European Cup returning to sensible (ish) format

[Puja]

https://www.epcrugby.com/2023/06/14/202 ... announced/

4 pools of 6, but instead of that being 5 pool games as you'd expect, it's only 4 pool games because you'll be placed with one other club from your league and you won't play them because... reasons? It'll then be top 4 from each pool qualify for the last 16 and then carry on from there for normal knock-outs.

It's... better, I guess? Not by a large amount, but it is very slightly better. I'd've been much more in favour of playing a fifth pool game and then just going straight to quarter finals - 4 qualifying from 6 doesn't feel like the pool stages are very challenging to qualify from, which makes them somewhat pointless.

I still miss 6 pools of 4 and home/away fixtures. The virtue of this is it's only 8 fixtures in a crowded season, which is good, but the downside is that it's still weird to a casual fan. Far rather squeeze in a 10 fixture competition and have something that makes sense.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

Yeah, I’ve no idea why they haven’t gone back to the original format.

[Puja]

Yeah, I’ve no idea why they haven’t gone back to the original format.

I think their argument was that the pool stages stretched out too long and had dead rubbers towards the end. Which I do understand, but this isn't a huge amount better for that and a lot worse in other ways.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

I’m telling you what you already know but… there is no perfect solution. The simple/usual/normal/good enough for every other comp group stages had a good narrative and also produced some win or bust final group matches to balance out the dead rubbers. Most importantly, it’s easy to follow and understand for the non rugby nauses.
All that said, I hope I’m wrong.

[Which Tyler]

My favoured is always going to be:
6 from URC, 5 from T14, 4 from Prem + reigning champions. Arranged into 4 pools of 4.
Top 2 go through to the Cup QFs, bottom 2 go to the Plate QFs (no dropping down to the Challenge Cup).

Ideally Challenge Cup can be 4 pools of 4; 6 from URC, 6 from T14, 4 from Prem.

Tier 3 can then be the remaining 3-4 URC, the remaining 1-2 from T14 and the remaining 1-2 from Prem; with 8 others (maybe top 2 from ProD2 and Championship + Georgia, Portugal, Romania & Spain?)


Not perfect (mostly because each league wants more teams in there, to maintain interest in their own league's mid-table), but my preference, tight, simple, everyone gets a QF, shouldn't be any major mis-matches.

[Puja]

My favoured is always going to be:
6 from URC, 5 from T14, 4 from Prem + reigning champions. Arranged into 4 pools of 4.
Top 2 go through to the Cup QFs, bottom 2 go to the Plate QFs (no dropping down to the Challenge Cup).

Ideally Challenge Cup can be 4 pools of 4; 6 from URC, 6 from T14, 4 from Prem.

Tier 3 can then be the remaining 3-4 URC, the remaining 1-2 from T14 and the remaining 1-2 from Prem; with 8 others (maybe top 2 from ProD2 and Championship + Georgia, Portugal, Romania & Spain?)


Not perfect, but my preference, tight, simple, everyone gets a QF, shouldn't be any major mis-matches.

Well, your long-held proposition of a 10-team Prem with a cup competition including the Champ appears to be coming to fruition, so I'll expect to see this in 2033 with some similar kind of monkey's-paw horrible event making it happen.

Puja

[Cameo]

My favoured is always going to be:
6 from URC, 5 from T14, 4 from Prem + reigning champions. Arranged into 4 pools of 4.
Top 2 go through to the Cup QFs, bottom 2 go to the Plate QFs (no dropping down to the Challenge Cup).

Ideally Challenge Cup can be 4 pools of 4; 6 from URC, 6 from T14, 4 from Prem.

Tier 3 can then be the remaining 3-4 URC, the remaining 1-2 from T14 and the remaining 1-2 from Prem; with 8 others (maybe top 2 from ProD2 and Championship + Georgia, Portugal, Romania & Spain?)


Not perfect (mostly because each league wants more teams in there, to maintain interest in their own league's mid-table), but my preference, tight, simple, everyone gets a QF, shouldn't be any major mis-matches.

That would be so much better.

I'll admit I have lost a bit of interest in the Champions Cup but I follow rugby pretty closely. It is not a good sign if I read the explanation of the new format a couple of times and think "meh, a bunch of teams will play each other then it might get interesting from last 16 onwards". At least if they kept it to the same pool structure but everyone played everyone and then only top two go through you would have a bit of jeopardy as well as almost fairness.

Was going to say very handy if you are from the same country as the top seeded team in your group too - but frankly if you are relying on that to get into the top 4 in a six team group, you are probably not getting past the last 16 anyway.

[Puja]

Was going to say very handy if you are from the same country as the top seeded team in your group too - but frankly if you are relying on that to get into the top 4 in a six team group, you are probably not getting past the last 16 anyway.

I was thinking that the new structure was a bit of a disadvantage for English teams actually - we always end up tossing in 1 or 2 teams that've either fallen away from last season's form, or just don't have any interest in competing in Europe, and it's a disadvantage to our other teams if they're the only ones that don't get to play them!

Puja

[Puja]

Pool 1: Saracens, Union Bordeaux-Begles, Bulls, Bristol Bears, Connacht, Lyon

Pool 2: Toulouse, Cardiff, Bath, Racing 92, Harlequins, Ulster

Pool 3: Munster, Aviron Bayonnais, Glasgow Warriors, Exeter Chiefs, Toulon, Northampton Saints

Pool 4: La Rochelle, Leinster, Stade Francais, Leicester Tigers, Stormers, Sale Sharks


Welp, we can now write off Leicester and Sale's European campaigns next season. What a ridiculous draw - La Rochelle, Leinster, Stormers, with Sale/Leicester probably being the "easiest" teams in the pool, but whom the other English side don't even get to play!

I think Bath could be in with a shout of a home last 16 game though. None of the pools are *easy*, but it's a fair step back from the rabid bunch of wolves populating Pool 4.

Puja

[fivepointer]

Tough for all our teams. Saracens might be the best placed but its going to depend a bit on who you draw at home.

Pool 4 looks horrendous for Tigers and Sale.

[Mellsblue]

It’s going to get ugly.

[Which Tyler]

I think Bath could be in with a shout of a home last 16 game though. None of the pools are *easy*, but it's a fair step back from the rabid bunch of wolves populating Pool 4.

The key for me, is that we've avoided any Saffers - so I can pretend to myself that it's an actual European Cup - just one with weird pools; until we hit the QFs anyway. I can properly watch Pools 2 & 3

We'll see if my interest is piqued; it really hasn't been for the last couple of years of weirdness and pretending that South Africa is on the European continental shelf.

[Tigger]

Pool 1: Saracens, Union Bordeaux-Begles, Bulls, Bristol Bears, Connacht, Lyon

Pool 2: Toulouse, Cardiff, Bath, Racing 92, Harlequins, Ulster

Pool 3: Munster, Aviron Bayonnais, Glasgow Warriors, Exeter Chiefs, Toulon, Northampton Saints

Pool 4: La Rochelle, Leinster, Stade Francais, Leicester Tigers, Stormers, Sale Sharks


Welp, we can now write off Leicester and Sale's European campaigns next season. What a ridiculous draw - La Rochelle, Leinster, Stormers, with Sale/Leicester probably being the "easiest" teams in the pool, but whom the other English side don't even get to play!

I think Bath could be in with a shout of a home last 16 game though. None of the pools are *easy*, but it's a fair step back from the rabid bunch of wolves populating Pool 4.

Puja

Fuck me.

[FKAS]

Clutching desperately at straws, could be a couple of cracking away trips for the fans.

If McKellar gets us out of that group he'll be a fan favourite.

[Puja]

Clutching desperately at straws, could be a couple of cracking away trips for the fans.

If McKellar gets us out of that group he'll be a fan favourite.

Out of that group is definitely possible - just need to finish 4th out of 6, so a win against Stade Francais and a bonus point or two might be enough. However, that would lead to us getting the worst draw possible in the next round, so it might be short-lived.

I think our best hope is getting Stormers at home and hoping they travel as well as they did to Exeter.

Puja

[FKAS]

Clutching desperately at straws, could be a couple of cracking away trips for the fans.

If McKellar gets us out of that group he'll be a fan favourite.

Out of that group is definitely possible - just need to finish 4th out of 6, so a win against Stade Francais and a bonus point or two might be enough. However, that would lead to us getting the worst draw possible in the next round, so it might be short-lived.

I think our best hope is getting Stormers at home and hoping they travel as well as they did to Exeter.

Puja

Good point, the French and SA sides don't always travel well. If we can't be drawn against teams from our own group for the next round then finishing fourth isn't the end of the world. Toulouse would blow us away but we'd have a passable chance against any other side. Leinster and La Rochelle are the ones to avoid but that isn't happening now.

[Mellsblue]

Pool 4 looks horrendous for Tigers and Sale.

Imagine if one or both draw Bedford in the domestic cup. Poor buggers.

[Puja]

Fixtures are out: https://www.epcrugby.com/champions-cup/ ... d-results/

Leicester get Stormers at home, Stade Francais and La Rochelle away, and then Leinster at home. That could be a lot worse - having Stormers at home is a major advantage and, while I'd prefer to have SF at home to maximise our chances of two wins, they're not insuperable away from home. Get two victories first up and we'll get through to the second round. Poor Sale have SF home, Leinster away, Stormers away, then La Rochelle at home, which strikes me as one of the worst possibilities.

Saracens are playing the Bulls away while Bristol get them at home.

Puja