RWC Training Squad

[Oakboy]

The thread's debate on so many players merely reinforces my point on how few are definite 1st XV starters.

I'd pick:

Marler, George, Sinckler, Hill, Itoje, Curry, Willis, Willis, JVP, Farrell, Daly, Lawrence, Slade, Watson, Steward


I have reservations over George, Sinckler and JVP. The first two are just the best available unfortunately. I'd pick Quirke at 9 if he was in the squad. I'll not bother justifying Farrell at 10 beyond saying anything is better than Farrell at 12.

[Scrumhead]

Genge is pretty much an automatic starter. I don’t know why anyone would think otherwise TBH? I’d say the same for Chessum if he’s fit.

I expect to see:

1. Genge 2. George 3. Sinckler 4. Itoje 5. Chessum 6. Lawes 7. Curry 8. Vunipola 9. JvP 10. Ford 11. May 12. Farrell 13. Lawrence 14. Watson 15. Steward

I’d pick:

1. Genge 2. George 3. Stuart 4. Itoje 5. Chessum 6. Curry 7. J. Willis 8. Dombrandt* 9. Care 10. Smith 11. May 12. Lawrence 13. Slade 14. Watson 15. Steward

*If Tom Willis gets a chance in the warm-ups and impresses, I’d be happy to swap him in at 8.

I think Ribbans is the most likely alternative if Chessum doesn’t make it.

[fivepointer]

I dont expect any radical or unexpected selections. Theo Dan isnt going to be starter, nor are Pearson, Porter, VRR and Murley.
I think SB will go with experience and try to wring out one last hurrah from a few stalwarts and hope that some of our better players can raise their game.

[p/d]

Bloody marvellous to see Dan and VRR kept.

Gutted Atkinson never got a look and have to grudgingly accept risk averse selection at 9 is not without merit.

The Domrandt/Care/ Smith has legs to get the best out of all 3.

I assume May is there for his Ed Sheeran covers and Coka to inspire those of smaller stature that big isn’t always best.

[Oakboy]

Bloody marvellous to see Dan and VRR kept.

Gutted Atkinson never got a look and have to grudgingly accept risk averse selection at 9 is not without merit.

The Domrandt/Care/ Smith has legs to get the best out of all 3.

I assume May is there for his Ed Sheeran covers and Coka to inspire those of smaller stature that big isn’t always best.

Might all the players you have named be amongst the 13 to be dumped?

[Banquo]

btw....Cokanasiga has slipped in under radar somewhat?

still mystified re Freeman.

I personally don't get the Freeman love on the board. I mean, he's good. Wouldn't be outraged if he was in there. But what's the USP that's making you all think it's a travesty that he's not involved? He doesn't seem lightning quick or particularly evasive or creative or anything other than just being a decent enough winger. Did pretty well in a couple of games against Australia and appears to have a reputation from that.

I don't mind giving Cokanasiga a chance. If he can be got up to form and in synch with the attacking structures, he's got the capacity to provide something that no-one else in our team can. It is a big if, but he does seem very much like a confidence player and, faith invested in him could be significantly repaid. If he can't get back to his best, then there's plenty of other wingers in the training squad, so it seems like a gamble with no downside.

Puja

He's a very good all round player with no discernible gap in his skill set, which is rare for an england back. He is quick, he is elusive, he has good hands and feet and makes good decisions- hits good lines and finishes. He did pretty well in Australia, when many backs did not...Porter being the obvious example, albeit different position. He's simply a better rugby player than some of those in the squad, and imo is ahead of May, Murley, Coka, and even Arundell. (oh and Malins ffs)

I'd have thought having a good rounded player would have seemed like a USP to you tbh.

[Banquo]

I personally don't get the Freeman love on the board. I mean, he's good. Wouldn't be outraged if he was in there. But what's the USP that's making you all think it's a travesty that he's not involved? He doesn't seem lightning quick or particularly evasive or creative or anything other than just being a decent enough winger. Did pretty well in a couple of games against Australia and appears to have a reputation from that.

Puja

I’d argue he did very well against Oz which is more international form than any other winger selected.
Arundell: freak talent but goes missing outside highlight reel stuff due to being so inexperienced.
Coka: perma injured with a small body of form since his debut. Defensively suspect, ditto under the high ball.
Malins: flaky player who goes from the sublime to the ridiculous within a 5m run. Probably not a winger, even in his own mind.
May: seemingly picked on what he achieved a couple of years ago.
Murley: been brilliant in the Prem but then so has OHC…
Watson: world class… if he can stay fit.

It’s not as if we’re asking Staid Blunderbuss to drop Lomu, Robinson and Penaud. There’s also the fact that he’s thrown all his chips in with Steward at 15 and if he goes down injured then I’d argue the Freeman would be the best option to replace him like-for-like.

Agree with that last point in particular. Freeman is a good fullback, limited only by the fact he plays for Saints where Furbank is first choice (mainly because it gives Saints a second playmaker). Freeman being one of the few who is genuinely as good as wing as he is fullback. He's big, he's quick, he can kick, offload and he knows how to finish. Given our likely kicking tactics his size and ability under the high ball would have been a benefit as well.

12 tries in 20 games last season and 14 in 21 the season before that (includes all games Saints and England). At 22 he's been really good for a couple of seasons now.

quite, and he took very well to intl rugby immediately.

[Banquo]

I'm given to understand that Stonking Blusterer's bonus depends on getting to the semis. That would explain the selection to some extent.

[Puja]

btw....Cokanasiga has slipped in under radar somewhat?

still mystified re Freeman.

I personally don't get the Freeman love on the board. I mean, he's good. Wouldn't be outraged if he was in there. But what's the USP that's making you all think it's a travesty that he's not involved? He doesn't seem lightning quick or particularly evasive or creative or anything other than just being a decent enough winger. Did pretty well in a couple of games against Australia and appears to have a reputation from that.

I don't mind giving Cokanasiga a chance. If he can be got up to form and in synch with the attacking structures, he's got the capacity to provide something that no-one else in our team can. It is a big if, but he does seem very much like a confidence player and, faith invested in him could be significantly repaid. If he can't get back to his best, then there's plenty of other wingers in the training squad, so it seems like a gamble with no downside.

Puja

He's a very good all round player with no discernible gap in his skill set, which is rare for an england back. He is quick, he is elusive, he has good hands and feet and makes good decisions- hits good lines and finishes. He did pretty well in Australia, when many backs did not...Porter being the obvious example, albeit different position. He's simply a better rugby player than some of those in the squad, and imo is ahead of May, Murley, Coka, and even Arundell. (oh and Malins ffs)

I'd have thought having a good rounded player would have seemed like a USP to you tbh.

I mean, I'm not against him on principle. I just don't get the excitement and animation at him being omitted. He's quick, but not rapid; he's elusive enough, but he won't open gaps on his own; he has good hands and makes good decisions, but he's not a playmaker that'll open spaces for others; finishes but isn't someone who scores things no-one else can.

May has experience and knowledge and, while he's spent most of the last 2 years injured or playing through an injury, if Brandywine asseses he's back to where he was, he's our best winger. Murley is stronger, better at breaking tackles, a more tenacious finisher and backed that up with being top try scorer. Coka and Arundell are worth having a look at because they can open holes that no-one else can - Coka especially because, if fit and firing, he could be used like Leicester did Nadolo. I just don't see the value in a winger that's just pretty good at most things, especially when we're not currently a side that's opening clean breaks for our wingers - we need back three who will create their own space.

Malins isn't one that I can especially defend and, had Freeman been in there instead, wouldn't've complained. I guess Malins has the advantage of the reliability of having 15 caps versus a barely proven 2, as well as the promise of creativity and more steppiness. But it's not necessarily a selection I'd make or can defend - that's one that I'm just trusting Borthwick on.

Puja

[Banquo]

I personally don't get the Freeman love on the board. I mean, he's good. Wouldn't be outraged if he was in there. But what's the USP that's making you all think it's a travesty that he's not involved? He doesn't seem lightning quick or particularly evasive or creative or anything other than just being a decent enough winger. Did pretty well in a couple of games against Australia and appears to have a reputation from that.

I don't mind giving Cokanasiga a chance. If he can be got up to form and in synch with the attacking structures, he's got the capacity to provide something that no-one else in our team can. It is a big if, but he does seem very much like a confidence player and, faith invested in him could be significantly repaid. If he can't get back to his best, then there's plenty of other wingers in the training squad, so it seems like a gamble with no downside.

Puja

He's a very good all round player with no discernible gap in his skill set, which is rare for an england back. He is quick, he is elusive, he has good hands and feet and makes good decisions- hits good lines and finishes. He did pretty well in Australia, when many backs did not...Porter being the obvious example, albeit different position. He's simply a better rugby player than some of those in the squad, and imo is ahead of May, Murley, Coka, and even Arundell. (oh and Malins ffs)

I'd have thought having a good rounded player would have seemed like a USP to you tbh.

I just don't get the excitement and animation at him being omitted. He's quick, but not rapid; he's elusive enough, but he won't open gaps on his own; he has good hands and makes good decisions, but he's not a playmaker that'll open spaces for others; finishes but isn't someone who scores things no-one else can.

May has experience and knowledge and, while he's spent most of the last 2 years injured or playing through an injury, if Brandywine asseses he's back to where he was, he's our best winger. Murley is stronger, better at breaking tackles, a more tenacious finisher and backed that up with being top try scorer. Coka and Arundell are worth having a look at because they can open holes that no-one else can - Coka especially because, if fit and firing, he could be used like Leicester did Nadolo. I just don't see the value in a winger that's just pretty good at most things, especially when we're not currently a side that's opening clean breaks for our wingers - we need back three who will create their own space.

Malins isn't one that I can especially defend and, had Freeman been in there instead, wouldn't've complained. I guess Malins has the advantage of the reliability of having 15 caps versus a barely proven 2, as well as the promise of creativity and more steppiness. But it's not necessarily a selection I'd make or can defend - that's one that I'm just trusting Borthwick on.

Puja

I just mentioned I was disappointed at his omission. We aren't going to agree- I see a physically capable at intl player who provides the decision making and skill set glaringly lacking in many of our backs- May is a busted flush, Murley totally untested at top level (Freeman was good), Coka is very hit miss and out, Arundell x factor but no rugby, and Malins has been pretty crap at intl level.

So basically you are saying, shut it Banquo and trust in Steve. Who has little clue re the backs tbh.

[Puja]

He's a very good all round player with no discernible gap in his skill set, which is rare for an england back. He is quick, he is elusive, he has good hands and feet and makes good decisions- hits good lines and finishes. He did pretty well in Australia, when many backs did not...Porter being the obvious example, albeit different position. He's simply a better rugby player than some of those in the squad, and imo is ahead of May, Murley, Coka, and even Arundell. (oh and Malins ffs)

I'd have thought having a good rounded player would have seemed like a USP to you tbh.

I just don't get the excitement and animation at him being omitted. He's quick, but not rapid; he's elusive enough, but he won't open gaps on his own; he has good hands and makes good decisions, but he's not a playmaker that'll open spaces for others; finishes but isn't someone who scores things no-one else can.

May has experience and knowledge and, while he's spent most of the last 2 years injured or playing through an injury, if Brandywine asseses he's back to where he was, he's our best winger. Murley is stronger, better at breaking tackles, a more tenacious finisher and backed that up with being top try scorer. Coka and Arundell are worth having a look at because they can open holes that no-one else can - Coka especially because, if fit and firing, he could be used like Leicester did Nadolo. I just don't see the value in a winger that's just pretty good at most things, especially when we're not currently a side that's opening clean breaks for our wingers - we need back three who will create their own space.

Malins isn't one that I can especially defend and, had Freeman been in there instead, wouldn't've complained. I guess Malins has the advantage of the reliability of having 15 caps versus a barely proven 2, as well as the promise of creativity and more steppiness. But it's not necessarily a selection I'd make or can defend - that's one that I'm just trusting Borthwick on.

Puja

I just mentioned I was disappointed at his omission. We aren't going to agree- I see a physically capable at intl player who provides the decision making and skill set glaringly lacking in many of our backs- May is a busted flush, Murley totally untested at top level (Freeman was good), Coka is very hit miss and out, Arundell x factor but no rugby, and Malins has been pretty crap at intl level.

So basically you are saying, shut it Banquo and trust in Steve. Who has little clue re the backs tbh.

Well, you're allowed to not trust in Steve - I'll permit it.

I currently do and I can see his logic on his picks, even if some of them wouldn't've been my choice. But I do appreciate the response, cause I did genuinely want to know what other people were interested in with Freeman.

Puja

[Banquo]

I just don't get the excitement and animation at him being omitted. He's quick, but not rapid; he's elusive enough, but he won't open gaps on his own; he has good hands and makes good decisions, but he's not a playmaker that'll open spaces for others; finishes but isn't someone who scores things no-one else can.

May has experience and knowledge and, while he's spent most of the last 2 years injured or playing through an injury, if Brandywine asseses he's back to where he was, he's our best winger. Murley is stronger, better at breaking tackles, a more tenacious finisher and backed that up with being top try scorer. Coka and Arundell are worth having a look at because they can open holes that no-one else can - Coka especially because, if fit and firing, he could be used like Leicester did Nadolo. I just don't see the value in a winger that's just pretty good at most things, especially when we're not currently a side that's opening clean breaks for our wingers - we need back three who will create their own space.

Malins isn't one that I can especially defend and, had Freeman been in there instead, wouldn't've complained. I guess Malins has the advantage of the reliability of having 15 caps versus a barely proven 2, as well as the promise of creativity and more steppiness. But it's not necessarily a selection I'd make or can defend - that's one that I'm just trusting Borthwick on.

Puja

I just mentioned I was disappointed at his omission. We aren't going to agree- I see a physically capable at intl player who provides the decision making and skill set glaringly lacking in many of our backs- May is a busted flush, Murley totally untested at top level (Freeman was good), Coka is very hit miss and out, Arundell x factor but no rugby, and Malins has been pretty crap at intl level.

So basically you are saying, shut it Banquo and trust in Steve. Who has little clue re the backs tbh.

Well, you're allowed to not trust in Steve - I'll permit it.

I currently do and I can see his logic on his picks, even if some of them wouldn't've been my choice. But I do appreciate the response, cause I did genuinely want to know what other people were interested in with Freeman.

Puja

Where do you think the logic is rooted?

[Mikey Brown]

Just read an article where Murley mentions Borthwick wanting his wings to dominate in the air and be super physical on the kick chase. How that leads to Malins over Freeman I’m not sure.

I guess Freeman just isn’t showing enough of what was working for him in Australia. Honestly I don’t remember if those performances were truly outstanding or just stood out compared to the aimless play elsewhere.

[Banquo]

Just read an article where Murley mentions Borthwick wanting his wings to dominate in the air and be super physical on the kick chase. How that leads to Malins over Freeman I’m not sure.

I guess Freeman just isn’t showing enough of what was working for him in Australia. Honestly I don’t remember if those performances were truly outstanding or just stood out compared to the aimless play elsewhere.

He was as good as anyone out there, but as you say….

It’s just odd how he’s fallen down the order given he had a good season. #borthershatessaints

[Scrumhead]

I just don't get the excitement and animation at him being omitted. He's quick, but not rapid; he's elusive enough, but he won't open gaps on his own; he has good hands and makes good decisions, but he's not a playmaker that'll open spaces for others; finishes but isn't someone who scores things no-one else can.

May has experience and knowledge and, while he's spent most of the last 2 years injured or playing through an injury, if Brandywine asseses he's back to where he was, he's our best winger. Murley is stronger, better at breaking tackles, a more tenacious finisher and backed that up with being top try scorer. Coka and Arundell are worth having a look at because they can open holes that no-one else can - Coka especially because, if fit and firing, he could be used like Leicester did Nadolo. I just don't see the value in a winger that's just pretty good at most things, especially when we're not currently a side that's opening clean breaks for our wingers - we need back three who will create their own space.

Malins isn't one that I can especially defend and, had Freeman been in there instead, wouldn't've complained. I guess Malins has the advantage of the reliability of having 15 caps versus a barely proven 2, as well as the promise of creativity and more steppiness. But it's not necessarily a selection I'd make or can defend - that's one that I'm just trusting Borthwick on.

Puja

I just mentioned I was disappointed at his omission. We aren't going to agree- I see a physically capable at intl player who provides the decision making and skill set glaringly lacking in many of our backs- May is a busted flush, Murley totally untested at top level (Freeman was good), Coka is very hit miss and out, Arundell x factor but no rugby, and Malins has been pretty crap at intl level.

So basically you are saying, shut it Banquo and trust in Steve. Who has little clue re the backs tbh.

Well, you're allowed to not trust in Steve - I'll permit it.

I currently do and I can see his logic on his picks, even if some of them wouldn't've been my choice. But I do appreciate the response, cause I did genuinely want to know what other people were interested in with Freeman.

Puja

I trust Borthwick to be meticulous in his research and preparation and I trust him to develop and deliver a pragmatic gameplan. I hope that’s enough.

I’m not sure I totally trust his selections. It feels to me like the plan is simply to pick the majority of he old guard and kick the leather off the ball. It might work to a point but I’m not relishing the prospect.

[Puja]

Where do you think the logic is rooted?

I don't think I can really elaborate further on my previous screed - May is very far from "a busted flush", I don't know on Malins but he does very well for Saracens (and I don't really get the hate that his international career so far has got - he's been all right for me), and the rest of them have some point of difference that allows them to open holes and is worthwhile exploring to see whether they can be weaponised in the long training camp.

Puja

[Scrumhead]

I agreed with your overview, but I read the same article with Murley that @Mikey Brown mentioned and it did make me think ‘why not pick Freeman then?’.

I also agree that Malins and Dombrandt have copped a lot more flak than other players who have been less than stellar. I’d mostly put that down to disappointment that they haven’t replicated their club form at test level, but in their defence, I think they’re being asked to play quite different roles.

I could be wrong, but my big hopes are that this type of extended build up plays to Borthwick’s strengths in terms of attention to detail and planning, whilst also giving Sinfield and co. the opportunity to rebuild the togetherness/mentality of the squad (I don’t see that as a particular strength of SB).

[Banquo]

Where do you think the logic is rooted?

I don't think I can really elaborate further on my previous screed - May is very far from "a busted flush", I don't know on Malins but he does very well for Saracens (and I don't really get the hate that his international career so far has got - he's been all right for me), and the rest of them have some point of difference that allows them to open holes and is worthwhile exploring to see whether they can be weaponised in the long training camp.

Puja

I meant Borthwicks overall plan and consequent selection.

And any chance of ditching words like 'hate' when discussing a player and abilities.

[switchskier]

More evidence that Stewart is a bit slow. Completely unofficial and not so much the players that he was slower than but just how much slower he was.

https://www.ruck.co.uk/england-backs-sp ... ng-second/

[Mikey Brown]

I’m not sure I understand the metric.

Are Arundell and Daly not in there for a particular reason?

[Gloskarlos]

You'd imagine that is 50m times? an odd subset of players to monitor though

[Puja]

More evidence that Stewart is a bit slow. Completely unofficial and not so much the players that he was slower than but just how much slower he was.

https://www.ruck.co.uk/england-backs-sp ... ng-second/

I'm not sure that I particularly trust Ruck's exhaustive scientific method, given that this appears to be taken from one of those "behind the scenes" highlights videos which isn't clear whether each player is on their first sprint of the session or twentieth and isn't exactly official. It's just clickbait and wouldn't surprise me if Steward was "found" to be bottom just because it'll get them shares.

Puja

[Which Tyler]

I still want a sprint meet next time the Lions want to do a promo video (surely, everyone remembers the British Bulldog meet in 2005).
I know it'll never happen because "but what if someone pulls a hammy" - and I know the British Bulldog had a rather blatantly choreographed finale, but still.

[Banquo]

I’m not sure I understand the metric.

Are Arundell and Daly not in there for a particular reason?

and watson.

[Banquo]

More evidence that Stewart is a bit slow. Completely unofficial and not so much the players that he was slower than but just how much slower he was.

https://www.ruck.co.uk/england-backs-sp ... ng-second/

I'm not sure that I particularly trust Ruck's exhaustive scientific method, given that this appears to be taken from one of those "behind the scenes" highlights videos which isn't clear whether each player is on their first sprint of the session or twentieth and isn't exactly official. It's just clickbait and wouldn't surprise me if Steward was "found" to be bottom just because it'll get them shares.

Puja

Yep. Then again, I'd expect Steward to be bottom of that list, but expect JVP to be a bit higher.