RWC Training Squad

[Puja]

All of which is fair.
I'd say that his physical impact is reasonable, and probably higher than most of the backs there, but not by as much as it "should be" based on being a big guy.
His stand out as a winger, is his hands, doing enough in the tackle to get an offload away, keeping the ball alive for someone else.
His physicality is most useful for attracting defenders onto himself, buying a little more time on the ball for his OC, which someone like JJ (of old) could make hay with, but a Slade probably can't - it's also a trick that's unlikely to work against better quality, international defences.

TBH, if that's not enough of a point of difference, then drop him.
Alternatively, if the coaching crew want him to a big impact player, then retrain him to be a big impact player; don't select him for one thing, and then ask him to do a different job that he's not particularly good at.

As for try scoring - he's got a knack, and however much criticism he gets for some of them walk-ins, all wingers get walk-ins occasionally, and there comes a point where you pick the "lucky" general over the "good" general

I think it very much depends how you define "crash ball" and goes back very much to our use of Manu at a lot of times over the last 12 years. If you want to wind him up and send him into a prepared wall of tacklers, then it is a terrible use of him

Puja

But its really not a terrible use if he or anyone ties in 3 tacklers and you get quick ball. The issue is when that's the exclusive use.

If that was the case, I'd be all for it. However, it rarely results in quick ball anymore - teams do what South Africa did to us in the RWC final and allow us half a metre in return for holding the carrier up for a second and gumming up the presentation, meaning it might tie in 3 tacklers but the ball takes 6+ seconds to become usable. I do not believe that, against a top line 2023 defence, there is any amount of bosh that will result in quick ball from trying to make ground through a prepared wall of tacklers.

Puja

[Oakboy]

All of which is fair.
I'd say that his physical impact is reasonable, and probably higher than most of the backs there, but not by as much as it "should be" based on being a big guy.
His stand out as a winger, is his hands, doing enough in the tackle to get an offload away, keeping the ball alive for someone else.
His physicality is most useful for attracting defenders onto himself, buying a little more time on the ball for his OC, which someone like JJ (of old) could make hay with, but a Slade probably can't - it's also a trick that's unlikely to work against better quality, international defences.

TBH, if that's not enough of a point of difference, then drop him.
Alternatively, if the coaching crew want him to a big impact player, then retrain him to be a big impact player; don't select him for one thing, and then ask him to do a different job that he's not particularly good at.

As for try scoring - he's got a knack, and however much criticism he gets for some of them walk-ins, all wingers get walk-ins occasionally, and there comes a point where you pick the "lucky" general over the "good" general

I think it very much depends how you define "crash ball" and goes back very much to our use of Manu at a lot of times over the last 12 years. If you want to wind him up and send him into a prepared wall of tacklers, then it is a terrible use of him

Puja

But its really not a terrible use if he or anyone ties in 3 tacklers and you get quick ball. The issue is when that's the exclusive use.

Can the current Tuilagi deliver quick ball at international level?

[Banquo]

I think it very much depends how you define "crash ball" and goes back very much to our use of Manu at a lot of times over the last 12 years. If you want to wind him up and send him into a prepared wall of tacklers, then it is a terrible use of him

Puja

But its really not a terrible use if he or anyone ties in 3 tacklers and you get quick ball. The issue is when that's the exclusive use.

If that was the case, I'd be all for it. However, it rarely results in quick ball anymore - teams do what South Africa did to us in the RWC final and allow us half a metre in return for holding the carrier up for a second and gumming up the presentation, meaning it might tie in 3 tacklers but the ball takes 6+ seconds to become usable. I do not believe that, against a top line 2023 defence, there is any amount of bosh that will result in quick ball from trying to make ground through a prepared wall of tacklers.

Puja

I don't agree- you see it fairly often, for example from lineouts. Tho I do now note your use of 'prepared wall of tacklers'- even then, can always target the little brick.

[Banquo]

I think it very much depends how you define "crash ball" and goes back very much to our use of Manu at a lot of times over the last 12 years. If you want to wind him up and send him into a prepared wall of tacklers, then it is a terrible use of him

Puja

But its really not a terrible use if he or anyone ties in 3 tacklers and you get quick ball. The issue is when that's the exclusive use.

Can the current Tuilagi deliver quick ball at international level?

eh? no problem in him getting over the tackle line....the rest is up to the support.

[Stom]

But its really not a terrible use if he or anyone ties in 3 tacklers and you get quick ball. The issue is when that's the exclusive use.

If that was the case, I'd be all for it. However, it rarely results in quick ball anymore - teams do what South Africa did to us in the RWC final and allow us half a metre in return for holding the carrier up for a second and gumming up the presentation, meaning it might tie in 3 tacklers but the ball takes 6+ seconds to become usable. I do not believe that, against a top line 2023 defence, there is any amount of bosh that will result in quick ball from trying to make ground through a prepared wall of tacklers.

Puja

I don't agree- you see it fairly often, for example from lineouts. Tho I do now note your use of 'prepared wall of tacklers'- even then, can always target the little brick.

Wait, you mean...playing what's in front of you?!?

How? I mean, how is that done? You're meant to stick rigidly to the playbook, no? This is American Football, not some crappy European sport where you actually have to think!

[Oakboy]

But its really not a terrible use if he or anyone ties in 3 tacklers and you get quick ball. The issue is when that's the exclusive use.

Can the current Tuilagi deliver quick ball at international level?

eh? no problem in him getting over the tackle line....the rest is up to the support.

Really? I just don't think he's penetrative now and I've always had reservations about his off-loading and handling skills. There is also the question of his positioning and timing in terms of running the right line initially. I expected you to be critical of that.

[Mikey Brown]

I love how we go round and round with these debates about personnel and then it always ends up with the caveat ‘providing we can win the forward/gainline battle and find some reliable way to score points’.

All these years and our success likely revolves on which side of the bed Manu happened to get up that morning.

[Oakboy]

I love how we go round and round with these debates about personnel and then it always ends up with the caveat ‘providing we can win the forward/gainline battle and find some reliable way to score points’.

All these years and our success likely revolves on which side of the bed Manu happened to get up that morning.

I think successive head coaches hoping to build their strategy around his presence has led to his in/out condition creating the single biggest block to development over a long period. Various centres (including Farrell) have just been short-term options 'till Tuilagi is fit'. His inclusion now (way past his best) makes even less sense to me.

[jngf]

All these years and our success likely revolves on which side of the bed Manu happened to get up that morning.

Don’t forget the Iceman

[Banquo]

Can the current Tuilagi deliver quick ball at international level?

eh? no problem in him getting over the tackle line....the rest is up to the support.

Really? I just don't think he's penetrative now and I've always had reservations about his off-loading and handling skills. There is also the question of his positioning and timing in terms of running the right line initially. I expected you to be critical of that.

Not talking about his offloading skills, and someone like Ford can launch an even diminished Tuilagi through the tackle line- he’s always been able to run those lines.

[Banquo]

I love how we go round and round with these debates about personnel and then it always ends up with the caveat ‘providing we can win the forward/gainline battle and find some reliable way to score points’.

All these years and our success likely revolves on which side of the bed Manu happened to get up that morning.

Not what I’m saying tho. I’m saying you can launch Manu or any unit over the tackle line from say a lineout, then most forward units at that level can make that quick ball. It’s what you then do, and don’t expect it to work ad nauseum. Funnily enough, this debate started when I was almost agreeing with Puja that you shouldn't repeatedly use this kind of tactic- but that it can be useful from time to time if executed well.

[FKAS]

I love how we go round and round with these debates about personnel and then it always ends up with the caveat ‘providing we can win the forward/gainline battle and find some reliable way to score points’.

All these years and our success likely revolves on which side of the bed Manu happened to get up that morning.

Not what I’m saying tho. I’m saying you can launch Manu or any unit over the tackle line from say a lineout, then most forward units at that level can make that quick ball. It’s what you then do, and don’t expect it to work ad nauseum. Funnily enough, this debate started when I was almost agreeing with Puja that you shouldn't repeatedly use this kind of tactic- but that it can be useful from time to time if executed well.

To fair you need it to work well once and then you can use it as a dummy line for the rest of the game.

[Mikey Brown]

I love how we go round and round with these debates about personnel and then it always ends up with the caveat ‘providing we can win the forward/gainline battle and find some reliable way to score points’.

All these years and our success likely revolves on which side of the bed Manu happened to get up that morning.

Not what I’m saying tho. I’m saying you can launch Manu or any unit over the tackle line from say a lineout, then most forward units at that level can make that quick ball. It’s what you then do, and don’t expect it to work ad nauseum. Funnily enough, this debate started when I was almost agreeing with Puja that you shouldn't repeatedly use this kind of tactic- but that it can be useful from time to time if executed well.

It wasn't particularly directed at you. It just feels like every debate about tactics or selection eventually returns to someone saying "as long as we can get quick ball" or "as long as we can win the breakdown battle" or some other crucial element of virtually every team's strategy.

The Manu comment was more just about how much temperament of the players comes in to the equation. You can say most forward units would hope to make a bust off a line-out in to quick ball, and equally you'd hope our forwards would be able to slow the opposition ball a bit when doing the same thing, but so would every other team in the world.

[Banquo]

I love how we go round and round with these debates about personnel and then it always ends up with the caveat ‘providing we can win the forward/gainline battle and find some reliable way to score points’.

All these years and our success likely revolves on which side of the bed Manu happened to get up that morning.

Not what I’m saying tho. I’m saying you can launch Manu or any unit over the tackle line from say a lineout, then most forward units at that level can make that quick ball. It’s what you then do, and don’t expect it to work ad nauseum. Funnily enough, this debate started when I was almost agreeing with Puja that you shouldn't repeatedly use this kind of tactic- but that it can be useful from time to time if executed well.

It wasn't particularly directed at you. It just feels like every debate about tactics or selection eventually returns to someone saying "as long as we can get quick ball" or "as long as we can win the breakdown battle" or some other crucial element of virtually every team's strategy.

The Manu comment was more just about how much temperament of the players comes in to the equation. You can say most forward units would hope to make a bust off a line-out in to quick ball, and equally you'd hope our forwards would be able to slow the opposition ball a bit when doing the same thing, but so would every other team in the world.

well yes, its what you should aspire to do- its obviously a contest tho. Not sure what point you are making- all I'm saying is that its a legit and good tactic, and shouldn't be written off, just have to work on the execution.

[16th man]

First warm up coming up on the 5th. I'm assuming that this means that the squad as it stands now is pretty much finalised in terms of who might be being considered.

How are we thinking Smeared Binjuice should approach the next month?

Shuffle the team around a bit for sharpness in the Welsh games and then try out our serious plans against the Irish. Anyone who is short of some minutes from that gets a run about against Fiji?

I think whoever booked the games in was expecting the first 3 to be really good testers, obviously not foreseeing the meltdown of Welsh rugby.

[Puja]

First warm up coming up on the 5th. I'm assuming that this means that the squad as it stands now is pretty much finalised in terms of who might be being considered.

How are we thinking Smeared Binjuice should approach the next month?

Shuffle the team around a bit for sharpness in the Welsh games and then try out our serious plans against the Irish. Anyone who is short of some minutes from that gets a run about against Fiji?

I think whoever booked the games in was expecting the first 3 to be really good testers, obviously not foreseeing the meltdown of Welsh rugby.

The first test is the only one that's coming before the final squad selection, so I would be using it as a test bed to see if any of the uncapped players can't cope with the step up to international rugby. Training is all very well, but there's no way to know if someone's actually able to play an international other than playing them. So that means Dan, Pearson, TWillis and would probably include Martin given how long ago and how few minutes his one cap was. I'd also have Cokanasiga on one wing (assuming that he's not already trained his way out of the squad), as he is basically starting again too. I'd have Arundell on the other wing, on the basis that he needs as much rugby and experience as we can get into him if we're going to use him.

Aside from that, I'd have everyone else as close to first choice XV as is available, to give those 6 the best chance they can have.

I don't think there's too much value in experimenting in these tests - we won't really learn anything. We can't still be deciding whether to go Ford/Farrell, Farrell, or Smith/Farrell (I know, I know, but we all know that we can't avoid him) at this late stage - Steep Backslide needs to have made his decisions already and these games are for bedding in combinations and improving cohesion. I wouldn't be averse to having our first XV playing most of the minutes in the Wales and Ireland games, with Fiji being used for the squad players to get their fitness up.

Puja

[FKAS]

I'd actually be looking at using those players that are perhaps under pressure for their position in the Wales game. A real go out their and stake a claim style message.

Rodd/VRR, Blamire, Cole
Martin, Hill
Ludlam, T Willis, Pearson
Care, Smith
Porter, Marchant
Cokanasiga, Arundell, May

Dan, Marler, Stuart, Ribbans, Dombrant, Youngs, Ford, Daly

I don't know whether we'll see VRR and Rodd swap again in terms of in and out of the squad. Real shame if VRR doesn't get a shot.

I think we could answer some selection questions there but at the same time still have a decent side playing and one that a lot of fans would be interested to see.

After the Wales game you'd want to start building more around the core 23.

[Banquo]

Play your first choice combos as much as you can. IMO you aren't answering many selection issues in scratch sides against scratch sides.

[Puja]

I'd actually be looking at using those players that are perhaps under pressure for their position in the Wales game. A real go out their and stake a claim style message.

Rodd/VRR, Blamire, Cole
Martin, Hill
Ludlam, T Willis, Pearson
Care, Smith
Porter, Marchant
Cokanasiga, Arundell, May

Dan, Marler, Stuart, Ribbans, Dombrant, Youngs, Ford, Daly

I don't know whether we'll see VRR and Rodd swap again in terms of in and out of the squad. Real shame if VRR doesn't get a shot.

I think we could answer some selection questions there but at the same time still have a decent side playing and one that a lot of fans would be interested to see.

After the Wales game you'd want to start building more around the core 23.

What is a performance in one-off nothing game going to prove though? Someone can play themselves out of a position, like a debutant sinking rather than swimming, but I don't see how anyone can really stake a claim in a one-off game in a scratch side, against what could be a Wales 2nd XV. If they've not made the squad based on the weeks of training camp, I don't think one game will turn it around.

Puja

[FKAS]

Play your first choice combos as much as you can. IMO you aren't answering many selection issues in scratch sides against scratch sides.

We're taking a squad to the RWC not a team. We need them all match sharp and some competitiveness for places helps push players on just that little bit more whilst nothing demotivates more than knowing you've got no chance of starting. Whilst I'd definitely look to give the first choice combos the bulk of the game time the understudies need minutes as well.

[FKAS]

I'd actually be looking at using those players that are perhaps under pressure for their position in the Wales game. A real go out their and stake a claim style message.

Rodd/VRR, Blamire, Cole
Martin, Hill
Ludlam, T Willis, Pearson
Care, Smith
Porter, Marchant
Cokanasiga, Arundell, May

Dan, Marler, Stuart, Ribbans, Dombrant, Youngs, Ford, Daly

I don't know whether we'll see VRR and Rodd swap again in terms of in and out of the squad. Real shame if VRR doesn't get a shot.

I think we could answer some selection questions there but at the same time still have a decent side playing and one that a lot of fans would be interested to see.

After the Wales game you'd want to start building more around the core 23.

What is a performance in one-off nothing game going to prove though? Someone can play themselves out of a position, like a debutant sinking rather than swimming, but I don't see how anyone can really stake a claim in a one-off game in a scratch side, against what could be a Wales 2nd XV. If they've not made the squad based on the weeks of training camp, I don't think one game will turn it around.

Puja

How players handle the occasion, whether they can stick to the game plan, whether they are stepping up to lead etc there's a lot of things you don't find out until an actual competitive match as a team.

There may be some calls dividing the coaching group as well, training only tells so much.

[Banquo]

Play your first choice combos as much as you can. IMO you aren't answering many selection issues in scratch sides against scratch sides.

Whilst I'd definitely look to give the first choice combos the bulk of the game time

well you agree then. The bench naturally get game time such is modern rugby-so rotate your bench.

[Banquo]

I'd actually be looking at using those players that are perhaps under pressure for their position in the Wales game. A real go out their and stake a claim style message.

Rodd/VRR, Blamire, Cole
Martin, Hill
Ludlam, T Willis, Pearson
Care, Smith
Porter, Marchant
Cokanasiga, Arundell, May

Dan, Marler, Stuart, Ribbans, Dombrant, Youngs, Ford, Daly

I don't know whether we'll see VRR and Rodd swap again in terms of in and out of the squad. Real shame if VRR doesn't get a shot.

I think we could answer some selection questions there but at the same time still have a decent side playing and one that a lot of fans would be interested to see.

After the Wales game you'd want to start building more around the core 23.

What is a performance in one-off nothing game going to prove though? Someone can play themselves out of a position, like a debutant sinking rather than swimming, but I don't see how anyone can really stake a claim in a one-off game in a scratch side, against what could be a Wales 2nd XV. If they've not made the squad based on the weeks of training camp, I don't think one game will turn it around.

Puja

How players handle the occasion, whether they can stick to the game plan, whether they are stepping up to lead etc there's a lot of things you don't find out until an actual competitive match as a team.

There may be some calls dividing the coaching group as well, training only tells so much.

These warm up games really arent the real thing.

[FKAS]

What is a performance in one-off nothing game going to prove though? Someone can play themselves out of a position, like a debutant sinking rather than swimming, but I don't see how anyone can really stake a claim in a one-off game in a scratch side, against what could be a Wales 2nd XV. If they've not made the squad based on the weeks of training camp, I don't think one game will turn it around.

Puja

How players handle the occasion, whether they can stick to the game plan, whether they are stepping up to lead etc there's a lot of things you don't find out until an actual competitive match as a team.

There may be some calls dividing the coaching group as well, training only tells so much.

These warm up games really arent the real thing.

They are if you think you're playing for your place in the world cup squad.

[Puja]

I'd actually be looking at using those players that are perhaps under pressure for their position in the Wales game. A real go out their and stake a claim style message.

Rodd/VRR, Blamire, Cole
Martin, Hill
Ludlam, T Willis, Pearson
Care, Smith
Porter, Marchant
Cokanasiga, Arundell, May

Dan, Marler, Stuart, Ribbans, Dombrant, Youngs, Ford, Daly

I don't know whether we'll see VRR and Rodd swap again in terms of in and out of the squad. Real shame if VRR doesn't get a shot.

I think we could answer some selection questions there but at the same time still have a decent side playing and one that a lot of fans would be interested to see.

After the Wales game you'd want to start building more around the core 23.

What is a performance in one-off nothing game going to prove though? Someone can play themselves out of a position, like a debutant sinking rather than swimming, but I don't see how anyone can really stake a claim in a one-off game in a scratch side, against what could be a Wales 2nd XV. If they've not made the squad based on the weeks of training camp, I don't think one game will turn it around.

Puja

How players handle the occasion, whether they can stick to the game plan, whether they are stepping up to lead etc there's a lot of things you don't find out until an actual competitive match as a team.

There may be some calls dividing the coaching group as well, training only tells so much.

But in a one-off? In a scratch side, against a scratch side? A lot of players can flatter to deceive under those circumstances.

If there is a specific call dividing the coaching group, then I can see the value, but I'll be disappointed if they're leaving more than 1-2 bits of selection to the last minute and basing them off one performance. Bandwidth and co should know their RWC squad by now, with only maybe a couple of unknowns.

Puja