England vs Wales - Sat 5.30pm - A New Hope

[FKAS]

I like that side. There’s a few held back, but that’s a decent 23. It seems odds not to feel either angry or numb.

There’s some minor things I’d like to see, like someone other than Steward at 15, but it’s warm up 2 and that’s grand.

Do you like the back row as a unit?

For a warm up game, and generally yeah. Earl gets a start at 7, Billy gets a run out and Lawes at 6 is a known entity. Willis to come on and maybe Earl moves to 8?

I think Billy and Lawes are the preferred options in those positions. Billy has talked about how Steve told him he wanted an imposing number 8 and how the world cup winning teams all have one. Vermulen, Read, Dayglo etc. Possibly why Mercer felt he didn't fit the role Borthwick wanted though Read wasn't particularly big so presuming it's not purely size related.

[Banquo]

Can’t imagine that’s too far off the starting XV.

Genge, Chessum, Curry to come in, maybe Watson

I think, if fit, Tuilagi will start at 12 with Lawrence at 13.

Genge is an interesting one. Up until the training squad was announced, I thought he was a certainty but why did he start last week and Marler this? I don't believe it had anything to do with the captaincy. I've always advocated starting with Marler and I wonder if SB is leaning that way.

Chessum, Curry, Watson - probably. However, I really can't believe we would not have Willis at 7. The territory/kicking game, by definition, means we have to spend a lot of game time trying to get the ball back. Willis is the best we have at doing just that.

Fair point on Willis. Though a Lawes (imo a cert to start at 6, not my choice tbh) Willis and Billy V isn't exactly quick/mobile. If its a tuilagi/lawrence combo, Ford has to be at 10. though obvs he won't be.

[Banquo]

I like that side. There’s a few held back, but that’s a decent 23. It seems odds not to feel either angry or numb.

There’s some minor things I’d like to see, like someone other than Steward at 15, but it’s warm up 2 and that’s grand.

bar faz obvs, and perforce Youngs on the bench. And Malins, who is a lucky soldier.

[Mikey Brown]

I’d love to see Willis get a go at 8 to be honest if we’re set on having a flanker cover there form the bench. If Curry is fit we need to find a way to fit Willis in the 23, and gives Earl a full 80 to show what he’s got.

[Banquo]

Do you like the back row as a unit?

For a warm up game, and generally yeah. Earl gets a start at 7, Billy gets a run out and Lawes at 6 is a known entity. Willis to come on and maybe Earl moves to 8?

I think Billy and Lawes are the preferred options in those positions. Billy has talked about how Steve told him he wanted an imposing number 8 and how the world cup winning teams all have one. Vermulen, Read, Dayglo etc. Possibly why Mercer felt he didn't fit the role Borthwick wanted though Read wasn't particularly big so presuming it's not purely size related.

Quite, I wouldn't read imposing as size- neither Dayglo nor Read were behemoths, but players who impacted games through willpower and rugby nous(and both were good athletes at their best)..and leadership. Billy...is different, so seems a bit of an odd juxtaposition frankly.

Good old Steve.

[Banquo]

I’d love to see Willis get a go at 8 to be honest if we’re set on having a flanker cover there form the bench. If Curry is fit we need to find a way to fit Willis in the 23, and gives Earl a full 80 to show what he’s got.

I don't really see J Willis as a test 8 at all tbh.

[Mikey Brown]

I’d love to see Willis get a go at 8 to be honest if we’re set on having a flanker cover there form the bench. If Curry is fit we need to find a way to fit Willis in the 23, and gives Earl a full 80 to show what he’s got.

I don't really see J Willis as a test 8 at all tbh.

Sure, but do you see Ludlam or Earl as one either?

Now I’ve actually thought it through we’re only resigning Willis to the bench if Curry is fit, in which case Curry can cover there better than any of the other flankers.

[16th man]

if Curry is fit, in which case Curry can have his strengths be wasted there better than any of the other flankers.

FTFY

[Banquo]

I’d love to see Willis get a go at 8 to be honest if we’re set on having a flanker cover there form the bench. If Curry is fit we need to find a way to fit Willis in the 23, and gives Earl a full 80 to show what he’s got.

I don't really see J Willis as a test 8 at all tbh.

Sure, but do you see Ludlam or Earl as one either?

Now I’ve actually thought it through we’re only resigning Willis to the bench if Curry is fit, in which case Curry can cover there better than any of the other flankers.

much more than wilis j but no to all

[Mikey Brown]

Jesus. Didn’t expect this to be such hard work. I am not advocating for any of them to play number 8, but we only have Billy so there has to be some sort of backup plan.

That’s all I was saying. If it comes to Earl making the 23 ahead of Willis purely for his ability to cover 8 I’d find it a bit annoying.

[Oakboy]

For a warm up game, and generally yeah. Earl gets a start at 7, Billy gets a run out and Lawes at 6 is a known entity. Willis to come on and maybe Earl moves to 8?

I think Billy and Lawes are the preferred options in those positions. Billy has talked about how Steve told him he wanted an imposing number 8 and how the world cup winning teams all have one. Vermulen, Read, Dayglo etc. Possibly why Mercer felt he didn't fit the role Borthwick wanted though Read wasn't particularly big so presuming it's not purely size related.

Quite, I wouldn't read imposing as size- neither Dayglo nor Read were behemoths, but players who impacted games through willpower and rugby nous(and both were good athletes at their best)..and leadership. Billy...is different, so seems a bit of an odd juxtaposition frankly.

Good old Steve.

Billy V, as an individual entity, has merit in size, strength and carrying ability. He has pretty good hands despite often coughing the ball up in contact. I can see his attributes as a player in many ways.

What I can't see is how he offers balance with any combinations on offer in the squad. Neither can I understand how he suits a 'kick for territory' game plan.

He and Lawes together provide a superb set-piece base and I can see their defensive/tackling merits. It seems inevitable that Earl will be detached unless he curbs his normal game and I don't understand why the trio is expected to gel. I don't rate Earl particularly but I can almost feel sorry for him starting for the first time in this set-up.

[Danno]

I think Billy and Lawes are the preferred options in those positions. Billy has talked about how Steve told him he wanted an imposing number 8 and how the world cup winning teams all have one. Vermulen, Read, Dayglo etc. Possibly why Mercer felt he didn't fit the role Borthwick wanted though Read wasn't particularly big so presuming it's not purely size related.

Quite, I wouldn't read imposing as size- neither Dayglo nor Read were behemoths, but players who impacted games through willpower and rugby nous(and both were good athletes at their best)..and leadership. Billy...is different, so seems a bit of an odd juxtaposition frankly.

Good old Steve.

Billy V, as an individual entity, has merit in size, strength and carrying ability. He has pretty good hands despite often coughing the ball up in contact. I can see his attributes as a player in many ways.

What I can't see is how he offers balance with any combinations on offer in the squad. Neither can I understand how he suits a 'kick for territory' game plan.

He and Lawes together provide a superb set-piece base and I can see their defensive/tackling merits. It seems inevitable that Earl will be detached unless he curbs his normal game and I don't understand why the trio is expected to gel. I don't rate Earl particularly but I can almost feel sorry for him starting for the first time in this set-up.

To argue about your most minor point, because this is the internet, Earl plays in the league with about 20% of this team, including the guy "passing", two hugely influential set piece players and the guy inside him in the backrow. If he can't make it work this week, then when?

[FKAS]

Quite, I wouldn't read imposing as size- neither Dayglo nor Read were behemoths, but players who impacted games through willpower and rugby nous(and both were good athletes at their best)..and leadership. Billy...is different, so seems a bit of an odd juxtaposition frankly.

Good old Steve.

Billy V, as an individual entity, has merit in size, strength and carrying ability. He has pretty good hands despite often coughing the ball up in contact. I can see his attributes as a player in many ways.

What I can't see is how he offers balance with any combinations on offer in the squad. Neither can I understand how he suits a 'kick for territory' game plan.

He and Lawes together provide a superb set-piece base and I can see their defensive/tackling merits. It seems inevitable that Earl will be detached unless he curbs his normal game and I don't understand why the trio is expected to gel. I don't rate Earl particularly but I can almost feel sorry for him starting for the first time in this set-up.

To argue about your most minor point, because this is the internet, Earl plays in the league with about 20% of this team, including the guy "passing", two hugely influential set piece players and the guy inside him in the backrow. If he can't make it work this week, then when?

Agreed. One of Earl's biggest strengths is the support lines he runs. With this backrow he really should get free reign to play the link role like he does for Sarries. In terms of team set up there's a number of similarities to how Sarries have played in the past.

[Banquo]

Billy V, as an individual entity, has merit in size, strength and carrying ability. He has pretty good hands despite often coughing the ball up in contact. I can see his attributes as a player in many ways.

What I can't see is how he offers balance with any combinations on offer in the squad. Neither can I understand how he suits a 'kick for territory' game plan.

He and Lawes together provide a superb set-piece base and I can see their defensive/tackling merits. It seems inevitable that Earl will be detached unless he curbs his normal game and I don't understand why the trio is expected to gel. I don't rate Earl particularly but I can almost feel sorry for him starting for the first time in this set-up.

To argue about your most minor point, because this is the internet, Earl plays in the league with about 20% of this team, including the guy "passing", two hugely influential set piece players and the guy inside him in the backrow. If he can't make it work this week, then when?

In terms of team set up there's a number of similarities to how Sarries have played in the past.

well, 40 % of the team are....sarries

[Puja]

The thing that struck me on Saturday, and Gatland mentioned it post-match, was that some England players were ‘blowing hard’ even before halftime. Wales were much the fitter side.

I felt that too. I'm hoping that what's actually happening is that there's still a month before the first game and we are still being flogged into shape by Walters with the aim of being at our peak for September. That would explain the tiredness and the number of second half errors from tired players.

That is the hopeful interpretation, of course. The other is that we're just unfit and crap.

Puja

Tindall was saying on GBR that having talked to a member of the Welsh squad they've been focusing on rugby related training whilst we've seen the England guys going pretty hard at the S&C side.

I'm hoping England just hadn't tapered for the first game. Suspect we'll find out more this weekend.

Either we were right or Borthwick gets his lines from reading this board:

After losing the second half at the Principality Stadium 14-0, Borthwick conceded that England are currently in an intensive block of training under head of strength and conditioning Aled Walters that will have an impact on their performance. However, Borthwick says that is part of a bigger plan geared towards England being in peak shape come their opening match against Argentina on September 9.

“We are pretty clear on where we are at and where we need to be,” Borthwick said. “We are on track with where we need to be. I think we want to perform really well this weekend and in the following two games as we build to the tournament. We want to perform to the best of our ability. I also know that we are ensuring our training is tailored for where we need to be in four weeks’ time. I know this team is going to get sharper over the subsequent weeks. As the training volume changes, the sharpness in their legs will change and that will lead to an even better performance on the pitch. Our priority is Saturday. We are really looking forward to being back at Twickenham and ensuring we are on track for where we need to be on September 9.”

https://12ft.io/proxy?ref=&q=https://ww ... s-gatland/

Puja

[Danno]

"focusing on rugby related training "

What the fuck else do they focus on??! Mario Kart?

[morepork]

Sharpness in their hands might be a more pointed focus. I feel for the athletes subjected to this nonsense.

[FKAS]

Sharpness in their hands might be a more pointed focus. I feel for the athletes subjected to this nonsense.

As far as I'm aware it's pretty common for most sports to do blocks of training with the harder S&C work at the start tapering off to be replaced by more skills focused work as it gets closer to competition.

[TheDasher]

Hello chaps, long time.

A much better side - I'd be shocked if we don't beat the Welsh this weekend.

- Not unhappy with Billy V being back in, but I would've taken one of TWillis or Mercer in the squad too. Big fan of Tom Willis.
- Lawes has been great at 6, no doubting that but I think with the dearth of decent second rows and high number of decent back-rowers, we should've pushed him back to lock personally.
- The 2nd row pairing for this game won't be big and heavy enough against the top sides in my opinion.
- With that said, I think the 3 1st choice locks should be Ribbans, Itoje and Lawes. I'd have probably taken Hill too.
- Happy with Marler, Genge, delighted Stuart is 1st choice (by the looks of it), and think picking Theo Dan as 2nd choice hooker is exciting.
- I'm not sure Sinckler should be on the plane - he' hasn't played well for England for a long time and doesn't look at it to me.
- Don't get the JVP thing, wouldn't be in my squad. Mitchell better.
- Wonderful that Daly is back on the wing, worked so beautifully in that season or two when he played there a lot.
- I've never seen Marchant play badly for England, if he was bigger people wouldn't over look him but he's powerful, clever and quick. I've become a big fan. Suddenly having a fit Lawrence, Marchant and Manu feels pretty good.

I think savage ball-ache has the squad to beat Argentina, no excuses.

[Banquo]

Hello chaps, long time.

A much better side - I'd be shocked if we don't beat the Welsh this weekend.

- Not unhappy with Billy V being back in, but I would've taken one of TWillis or Mercer in the squad too. Big fan of Tom Willis.
- Lawes has been great at 6, no doubting that but I think with the dearth of decent second rows and high number of decent back-rowers, we should've pushed him back to lock personally.
- The 2nd row pairing for this game won't be big and heavy enough against the top sides in my opinion.
- With that said, I think the 3 1st choice locks should be Ribbans, Itoje and Lawes. I'd have probably taken Hill too.
- Happy with Marler, Genge, delighted Stuart is 1st choice (by the looks of it), and think picking Theo Dan as 2nd choice hooker is exciting.
- I'm not sure Sinckler should be on the plane - he' hasn't played well for England for a long time and doesn't look at it to me.
- Don't get the JVP thing, wouldn't be in my squad. Mitchell better.
- Wonderful that Daly is back on the wing, worked so beautifully in that season or two when he played there a lot.
- I've never seen Marchant play badly for England, if he was bigger people wouldn't over look him but he's powerful, clever and quick. I've become a big fan. Suddenly having a fit Lawrence, Marchant and Manu feels pretty good.

I think savage ball-ache has the squad to beat Argentina, no excuses.

Argentina are a very decent outfit- they should have turned SA over in SA. I'm worried about them.

[TheDasher]

Hello chaps, long time.

A much better side - I'd be shocked if we don't beat the Welsh this weekend.

- Not unhappy with Billy V being back in, but I would've taken one of TWillis or Mercer in the squad too. Big fan of Tom Willis.
- Lawes has been great at 6, no doubting that but I think with the dearth of decent second rows and high number of decent back-rowers, we should've pushed him back to lock personally.
- The 2nd row pairing for this game won't be big and heavy enough against the top sides in my opinion.
- With that said, I think the 3 1st choice locks should be Ribbans, Itoje and Lawes. I'd have probably taken Hill too.
- Happy with Marler, Genge, delighted Stuart is 1st choice (by the looks of it), and think picking Theo Dan as 2nd choice hooker is exciting.
- I'm not sure Sinckler should be on the plane - he' hasn't played well for England for a long time and doesn't look at it to me.
- Don't get the JVP thing, wouldn't be in my squad. Mitchell better.
- Wonderful that Daly is back on the wing, worked so beautifully in that season or two when he played there a lot.
- I've never seen Marchant play badly for England, if he was bigger people wouldn't over look him but he's powerful, clever and quick. I've become a big fan. Suddenly having a fit Lawrence, Marchant and Manu feels pretty good.

I think savage ball-ache has the squad to beat Argentina, no excuses.

Argentina are a very decent outfit- they should have turned SA over in SA. I'm worried about them.

They are a decent outfit and I'm worried about them too. I suppose I'm saying that if we're going for it and want to improve quickly, we should be targeting a win over the Argies obviously and I think a top coach can achieve that with this squad. This squad is capable of beating the Argies, there we go. But I'd suggest they're favourites, certainly.

[Banquo]

Hello chaps, long time.

A much better side - I'd be shocked if we don't beat the Welsh this weekend.

- Not unhappy with Billy V being back in, but I would've taken one of TWillis or Mercer in the squad too. Big fan of Tom Willis.
- Lawes has been great at 6, no doubting that but I think with the dearth of decent second rows and high number of decent back-rowers, we should've pushed him back to lock personally.
- The 2nd row pairing for this game won't be big and heavy enough against the top sides in my opinion.
- With that said, I think the 3 1st choice locks should be Ribbans, Itoje and Lawes. I'd have probably taken Hill too.
- Happy with Marler, Genge, delighted Stuart is 1st choice (by the looks of it), and think picking Theo Dan as 2nd choice hooker is exciting.
- I'm not sure Sinckler should be on the plane - he' hasn't played well for England for a long time and doesn't look at it to me.
- Don't get the JVP thing, wouldn't be in my squad. Mitchell better.
- Wonderful that Daly is back on the wing, worked so beautifully in that season or two when he played there a lot.
- I've never seen Marchant play badly for England, if he was bigger people wouldn't over look him but he's powerful, clever and quick. I've become a big fan. Suddenly having a fit Lawrence, Marchant and Manu feels pretty good.

I think savage ball-ache has the squad to beat Argentina, no excuses.

Argentina are a very decent outfit- they should have turned SA over in SA. I'm worried about them.

They are a decent outfit and I'm worried about them too. I suppose I'm saying that if we're going for it and want to improve quickly, we should be targeting a win over the Argies obviously and I think a top coach can achieve that with this squad. This squad is capable of beating the Argies, there we go. But I'd suggest they're favourites, certainly.

They've actually got a dangerous backline that they actually use!

I'm not sure slinky bastard knows how he wants the team to play tbh; his instinct is kick and clap I think- and not a problem if we do it really well, but I'm not sure we are tough enough up front to play a territory game.

[TheDasher]

Argentina are a very decent outfit- they should have turned SA over in SA. I'm worried about them.

They are a decent outfit and I'm worried about them too. I suppose I'm saying that if we're going for it and want to improve quickly, we should be targeting a win over the Argies obviously and I think a top coach can achieve that with this squad. This squad is capable of beating the Argies, there we go. But I'd suggest they're favourites, certainly.

They've actually got a dangerous backline that they actually use!

I'm not sure slinky bastard knows how he wants the team to play tbh; his instinct is kick and clap I think- and not a problem if we do it really well, but I'm not sure we are tough enough up front to play a territory game.

Agreed, he hasn't picked a pack of forward to try and be dominant up front and in the set piece. I'm not sure how/why he thinks we'll be strong enough up front, I'd love to hear him address that.

We have enough talent in the backs to challenge top sides in my view, it's the tight five and potentially at number 8 where we're in real trouble.

[Banquo]

They are a decent outfit and I'm worried about them too. I suppose I'm saying that if we're going for it and want to improve quickly, we should be targeting a win over the Argies obviously and I think a top coach can achieve that with this squad. This squad is capable of beating the Argies, there we go. But I'd suggest they're favourites, certainly.

They've actually got a dangerous backline that they actually use!

I'm not sure slinky bastard knows how he wants the team to play tbh; his instinct is kick and clap I think- and not a problem if we do it really well, but I'm not sure we are tough enough up front to play a territory game.

Agreed, he hasn't picked a pack of forward to try and be dominant up front and in the set piece. I'm not sure how/why he thinks we'll be strong enough up front, I'd love to hear him address that.

We have enough talent in the backs to challenge top sides in my view, it's the tight five and potentially at number 8 where we're in real trouble.

TBH in theory we could field a mobile and quick team that would scare others if we had the personal and unit skills to execute under intl pressure and fatigue. I think they'd run into a brick wall with SA, France and Ireland though, probably. But then again, I think the same would be true for the ultra physical 23 we could nearly put out

[Oakboy]

They've actually got a dangerous backline that they actually use!

I'm not sure slinky bastard knows how he wants the team to play tbh; his instinct is kick and clap I think- and not a problem if we do it really well, but I'm not sure we are tough enough up front to play a territory game.

Agreed, he hasn't picked a pack of forward to try and be dominant up front and in the set piece. I'm not sure how/why he thinks we'll be strong enough up front, I'd love to hear him address that.

We have enough talent in the backs to challenge top sides in my view, it's the tight five and potentially at number 8 where we're in real trouble.

TBH in theory we could field a mobile and quick team that would scare others if we had the personal and unit skills to execute under intl pressure and fatigue. I think they'd run into a brick wall with SA, France and Ireland though, probably. But then again, I think the same would be true for the ultra physical 23 we could nearly put out

I suppose choosing between the two is the crunch. Going for broke with the speed option would be my choice if for no other reason that it would surprise the opposition. The biggest issue with the physical route is that we are so predictable. To win with it we have to cut out all mistakes (we won't have the ball for long enough to do otherwise) and we have to have the lowest penalty count of any major team (which we have yet to achieve). I think there is actually more risk with the approach (whereas it is touted as the safety-first option).