offers a physical threat to get them over the gainline for the last couple of years, which means that they always have to go to their forwards on slower ball, which impacts the rest of the game. To my mind, he's the missing puzzle piece to make them a real threat to the top of the table.

Puja

...and as I said, scoring isn't Saints issue, and Proctor when fit has been that presence; shipping points is their big issue, as well as oft getting battered up front. I'm not saying no to a physical presence being handy in midfield- love a boshing 12 say- but its not the midfield attack that needs shoring up. its defence there, and if he brings that, great. Dingwall has a hell of a lot to do when Hutchinson is there, its true. Interesting that he (Dingwall) has made it into a few teams of the season (BT, DT so far) at 12- I don't think he's had as good a time as last year tbh, but a strong finish has helped- classy player who gets over the gainline at 12, despite not being huge.

Though I would say, the way they attack in the backs is going to lead to turnovers, so there is that. They may end up tightening how they play, and so may score less tries.....which is fine if the defence gets much tighter.

(btw, looks like he's about 3st lighter than Andre the giant. Now, he's a player to get excited about!).

I was more making the point that they're having to exhaust the back 5 of the scrum by putting so much of the hard carrying and dummy-running workload on them, so having him will help with games like the semi-final where they were blasted off rucks and missed crucial tackles through being slow getting into position.

Puja

[rjjb]

Are all 10 squads finalised now? Presumably Van Rensburg is going to be a free agent again in a couple of weeks?

[Puja]

Are all 10 squads finalised now? Presumably Van Rensburg is going to be a free agent again in a couple of weeks?

I was wondering the other day whether any DoRs were deliberately leaving room in their budgets just in case Irish went down. Arundell, Van Rensberg, Joseph, Pearson, CCS, Loader - there's a lot of valuable players who could be going for a bargain if there's room for them, but then do you risk having an underpowered squad if Irish survive and there's no-one to buy?

Puja

[Mellsblue]

Rumours are that there will be limited cap exemptions to allow clubs to sign LI players.

[FKAS]

Are all 10 squads finalised now? Presumably Van Rensburg is going to be a free agent again in a couple of weeks?

I was wondering the other day whether any DoRs were deliberately leaving room in their budgets just in case Irish went down. Arundell, Van Rensberg, Joseph, Pearson, CCS, Loader - there's a lot of valuable players who could be going for a bargain if there's room for them, but then do you risk having an underpowered squad if Irish survive and there's no-one to buy?

Puja

In the current market there's always players to buy. There's always some barely heard of RWC bolters to go after as well. I wouldn't be surprised if a few DORs have kept a little back just in case and also against any world cup related injuries that need to be covered. Might not want to use all the injury dispensation allowance to early in the season.

[Banquo]

I'd rate him more as a poor man's Esterhuizen myself, but the issue is more what Saints specifically need, which is a fast, hard-running, physical threat to fix the defence. They've been operating without a player who offers a physical threat to get them over the gainline for the last couple of years, which means that they always have to go to their forwards on slower ball, which impacts the rest of the game. To my mind, he's the missing puzzle piece to make them a real threat to the top of the table.

Puja

...and as I said, scoring isn't Saints issue, and Proctor when fit has been that presence; shipping points is their big issue, as well as oft getting battered up front. I'm not saying no to a physical presence being handy in midfield- love a boshing 12 say- but its not the midfield attack that needs shoring up. its defence there, and if he brings that, great. Dingwall has a hell of a lot to do when Hutchinson is there, its true. Interesting that he (Dingwall) has made it into a few teams of the season (BT, DT so far) at 12- I don't think he's had as good a time as last year tbh, but a strong finish has helped- classy player who gets over the gainline at 12, despite not being huge.

Though I would say, the way they attack in the backs is going to lead to turnovers, so there is that. They may end up tightening how they play, and so may score less tries.....which is fine if the defence gets much tighter.

(btw, looks like he's about 3st lighter than Andre the giant. Now, he's a player to get excited about!).

I was more making the point that they're having to exhaust the back 5 of the scrum by putting so much of the hard carrying and dummy-running workload on them, so having him will help with games like the semi-final where they were blasted off rucks and missed crucial tackles through being slow getting into position.

Puja

not convinced about your assessment of relative workloads, both watching and looking at stats even in the sarries game. But hey, we can disagree- and I`m sure he will be good, just not convinced he will make a step change to saints pressing-lol- issues.

[Spiffy]

Odendaal is a great signing. A little bit like a poor man's van Rensburg at LI. He'll add some much needed physicality to the Saints defence and maybe add some actual organisation to proceedings which is a dangerous thought. He ran some great lines in his short time at Wasps and really fit in well with their attack so I'd imagine Vesty will get a lot out of him.

Almost certainly a lot cheaper than Proctor and probably more useful.

I can't get very excited about a 30 year old SA journeyman- albeit as good as a poor man's Van Rensburg- but I guess that's what the prem is becoming

Seriously, he will do a job. But.....

I'd rate him more as a poor man's Esterhuizen myself, but the issue is more what Saints specifically need, which is a fast, hard-running, physical threat to fix the defence. They've been operating without a player who offers a physical threat to get them over the gainline for the last couple of years, which means that they always have to go to their forwards on slower ball, which impacts the rest of the game. To my mind, he's the missing puzzle piece to make them a real threat to the top of the table.

Puja

Perhaps a bit early to big him up for the Saints. We'll see how he goes. But why are we not seeing homegrown, big, strong hard-running 12's in English rugby?

[FKAS]

Spiffy, you mean like Kelly, Ma'asi White, Lawrence? They are being produced but Saints can't seem to make them work. Lichfield has stalled at Saints, he's a hard running centre. Ethan Grayson looked to have a bit of everything (though isn't what you'd describe as big) and has been released. Proctor is leaving and taking a lot of experience from the backline with him, bringing in some experience and in a different style of centre to the two that are the mainstay of the Saints backline makes sense.

I'm still not convinced that Saints actually employ a defence coach. Watching their current midfield operate you'd struggle to see much in the way of connectivity or tackle technique.

[Which Tyler]

Perhaps a bit early to big him up for the Saints. We'll see how he goes. But why are we not seeing homegrown, big, strong hard-running 12's in English rugby?

BEcause when we get one, we convert then into the backrow; freeing up a backrower to move to hooker

[Puja]

Perhaps a bit early to big him up for the Saints. We'll see how he goes. But why are we not seeing homegrown, big, strong hard-running 12's in English rugby?

BEcause when we get one, we convert then into the backrow; freeing up a backrower to move to being an ice-cold fly-half.

FTFY

Puja

[Mellsblue]

Perhaps a bit early to big him up for the Saints. We'll see how he goes. But why are we not seeing homegrown, big, strong hard-running 12's in English rugby?

BEcause when we get one, we convert then into the backrow; freeing up a backrower to move to being an ice-cold fly-half and shunting two natural, attacking flyhalfs to 15 and/or Bristol

FTFY

Puja

FTFY

[Banquo]

Spiffy, you mean like Kelly, Ma'asi White, Lawrence? They are being produced but Saints can't seem to make them work.

I'm still not convinced that Saints actually employ a defence coach. Watching their current midfield operate you'd struggle to see much in the way of connectivity or tackle technique.

Lol, good one.

(Though I agree Saints defence is shocking. Hutchinson is really poor at 13 especially)

[Scrumhead]

Spiffy, you mean like Kelly, Ma'asi White, Lawrence? They are being produced but Saints can't seem to make them work. Lichfield has stalled at Saints, he's a hard running centre. Ethan Grayson looked to have a bit of everything (though isn't what you'd describe as big) and has been released. Proctor is leaving and taking a lot of experience from the backline with him, bringing in some experience and in a different style of centre to the two that are the mainstay of the Saints backline makes sense.

I'm still not convinced that Saints actually employ a defence coach. Watching their current midfield operate you'd struggle to see much in the way of connectivity or tackle technique.

To be fair, out of those you mentioned, only Kelly is primarily playing at 12. Lawrence is playing there more (presumably on request from England) but his best position is still 13. Ma’asi White has definitely payed more at 13.

The obvious one missing is Seb Atkinson who is exclusively playing at 12. He’s big, but whether he is ‘hard running’ might be up for debate.

If Wales don’t capture Max Llewelyn this summer, he might become another to consider, but I hate poaching and my bigger concern is that he might take game time away from Atkinson.

Rather than the current crop, I think Spiffy is probably referring to the wider mystery of why 12 is consistently a problem position for England. We just very rarely seem to have more than 1 or 2 OK options.

[Banquo]

Spiffy, you mean like Kelly, Ma'asi White, Lawrence? They are being produced but Saints can't seem to make them work. Lichfield has stalled at Saints, he's a hard running centre. Ethan Grayson looked to have a bit of everything (though isn't what you'd describe as big) and has been released. Proctor is leaving and taking a lot of experience from the backline with him, bringing in some experience and in a different style of centre to the two that are the mainstay of the Saints backline makes sense.

I'm still not convinced that Saints actually employ a defence coach. Watching their current midfield operate you'd struggle to see much in the way of connectivity or tackle technique.

To be fair, out of those you mentioned, only Kelly is primarily playing at 12. Lawrence is playing there more (presumably on request from England) but his best position is still 13. Ma’asi White has definitely payed more at 13.

The obvious one missing is Seb Atkinson who is exclusively playing at 12. He’s big, but whether he is ‘hard running’ might be up for debate.

If Wales don’t capture Max Llewelyn this summer, he might become another to consider, but I hate poaching and my bigger concern is that he might take game time away from Atkinson.

Rather than the current crop, I think Spiffy is probably referring to the wider mystery of why 12 is consistently a problem position for England. We just very rarely seem to have more than 1 or 2 OK options.

well quite. Not sure you can say Saints are the only ones having eqp issues there. Personally I think its because the 2nd 2/8th second playmaker style of i/c became in vogue for some reason. So we ended up withn failed 10's there

[Which Tyler]

Lawrence is playing there more (presumably on request from England) but his best position is still 13.

Err... he's played 12 once for Bath (alongside JJ) - is that really "playing there more"?