RWC Training Squad

[p/d]

Hooker really concerns me. Once you get past George and LCD the stocks are really low.

What happened to the fella from Wuss who moved to France? Thought he looked a good candidate. That said bit of a soft spot for Dan, feisty little player with good hands and bit of gas.

[Oakboy]

That said; I don't recall ever being this disinterested in an England RWC squad (or rugby as a whole TBH), and I'll admit that I started falling out of love with the club game a few years ago when covid hit, and both Prem and Heiney competitions ruined themselves with weird formula - but even then, and even with Eddie in dross mode, I still loved the international game.

I tend to agree but I am wavering with this squad announcement because of the type of rugby that it seems set up to play. Jones announced something similar when SA trampled over us in the RWC final. We all know that forward competitiveness is essential and that size and physicality count for a lot. However, when there is no room at all to play any decent rugby, when territory is 99% of our game plan and when passing is a frowned-upon alternative to kicking, my eager anticipation of the KO for an England match tends to peter out.

Yes, we have limited top-class playing strength but there has to be some degree of ambition. Ugly wins have their place, of course. Ugly defeats just depress. Pretty defeats can at least entertain.

[Mellsblue]

Hooker really concerns me. Once you get past George and LCD the stocks are really low.

What happened to the fella from Wuss who moved to France? Thought he looked a good candidate. That said bit of a soft spot for Dan, feisty little player with good hands and bit of gas.

Yep, Dan should be some player. There’s plenty of promise in the squad for 2027.

[chris18501]

Curtis Langdon would have been worth a closer look. Not spectacular but good at the basics which,after all, is the first job and beggars can't be choosers atm at hooker!

[p/d]

Curtis Langdon would have been worth a closer look. Not spectacular but good at the basics which,after all, is the first job and beggars can't be choosers atm at hooker!

Cheers Chris. That's the fella.

[FKAS]

Hooker really concerns me. Once you get past George and LCD the stocks are really low.

I really hope Walker is getting some substantial game time this weekend.

[16th man]

Hooker really concerns me. Once you get past George and LCD the stocks are really low.

We seem to keep getting ourselves into these positions. It was the same when Robshaw packed it in. The only other player with a cap at 7 at that point was Haskell.

We're either firing through loads of players, with no one getting any meaningful time (wingers) or absolutely stuck on one or two options (hooker)

[jngf]

I definitely think Sheryl Blair needs to give Earl a starting run at 7 in one of the warm up matches- he might just turn out to be the best thing since sliced bread - who really knows at this point?

[FKAS]

Curtis Langdon would have been worth a closer look. Not spectacular but good at the basics which,after all, is the first job and beggars can't be choosers atm at hooker!

Cheers Chris. That's the fella.

Dolly was back from injury by the end of the season, Langdon had played well by all accounts over in France.

George McGuigan was fit by the end of the season as well wasn't he?

We had some options at hooker. Disappointed that Blamire hasn't kicked on, he's got such potential. Not really sure there's much point taking Dan.

[Danno]

Oh god

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/ ... -borthwick

[Oakboy]

Oh god

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/ ... -borthwick

Did you not like the sentiments expressed???

It was about as inspiring as the DT saying SB has gone for versatility in the context of omitting Slade - he can only play four positions after all (IC, OC, FH, FB).

[16th man]

Has Societal breakdown never watched a film, TV show or play?

No worries about not having a specialist back up....fittest he's ever been.... Going to play him as much as he can and he wants to play as much as he can.

Absolutely getting stretchered off onside the 1st 15 minutes on Saturday.

[jngf]

Has Societal breakdown never watched a film, TV show or play?

No worries about not having a specialist back up....fittest he's ever been.... Going to play him as much as he can and he wants to play as much as he can.

Absolutely getting stretchered off onside the 1st 15 minutes on Saturday.

From the power argument I can see sense in picking Billy at 8 if he’s genuinely fit and ready. My concern is that Lawes at 6 and Curry at 7 get picked as the first choices to accompany him and that is a little too far on the stodgy side for my liking. For me Lawes is more lock than backrow and Curry looks more comfortable as workrate/glue player 6 ( a la Richard Hill & Chris Robshaw ) than a specialist openside since he bulked up.

[fivepointer]

If you're taking 6 back rowers it wouldnt be the worst idea to have two specialist 8's. We have one just back from long term injury and three guys who play 7. Doesnt strike me as particularly balanced.

[Mellsblue]

I get despondent, realise we could pick a backline of:
Ford
Daly
Lawrence
Marchant
Watson
Steward
so briefly cheer up before realising that won’t happen and becoming despondent again.

[Stom]

I get despondent, realise we could pick a backline of:
Ford
Daly
Lawrence
Marchant
Watson
Steward
so briefly cheer up before realising that won’t happen and becoming despondent again.

Isn't that always the case? For the past 8 years?

We could have an incredible attacking lineup...

But Farrell will play.

And that kinda ruins everything.

[fivepointer]

2019

Forwards
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 86 caps) **
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 12 caps)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 11 caps)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 10 caps)
Jamie George (Saracens, 37 caps) *
Maro Itoje (Saracens, 27 caps)
George Kruis (Saracens, 32 caps) *
Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 59 caps) *
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 72 caps) **
Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints, 1 cap)
Joe Marler (Harlequins, 58 caps) *
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 22 caps)
Jack Singleton (Saracens, 1 cap)
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 9 caps)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 42 caps) *
Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 53 caps) *
Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons/Sale Sharks, 13 caps)

Backs
Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby, 5 caps)
Elliot Daly (Saracens, 31 caps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens, 70 caps) *
George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 56 caps) *
Piers Francis (Northampton Saints, 5 caps)
Willi Heinz (Gloucester Rugby, 1 cap)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 41 caps) *
Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 45 caps) *
Ruaridh McConnochie (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 33 caps) *
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 22 caps) *
Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 33 caps) *
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 34 caps) *
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 86 caps) **

* number of Rugby World Cup tournaments played

Back this time are Cole, Sinckler, Marler, Genge, George, Itoje, Lawes, Ludlam, Curry, Vunipola, Youngs, Ford, Farrell, Tuilagi, Watson, Daly who will mostly feature in our best 23. Out of the new players only Steward is a regular starter.

Depressing and sobering to conclude that 4 years on we dont look to be any stronger in any department.

[Puja]

There seems to be a lot of bemoaning and bewailing no specialist backup 8, when Ludlam played there for a chunk of Northampton's games and was also our second choice 8 in the 6N when Dombrandt went off. He's hardly a makeshift 8, and that's ignoring that Willis has played there a lot too.

Puja

[Banquo]

2019

Forwards
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 86 caps) **
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 12 caps)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 11 caps)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 10 caps)
Jamie George (Saracens, 37 caps) *
Maro Itoje (Saracens, 27 caps)
George Kruis (Saracens, 32 caps) *
Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 59 caps) *
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 72 caps) **
Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints, 1 cap)
Joe Marler (Harlequins, 58 caps) *
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 22 caps)
Jack Singleton (Saracens, 1 cap)
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 9 caps)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 42 caps) *
Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 53 caps) *
Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons/Sale Sharks, 13 caps)

Backs
Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby, 5 caps)
Elliot Daly (Saracens, 31 caps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens, 70 caps) *
George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 56 caps) *
Piers Francis (Northampton Saints, 5 caps)
Willi Heinz (Gloucester Rugby, 1 cap)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 41 caps) *
Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 45 caps) *
Ruaridh McConnochie (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 33 caps) *
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 22 caps) *
Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 33 caps) *
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 34 caps) *
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 86 caps) **

* number of Rugby World Cup tournaments played

Back this time are Cole, Sinckler, Marler, Genge, George, Itoje, Lawes, Ludlam, Curry, Vunipola, Youngs, Ford, Farrell, Tuilagi, Watson, Daly who will mostly feature in our best 23. Out of the new players only Steward is a regular starter.

Depressing and sobering to conclude that 4 years on we dont look to be any stronger in any department.

weaker tbh as those you've highlighted are generally older and not as good as back then, maybe Genge excepted.

[Mellsblue]

There seems to be a lot of bemoaning and bewailing no specialist backup 8, when Ludlam played there for a chunk of Northampton's games and was also our second choice 8 in the 6N when Dombrandt went off. He's hardly a makeshift 8, and that's ignoring that Willis has played there a lot too.

Puja

I’m presuming Ludlum has experience playing no8 in a retreating pack, given his club team, which will be relevant and useful experience.

[Stom]

2019

Forwards
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 86 caps) **
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 12 caps)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 11 caps)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 10 caps)
Jamie George (Saracens, 37 caps) *
Maro Itoje (Saracens, 27 caps)
George Kruis (Saracens, 32 caps) *
Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 59 caps) *
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 72 caps) **
Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints, 1 cap)
Joe Marler (Harlequins, 58 caps) *
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 22 caps)
Jack Singleton (Saracens, 1 cap)
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 9 caps)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 42 caps) *
Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 53 caps) *
Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons/Sale Sharks, 13 caps)

Backs
Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby, 5 caps)
Elliot Daly (Saracens, 31 caps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens, 70 caps) *
George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 56 caps) *
Piers Francis (Northampton Saints, 5 caps)
Willi Heinz (Gloucester Rugby, 1 cap)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 41 caps) *
Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 45 caps) *
Ruaridh McConnochie (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 33 caps) *
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 22 caps) *
Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 33 caps) *
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 34 caps) *
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 86 caps) **

* number of Rugby World Cup tournaments played

Back this time are Cole, Sinckler, Marler, Genge, George, Itoje, Lawes, Ludlam, Curry, Vunipola, Youngs, Ford, Farrell, Tuilagi, Watson, Daly who will mostly feature in our best 23. Out of the new players only Steward is a regular starter.

Depressing and sobering to conclude that 4 years on we dont look to be any stronger in any department.

weaker tbh as those you've highlighted are generally older and not as good as back then, maybe Genge excepted.

Just showed what a poor decision it was to stick with Eddie after 2019. Hopefully after this WC we might get a freshen up.

[Mellsblue]

2019

Forwards
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 86 caps) **
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 12 caps)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 11 caps)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 10 caps)
Jamie George (Saracens, 37 caps) *
Maro Itoje (Saracens, 27 caps)
George Kruis (Saracens, 32 caps) *
Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 59 caps) *
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 72 caps) **
Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints, 1 cap)
Joe Marler (Harlequins, 58 caps) *
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 22 caps)
Jack Singleton (Saracens, 1 cap)
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 9 caps)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 42 caps) *
Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 53 caps) *
Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons/Sale Sharks, 13 caps)

Backs
Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby, 5 caps)
Elliot Daly (Saracens, 31 caps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens, 70 caps) *
George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 56 caps) *
Piers Francis (Northampton Saints, 5 caps)
Willi Heinz (Gloucester Rugby, 1 cap)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 41 caps) *
Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 45 caps) *
Ruaridh McConnochie (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 33 caps) *
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 22 caps) *
Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 33 caps) *
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 34 caps) *
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 86 caps) **

* number of Rugby World Cup tournaments played

Back this time are Cole, Sinckler, Marler, Genge, George, Itoje, Lawes, Ludlam, Curry, Vunipola, Youngs, Ford, Farrell, Tuilagi, Watson, Daly who will mostly feature in our best 23. Out of the new players only Steward is a regular starter.

Depressing and sobering to conclude that 4 years on we dont look to be any stronger in any department.

weaker tbh as those you've highlighted are generally older and not as good as back then, maybe Genge excepted.

Just showed what a poor decision it was to stick with Eddie after 2019. Hopefully after this WC we might get a freshen up.

Who are the shining test talents he didn’t call up? One thing you can’t accuse him of is not bringing new faces in to camp.

[Banquo]

2019

Forwards
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 86 caps) **
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 12 caps)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 11 caps)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 10 caps)
Jamie George (Saracens, 37 caps) *
Maro Itoje (Saracens, 27 caps)
George Kruis (Saracens, 32 caps) *
Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 59 caps) *
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 72 caps) **
Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints, 1 cap)
Joe Marler (Harlequins, 58 caps) *
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 22 caps)
Jack Singleton (Saracens, 1 cap)
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 9 caps)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 42 caps) *
Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 53 caps) *
Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons/Sale Sharks, 13 caps)

Backs
Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby, 5 caps)
Elliot Daly (Saracens, 31 caps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens, 70 caps) *
George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 56 caps) *
Piers Francis (Northampton Saints, 5 caps)
Willi Heinz (Gloucester Rugby, 1 cap)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 41 caps) *
Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 45 caps) *
Ruaridh McConnochie (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 33 caps) *
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 22 caps) *
Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 33 caps) *
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 34 caps) *
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 86 caps) **

* number of Rugby World Cup tournaments played

Back this time are Cole, Sinckler, Marler, Genge, George, Itoje, Lawes, Ludlam, Curry, Vunipola, Youngs, Ford, Farrell, Tuilagi, Watson, Daly who will mostly feature in our best 23. Out of the new players only Steward is a regular starter.

Depressing and sobering to conclude that 4 years on we dont look to be any stronger in any department.

weaker tbh as those you've highlighted are generally older and not as good as back then, maybe Genge excepted.

Just showed what a poor decision it was to stick with Eddie after 2019. Hopefully after this WC we might get a freshen up.

Not sure it shows that at all. I think it shows how few quality players have emerged since then- its not like either Septic Bum or Eddie didn't cast a wide net for talent.

I'd have binned him a year earlier than he was binned, that said- but that's hindsight tbh.

[Stom]

weaker tbh as those you've highlighted are generally older and not as good as back then, maybe Genge excepted.

Just showed what a poor decision it was to stick with Eddie after 2019. Hopefully after this WC we might get a freshen up.

Who are the shining test talents he didn’t call up? One thing you can’t accuse him of is not bringing new faces in to camp.

To counter a question with a question...which potential test talents has he given more than a game or two? We have Billy, Marler, Tuilagi, to name three, who have been picked a lot - or parachuted in last minute in front of players who are playing better at the time - above potential test players like Tom Willis, Mercer, Rodd, VRR, Murley, who have either hardly had a look in, or have had 1 game, or maybe 2.

Eddie's big thing was to bring players into squad for what seemed like 2 years before they either got into the actual squad or were cast off.

And I've not mentioned Farrell once!

[Oakboy]

Let's just say that SB's starting XV is:

Genge, George, Stuart, Itoje, Chessum, Lawes, Curry, Billy V, Youngs, Farrell, Watson, Tuilagi, Lawrence, Daly, Steward

Is that team unbeatable or can we pick one that just might give them a run. Say:

Marler, McGuigan, Sinckler, Hill, Martin, Ludlam, Willis, Willis, Mitchell, Smith, Arundell, Slade, Marchant, May, Malins.

All I am getting at is that we do have strength in depth (a 3rd XV of similar standard would not be difficult) and that shifting the emphasis of playing style might work too.

SB is setting himself up as 'win-or-bust' in a physical short-term fling. I don't altogether blame him but a couple of ugly defeats could do his reputation real harm.