Titanic sub

[Donny osmond]

The thing I don't get the most about this whole, horrible, thing, is that these guys paid a quarter of a million pounds each to go 2.4 miles under water too look at the Titanic... via a TV screen? If you've seen the pictures taken of the wreck, you've had as a good a view of the Titanic as these poor souls were ever going to get, you've saved yourself a quarter mill, and you've reduced the possibility of a horrendous death inevitably followed by a shite Hollywood film.

[Sandydragon]

The thing I don't get the most about this whole, horrible, thing, is that these guys paid a quarter of a million pounds each to go 2.4 miles under water too look at the Titanic... via a TV screen? If you've seen the pictures taken of the wreck, you've had as a good a view of the Titanic as these poor souls were ever going to get, you've saved yourself a quarter mill, and you've reduced the possibility of a horrendous death inevitably followed by a shite Hollywood film.

Yep, don’t get it. Hopefully they can still be rescued but from what I’ve read the chances are pretty slim.

[morepork]

Most irresponsible tourist jolly ever. It's a great metaphor for the free market riding roughshod over expertise. Like a failing bank, this will be bailed out by public service from at least 3 different countries.

[Stom]

Most irresponsible tourist jolly ever. It's a great metaphor for the free market riding roughshod over expertise. Like a failing bank, this will be bailed out by public service from at least 3 different countries.

We've just got to wait for Elon Musk to offer to go down there in his special anti-trans sub, designed to purify the waters of any possible trans while at the same time feeding his ego further.

But don't worry, he's not a pedo narcissist, he's doing the best for those poor rich people in the sub. The operator must be a pedo, though, it's the only option.

[Puja]

Most irresponsible tourist jolly ever. It's a great metaphor for the free market riding roughshod over expertise. Like a failing bank, this will be bailed out by public service from at least 3 different countries.

And meanwhile hundreds died in the boat off Greece, but no-one gave a fuck about trying to help them because they were refugees.

Puja

[Sandydragon]

When the refugee crisis from Syria first hit the news it was a huge story, remember the picture of the little girl who drowned? Now it’s lost its newsworthy impact- whereas this story is a bit more unusual. There was a similar level of interest in the fate of the Kursk, there’s something that attracts the interest more when there’s a count down clock ticking to disaster, it fits the 24/7 news agenda perfectly.

I don’t like this sensationalist bias in the media but that’s where we are.

[Puja]

When the refugee crisis from Syria first hit the news it was a huge story, remember the picture of the little girl who drowned? Now it’s lost its newsworthy impact- whereas this story is a bit more unusual. There was a similar level of interest in the fate of the Kursk, there’s something that attracts the interest more when there’s a count down clock ticking to disaster, it fits the 24/7 news agenda perfectly.

I don’t like this sensationalist bias in the media but that’s where we are.

Huge story, yes, but where were the national navies desperately trying to save every precious life?

Puja

[Donny osmond]

Turns out there wasn't a countdown at all, we were looking for a submersible that had catastrophically imploded before any of the search teams ever got there.

[Mellsblue]

Probably best for those onboard.

[Donny osmond]

[quote=Puja post_id=296735 time=1687424325 user_id=78]
[quote=Sandydragon post_id=296733 time=1687421913 user_id=63]
When the refugee crisis from Syria first hit the news it was a huge story, remember the picture of the little girl who drowned? Now it’s lost its newsworthy impact- whereas this story is a bit more unusual. There was a similar level of interest in the fate of the Kursk, there’s something that attracts the interest more when there’s a count down clock ticking to disaster, it fits the 24/7 news agenda perfectly.

I don’t like this sensationalist bias in the media but that’s where we are.
[/quote]

Huge story, yes, but where were the national navies desperately trying to save every precious life?

Puja
[/quote]

Without wishing to defend anyone - the way Europe 'handles' refugee boats is disgusting - but in that recent disaster offers of help were repeatedly rejected by the occupants of the refugee boat, and in terms of rescue there were two other boats right alongside when it happened. If those on the boat are going to lock passengers up below deck right before the boat capsizes and sinks, I dont know that having specialist rescuers anywhere other than right on top as it sinks is going to be effective.

Like I say, how we - European govts and populations - react to refugee boats is disgusting. There are important discussions to be had about why the offers of help were rejected (I would guess people being frightened of being immediately taken back) and how to approach similar situations in future, but I dont think it's comparable enough to draw parallels between the reactions.

[Donny osmond]

Probably best for those onboard.

Absolutely, would have been over in the blink of an eye.

[Sandydragon]

When the refugee crisis from Syria first hit the news it was a huge story, remember the picture of the little girl who drowned? Now it’s lost its newsworthy impact- whereas this story is a bit more unusual. There was a similar level of interest in the fate of the Kursk, there’s something that attracts the interest more when there’s a count down clock ticking to disaster, it fits the 24/7 news agenda perfectly.

I don’t like this sensationalist bias in the media but that’s where we are.

Huge story, yes, but where were the national navies desperately trying to save every precious life?

Puja

That’s unfair. There were plenty of naval vessels and coastguards working to pull survivors from the water. If there wasn’t the global mobilisation it’s because it wasn’t needed. You don’t need specialist kit to save migrants on a sinking ship in the med, just any boat in the immediate area.

[Sandydragon]

Turns out there wasn't a countdown at all, we were looking for a submersible that had catastrophically imploded before any of the search teams ever got there.

Better than slow suffocation.

[Sandydragon]

When the refugee crisis from Syria first hit the news it was a huge story, remember the picture of the little girl who drowned? Now it’s lost its newsworthy impact- whereas this story is a bit more unusual. There was a similar level of interest in the fate of the Kursk, there’s something that attracts the interest more when there’s a count down clock ticking to disaster, it fits the 24/7 news agenda perfectly.

I don’t like this sensationalist bias in the media but that’s where we are.

Huge story, yes, but where were the national navies desperately trying to save every precious life?

Puja

That’s unfair. There were plenty of naval vessels and coastguards working to pull survivors from the water. If there wasn’t the global mobilisation it’s because it wasn’t needed. You don’t need specialist kit to save migrants on a sinking ship in the med, just any boat in the immediate area.

In fact, there’s been a standing naval patrol in the Mediterranean (formerly operation Sophia now Irini) whose mission is to stop people trafficking and to rescue those who need it. They have been there since 2015

So far more resources thrown at sinking ships in the Mediterranean than one lost sub in the North Atlantic.

[Puja]

Huge story, yes, but where were the national navies desperately trying to save every precious life?

Puja

That’s unfair. There were plenty of naval vessels and coastguards working to pull survivors from the water. If there wasn’t the global mobilisation it’s because it wasn’t needed. You don’t need specialist kit to save migrants on a sinking ship in the med, just any boat in the immediate area.

In fact, there’s been a standing naval patrol in the Mediterranean (formerly operation Sophia now Irini) whose mission is to stop people trafficking and to rescue those who need it. They have been there since 2015

So far more resources thrown at sinking ships in the Mediterranean than one lost sub in the North Atlantic.

Operation Irini is three ships for the entire Mediterranean. Granted, it is a standing patrol, so we're not comparing apples-to-apples when talking timescale, but there were 11 ships scrambled to try and rescue 4 billionaires and one scientist.

And, let's be clear, these were rich people who went down to play tourist and gawp at a mass gravesite, specifically a gravesite where most of the dead were poor people who were abandoned because their lives were worth less than the rich people who were given priority. These were people engaged in an act of both stupidity and turpitude and I have very little sympathy for them.

However, both you and Donny are right in that the two are very definitely apples and oranges and it's not really appropriate to draw comparisons, especially with the complexity of the refugee situation. I'm just embarrassed that rich white people were apparently, "Must save at any cost" levels of important, but you are correct that it's not sensible to draw comparisons.

Puja

[Stom]

That’s unfair. There were plenty of naval vessels and coastguards working to pull survivors from the water. If there wasn’t the global mobilisation it’s because it wasn’t needed. You don’t need specialist kit to save migrants on a sinking ship in the med, just any boat in the immediate area.

In fact, there’s been a standing naval patrol in the Mediterranean (formerly operation Sophia now Irini) whose mission is to stop people trafficking and to rescue those who need it. They have been there since 2015

So far more resources thrown at sinking ships in the Mediterranean than one lost sub in the North Atlantic.

Operation Irini is three ships for the entire Mediterranean. Granted, it is a standing patrol, so we're not comparing apples-to-apples when talking timescale, but there were 11 ships scrambled to try and rescue 4 billionaires and one scientist.

And, let's be clear, these were rich people who went down to play tourist and gawp at a mass gravesite, specifically a gravesite where most of the dead were poor people who were abandoned because their lives were worth less than the rich people who were given priority. These were people engaged in an act of both stupidity and turpitude and I have very little sympathy for them.

However, both you and Donny are right in that the two are very definitely apples and oranges and it's not really appropriate to draw comparisons, especially with the complexity of the refugee situation. I'm just embarrassed that rich white people were apparently, "Must save at any cost" levels of important, but you are correct that it's not sensible to draw comparisons.

Puja

A LOT of people feel very much that there should not have been an attempt at all, and that they deserved it...

I'm not saying I agree with that, but I do feel like it's a symbol: people are starting to get to critical mass in the haves/have nots. It's not a good situation, globally, even though the UK isn't so bad compared to the US or here in Hungary,

[morepork]

The Free Market will provide......compromised 'elf and safety in pursuit of the mighty dollar. Every. Fucking. Time.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65998914

Whitey on the Moon.

[Sandydragon]

In fact, there’s been a standing naval patrol in the Mediterranean (formerly operation Sophia now Irini) whose mission is to stop people trafficking and to rescue those who need it. They have been there since 2015

So far more resources thrown at sinking ships in the Mediterranean than one lost sub in the North Atlantic.

Operation Irini is three ships for the entire Mediterranean. Granted, it is a standing patrol, so we're not comparing apples-to-apples when talking timescale, but there were 11 ships scrambled to try and rescue 4 billionaires and one scientist.

And, let's be clear, these were rich people who went down to play tourist and gawp at a mass gravesite, specifically a gravesite where most of the dead were poor people who were abandoned because their lives were worth less than the rich people who were given priority. These were people engaged in an act of both stupidity and turpitude and I have very little sympathy for them.

However, both you and Donny are right in that the two are very definitely apples and oranges and it's not really appropriate to draw comparisons, especially with the complexity of the refugee situation. I'm just embarrassed that rich white people were apparently, "Must save at any cost" levels of important, but you are correct that it's not sensible to draw comparisons.

Puja

A LOT of people feel very much that there should not have been an attempt at all, and that they deserved it...

I'm not saying I agree with that, but I do feel like it's a symbol: people are starting to get to critical mass in the haves/have nots. It's not a good situation, globally, even though the UK isn't so bad compared to the US or here in Hungary,

Human life is human life. Judging someone by the size of their bank balance is always a disgusting thing to be doing.

The rescue attempt was worth a go even if the odds were very slim. Same as when there’s an earthquake somewhere and the international search teams fly in. I’d rather they try than just assume it’s all too difficult, or that the survivors might be the wrong type of people.

[Sandydragon]

The Free Market will provide......compromised 'elf and safety in pursuit of the mighty dollar. Every. Fucking. Time.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65998914

Whitey on the Moon.

The company is denying this of course but I smell a legal challenge on the horizon.

[morepork]

Billionaires litigating against their own unfettered access to privilege.


Delicious.

[Sandydragon]

That’s unfair. There were plenty of naval vessels and coastguards working to pull survivors from the water. If there wasn’t the global mobilisation it’s because it wasn’t needed. You don’t need specialist kit to save migrants on a sinking ship in the med, just any boat in the immediate area.

In fact, there’s been a standing naval patrol in the Mediterranean (formerly operation Sophia now Irini) whose mission is to stop people trafficking and to rescue those who need it. They have been there since 2015

So far more resources thrown at sinking ships in the Mediterranean than one lost sub in the North Atlantic.

Operation Irini is three ships for the entire Mediterranean. Granted, it is a standing patrol, so we're not comparing apples-to-apples when talking timescale, but there were 11 ships scrambled to try and rescue 4 billionaires and one scientist.

And, let's be clear, these were rich people who went down to play tourist and gawp at a mass gravesite, specifically a gravesite where most of the dead were poor people who were abandoned because their lives were worth less than the rich people who were given priority. These were people engaged in an act of both stupidity and turpitude and I have very little sympathy for them.

However, both you and Donny are right in that the two are very definitely apples and oranges and it's not really appropriate to draw comparisons, especially with the complexity of the refugee situation. I'm just embarrassed that rich white people were apparently, "Must save at any cost" levels of important, but you are correct that it's not sensible to draw comparisons.

Puja

Three ships minimum since 2015. That’s a sizeable commitment. And that doesn’t count various coastguards plus of course other merchant traffic which will stop and assist a vessel in distress and patrolling aircraft. Plus the migrant routes don’t cover all of the med.

And of a vessel is in distress then they will just a gut getting there. It wouldn’t need the mobilisation of a dozen ships since the smuggler craft are normally small and the people onboard could be picked up by one or two decent sized ships. The reason so many ships got invoked in this is that they were support craft for specialist diving craft to search the seabed. If the submarine had been discovered in the first day, most wouldn’t have been dispatched.

I note that you have no sympathy because to ey are rich people which speaks more of your attitude to human life and not in a good way. You’re a rich person compared to many on this planet- if you had suffered a life threatening injury on a rugby pitch, voluntarily taking part in a risky sport, should we have not bothered sending the ambulance? Or should you have been means tested first?

What about those kids stuck in a flooded cave a few years ago. Was it ok to mobilise a multinational rescue operation or should have just left them there to rot because, well they were a bit daft going down there? I seem to remember them being fairly poor so presumably that’s ok with you?

Personally I’m all for leaving ship wrecks alone you are correct that graves should be respected. But I’m not ok with judging people by the size of their bank balance before deciding to try and rescue them.

[Puja]

And, let's be clear, these were rich people who went down to play tourist and gawp at a mass gravesite, specifically a gravesite where most of the dead were poor people who were abandoned because their lives were worth less than the rich people who were given priority. These were people engaged in an act of both stupidity and turpitude and I have very little sympathy for them.

I note that you have no sympathy because to ey are rich people which speaks more of your attitude to human life and not in a good way. You’re a rich person compared to many on this planet- if you had suffered a life threatening injury on a rugby pitch, voluntarily taking part in a risky sport, should we have not bothered sending the ambulance? Or should you have been means tested first?

What about those kids stuck in a flooded cave a few years ago. Was it ok to mobilise a multinational rescue operation or should have just left them there to rot because, well they were a bit daft going down there? I seem to remember them being fairly poor so presumably that’s ok with you?

Personally I’m all for leaving ship wrecks alone you are correct that graves should be respected. But I’m not ok with judging people by the size of their bank balance before deciding to try and rescue them.

I want to note a few things here. Firstly, you have misread my post - I said I had no sympathy because they were engaged in a wicked act, spending frivolous amounts of money to play looky-loo at a mass grave, not that I had no sympathy because of their bank balances. I also never said that I would bar them from being saved because they were rich, merely that I was appalled that the rescue of 4 billionaires was given such priority when people dying by the hundreds is oftimes just a political inconvenience.

That being said, it is not possible to be both a good person and a billionaire. That amount of wealth cannot be earned - it can only be got by exploiting people. If you had a job where you earned £10,000 per day (so £3,650,000 per year) and didn't get taxed and didn't spend any of it and just saved your entire pay packet, it would take you 274 years to earn £1bn. The only people who have got to be a billionaire have got there by hurting other people - union busting, crushing wages, strongarming governments to bring down labour laws, using unsafe working practises, allying with dictators, corruption, killing the planet. People have died to make each billionaire and not a small number of them.

In addition, to actually want the status of billionaire is a special kind of evil. It's a perverse desire to have more money than anyone could possibly need and to keep accumulating. You cannot spend £1bn in a lifetime - if you were to get it at 20 and live to be 100, you would have to spend over £90,000 each day to keep ahead of the interest and spend enough that you might run out on your deathbed (and that's assuming a return of 2.5% which is pessimistic to say the least). To have acquired that amount of money, you would have to have passed a level of obscene richness - let's say £250,000,000 (where you'd only have a paltry £25k to spend each day before you ran out of money in 80 years' time) - and to keep going, rather than literally giving away everything extra that you earn. Or, hells, here's a wacky notion - pay the workers that have provided you that wealth a fair share? Stop engaging in the shitty business practices that are giving you this money? Stop actively avoiding tax? Loads of ways to stop yourself from becoming a billionaire.

Also worth noting that your comparison of billionaires to me or anyone else is specious. People can't conceptualise the concept of a billion - it's too big for most minds and just gets lumped into the category of "a lot" and conflated with people who have £10m+, but it is such a large amount of money that it dwarfs pretty much any comparison whatsoever.

capture.png

I am on the first step, if you're curious, and that's only because I had a mother willing to lend me the money to get on the property ladder 10 years ago (and because the UK housing market is B R O K E N). That definitely does make me rich compared to some in the world, by a distance. However, when we plot billionaires on the same chart, we're all statistical noise together at the bottom.

Being a billionaire is an unequivocally evil act. They were unequivocally wicked people, who have looked on at people starving and decided they would like to continue to acquire more money. I'm not going to celebrate anyone's death, but I'm also not going to mourn them.

Puja

[Donny osmond]

Copied from twitter (not my post):

Now we know when and how the Titan submersible and the five men in it met their fate, intense public interest in the story appears more clearly for what it is: emotional investment in hope against hope, in the last minute appearance of a deus ex machina to bring a miracle rescue. A better comparison than a shipwreck of known fate the previous week would be the disappearance of MH370 in March 2014: a scheduled commercial flight with passengers of many nationalities and backgrounds, and a mystery which prompted saturation coverage and efforts to unravel it.

[Sandydragon]

And, let's be clear, these were rich people who went down to play tourist and gawp at a mass gravesite, specifically a gravesite where most of the dead were poor people who were abandoned because their lives were worth less than the rich people who were given priority. These were people engaged in an act of both stupidity and turpitude and I have very little sympathy for them.

I note that you have no sympathy because to ey are rich people which speaks more of your attitude to human life and not in a good way. You’re a rich person compared to many on this planet- if you had suffered a life threatening injury on a rugby pitch, voluntarily taking part in a risky sport, should we have not bothered sending the ambulance? Or should you have been means tested first?

What about those kids stuck in a flooded cave a few years ago. Was it ok to mobilise a multinational rescue operation or should have just left them there to rot because, well they were a bit daft going down there? I seem to remember them being fairly poor so presumably that’s ok with you?

Personally I’m all for leaving ship wrecks alone you are correct that graves should be respected. But I’m not ok with judging people by the size of their bank balance before deciding to try and rescue them.

I want to note a few things here. Firstly, you have misread my post - I said I had no sympathy because they were engaged in a wicked act, spending frivolous amounts of money to play looky-loo at a mass grave, not that I had no sympathy because of their bank balances. I also never said that I would bar them from being saved because they were rich, merely that I was appalled that the rescue of 4 billionaires was given such priority when people dying by the hundreds is oftimes just a political inconvenience.

That being said, it is not possible to be both a good person and a billionaire. That amount of wealth cannot be earned - it can only be got by exploiting people. If you had a job where you earned £10,000 per day (so £3,650,000 per year) and didn't get taxed and didn't spend any of it and just saved your entire pay packet, it would take you 274 years to earn £1bn. The only people who have got to be a billionaire have got there by hurting other people - union busting, crushing wages, strongarming governments to bring down labour laws, using unsafe working practises, allying with dictators, corruption, killing the planet. People have died to make each billionaire and not a small number of them.

In addition, to actually want the status of billionaire is a special kind of evil. It's a perverse desire to have more money than anyone could possibly need and to keep accumulating. You cannot spend £1bn in a lifetime - if you were to get it at 20 and live to be 100, you would have to spend over £90,000 each day to keep ahead of the interest and spend enough that you might run out on your deathbed (and that's assuming a return of 2.5% which is pessimistic to say the least). To have acquired that amount of money, you would have to have passed a level of obscene richness - let's say £250,000,000 (where you'd only have a paltry £25k to spend each day before you ran out of money in 80 years' time) - and to keep going, rather than literally giving away everything extra that you earn. Or, hells, here's a wacky notion - pay the workers that have provided you that wealth a fair share? Stop engaging in the shitty business practices that are giving you this money? Stop actively avoiding tax? Loads of ways to stop yourself from becoming a billionaire.

Also worth noting that your comparison of billionaires to me or anyone else is specious. People can't conceptualise the concept of a billion - it's too big for most minds and just gets lumped into the category of "a lot" and conflated with people who have £10m+, but it is such a large amount of money that it dwarfs pretty much any comparison whatsoever.


capture.png


I am on the first step, if you're curious, and that's only because I had a mother willing to lend me the money to get on the property ladder 10 years ago (and because the UK housing market is B R O K E N). That definitely does make me rich compared to some in the world, by a distance. However, when we plot billionaires on the same chart, we're all statistical noise together at the bottom.

Being a billionaire is an unequivocally evil act. They were unequivocally wicked people, who have looked on at people starving and decided they would like to continue to acquire more money. I'm not going to celebrate anyone's death, but I'm also not going to mourn them.

Puja

All billionaires are evil. Right oh. So where do people stop being good and become evil on your money scale?

And if comparing you to a billionaire isn’t fair well I’m not the one suggesting that no one gives a shit about rescuing migrants in the Med (proven bollocks) or not wanting certain people rescued because they happen to be rich. Envy isn’t a great emotion.

[Sandydragon]

Copied from twitter (not my post):

Now we know when and how the Titan submersible and the five men in it met their fate, intense public interest in the story appears more clearly for what it is: emotional investment in hope against hope, in the last minute appearance of a deus ex machina to bring a miracle rescue. A better comparison than a shipwreck of known fate the previous week would be the disappearance of MH370 in March 2014: a scheduled commercial flight with passengers of many nationalities and backgrounds, and a mystery which prompted saturation coverage and efforts to unravel it.

I agree. We see the same interest in MH370 or indeed the school boys in the cave, trapped miners or the Kursk. It’s that same race against time and hope for a positive outcome.