England vs Wales - Sat 5.30pm - A New Hope

[Mikey Brown]

Yeah I feel like people go way over the top about how bad 2015 was. There was an absurd amount of hype for a home World Cup and we fluffed two big games. I don’t think even by big margins?

we were abysmal. And got smashed by oz....33-13. So I don't its OTT to say we were shyte. What is fair to say is that the side had done pretty well in the preceding 6N but imploded at the RWC.

Oh. Lol. Fair enough. Maybe I have blocked it out after all.

[16th man]

Yeah I feel like people go way over the top about how bad 2015 was. There was an absurd amount of hype for a home World Cup and we fluffed two big games. I don’t think even by big margins?

we were abysmal. And got smashed by oz....33-13. So I don't its OTT to say we were shyte. What is fair to say is that the side had done pretty well in the preceding 6N but imploded at the RWC.

2015 was very much an inexperienced coaching team lacking the courage of their convictions and letting what seemed to be a couple of good years of development just completely implode as they lost their heads. That includes apparently buying into some proper snake oil nonsense on target weights and whatever the hell they did in Colarado which saw a pack that had been winning penalties for fun off the AB and Bok scrums in the previous AIs looking like boxers that had been forced into drastic measures to make weight and left themselves empty come fight night.

That then culminated in us not putting the Welsh away when we were well on top in the first half, then making some weird changes and falling to pieces in the second half.

The Ozzie game was a pretty decent Australian side cutting up a team that reacted very poorly to the set back, taking a lot of wrong lessons and being all over the place as a result.

[Banquo]

Yeah I feel like people go way over the top about how bad 2015 was. There was an absurd amount of hype for a home World Cup and we fluffed two big games. I don’t think even by big margins?

we were abysmal. And got smashed by oz....33-13. So I don't its OTT to say we were shyte. What is fair to say is that the side had done pretty well in the preceding 6N but imploded at the RWC.

2015 was very much an inexperienced coaching team lacking the courage of their convictions and letting what seemed to be a couple of good years of development just completely implode as they lost their heads. That includes apparently buying into some proper snake oil nonsense on target weights and whatever the hell they did in Colarado which saw a pack that had been winning penalties for fun off the AB and Bok scrums in the previous AIs looking like boxers that had been forced into drastic measures to make weight and left themselves empty come fight night.

That then culminated in us not putting the Welsh away when we were well on top in the first half, then making some weird changes and falling to pieces in the second half.

The Ozzie game was a pretty decent Australian side cutting up a team that reacted very poorly to the set back, taking a lot of wrong lessons and being all over the place as a result.

yep, we were very poor for a game and a half. The coaching did lack something, but they'd had three years at the helm by then and they made an unholy mess of a team that had shown some promise; what Jones took over was real mess in morale terms.

[Mellsblue]

2015 was just a coaching team out of their depth, imo, but the team was on fairly solid foundations and a good group of young players, most of whom are still first choice. Sassy Barwench has inherited a dysfunctional team and an aging squad.

hmm. They played terribly, and that coaching team had been in place for 3 years. At least two of the coaches have gone on to be very good in different environments. BTW 5 of the team who played v Oz are in the 2023 squad (and two shouldn't be there )

They did play terribly but I think that was just the coaches panicking as they entered the RWC: making Billy lose multiple kg, Burgess shoehorned in, Fazlet over Ford etc etc. but we’re consistently above average otherwise. That may just be rise tinted spectacles.

[16th man]

we were abysmal. And got smashed by oz....33-13. So I don't its OTT to say we were shyte. What is fair to say is that the side had done pretty well in the preceding 6N but imploded at the RWC.

2015 was very much an inexperienced coaching team lacking the courage of their convictions and letting what seemed to be a couple of good years of development just completely implode as they lost their heads. That includes apparently buying into some proper snake oil nonsense on target weights and whatever the hell they did in Colarado which saw a pack that had been winning penalties for fun off the AB and Bok scrums in the previous AIs looking like boxers that had been forced into drastic measures to make weight and left themselves empty come fight night.

That then culminated in us not putting the Welsh away when we were well on top in the first half, then making some weird changes and falling to pieces in the second half.

The Ozzie game was a pretty decent Australian side cutting up a team that reacted very poorly to the set back, taking a lot of wrong lessons and being all over the place as a result.

yep, we were very poor for a game and a half. The coaching did lack something, but they'd had three years at the helm by then and they made an unholy mess of a team that had shown some promise; what Jones took over was real mess in morale terms.

They did take over an absolute shambles from Johnson to.

I've mentioned my England coach cycle of doom on here before. It works for football, cricket and the rugby team.

1) Coach is over reliant on his favourites, picking them even if they're out of form and injured. Seige mentality has deteriorated into near pathological contrariness when it comes to form players being championed by the press. Prolonged run of bad results gets them fired.

2) New coach comes in. Results immediately improve as previous regimes off form and injured favourites are moved on, and form players are brought in. Lots of talk about a new culture of positivity in the camp.

3) There's an encouraging display at a tournament, with us doing pretty well, and a strong group being formed. Coach is kept on with an expectation that we'll grown on.

4) The strong group becomes increasingly cemented into place, impervious to drops in form or niggling injuries. Results start to drop off.

5) A strategy free attempt to bring in new player and try a new approach results in poor results, and the old favourites soon brought back, and the group becoming even more impenetrable.

Loop around to step 1.


The 2015 crew short circuited that by accelerating to step 5 inside 3 years.

[Scrumhead]

I don’t think we were that bad in the 2015 RWC. The ignominy of crashing out in the group stages of a tournament we were hosting probably made it look worse than it actually was.

As @16th Man said, we really should have put the Welsh away. It’s worth remembering there wasn’t really anything between us and them at that point from a quality/depth POV.

Australia were a simply better side who kicked us hard when we were already down. They did go on to make the final though, so I don’t really think there’s real shame in losing that game.

Would we have remembered it differently if we hadn’t been at home? I think we might.

[Banquo]

I don’t think we were that bad in the 2015 RWC. The ignominy of crashing out in the group stages of a tournament we were hosting probably made it look worse than it actually was.

As @16th Man said, we really should have put the Welsh away. It’s worth remembering there wasn’t really anything between us and them at that point from a quality/depth POV.

Australia were a simply better side who kicked us hard when we were already down. They did go on to make the final though, so I don’t really think there’s real shame in losing that game.

Would we have remembered it differently if we hadn’t been at home? I think we might.

we were seriously dire for 120 minutes of the big games- oz stuffed us. anyhoo, the point was Eddie hardly had a golden inheritance morale wise, given the rapid sacking of the coaching staff and the pretty dire state of the team camp (burgess gate etc).

[Banquo]

2015 was very much an inexperienced coaching team lacking the courage of their convictions and letting what seemed to be a couple of good years of development just completely implode as they lost their heads. That includes apparently buying into some proper snake oil nonsense on target weights and whatever the hell they did in Colarado which saw a pack that had been winning penalties for fun off the AB and Bok scrums in the previous AIs looking like boxers that had been forced into drastic measures to make weight and left themselves empty come fight night.

That then culminated in us not putting the Welsh away when we were well on top in the first half, then making some weird changes and falling to pieces in the second half.

The Ozzie game was a pretty decent Australian side cutting up a team that reacted very poorly to the set back, taking a lot of wrong lessons and being all over the place as a result.

yep, we were very poor for a game and a half. The coaching did lack something, but they'd had three years at the helm by then and they made an unholy mess of a team that had shown some promise; what Jones took over was real mess in morale terms.

They did take over an absolute shambles from Johnson to.

I've mentioned my England coach cycle of doom on here before. It works for football, cricket and the rugby team.

1) Coach is over reliant on his favourites, picking them even if they're out of form and injured. Seige mentality has deteriorated into near pathological contrariness when it comes to form players being championed by the press. Prolonged run of bad results gets them fired.

2) New coach comes in. Results immediately improve as previous regimes off form and injured favourites are moved on, and form players are brought in. Lots of talk about a new culture of positivity in the camp.

3) There's an encouraging display at a tournament, with us doing pretty well, and a strong group being formed. Coach is kept on with an expectation that we'll grown on.

4) The strong group becomes increasingly cemented into place, impervious to drops in form or niggling injuries. Results start to drop off.

5) A strategy free attempt to bring in new player and try a new approach results in poor results, and the old favourites soon brought back, and the group becoming even more impenetrable.

Loop around to step 1.


The 2015 crew short circuited that by accelerating to step 5 inside 3 years.

i agree they took over a shambles from Jonno; and I've said loads of times that we've been pretty shyte generally since 2003. We tend to blame the coaches- and none bar Eddie since 2003 have actually done a semblance of a good coaching job really (and again, he was desperate post 2019 even accounting for covid)- but we can't keep glossing over the quality of players we are producing.

[p/d]

But that’s my point. Jones took over with nothing to lose four years out from a WC. SB has taken over one year out from a coach who - as you said - did a semblance of a good job.

As a collective voice it was ‘give SB time’ but we are such a fickle lot - press and supporters - that ‘time’ becomes a very narrow window. His stick is soiled because of Jones’ successful honeymoon period not because of the pool of players.

[Banquo]

But that’s my point. Jones took over with nothing to lose four years out from a WC. SB has taken over one year out from a coach who - as you said - did a semblance of a good job.

As a collective voice it was ‘give SB time’ but we are such a fickle lot - press and supporters - that ‘time’ becomes a very narrow window. His stick is soiled because of Jones’ successful honeymoon period not because of the pool of players.

You had a point? I must have missed that . So you are saying Soiled Beechstick has a shitty stick because he doesn't have time to turn it around but will nonetheless be compared with Eddie, but we do have a good bunch of players/irrespective of how good/bad the players are? But that Jones didn't have a shitty stick handed to him because he had time, although he inherited a squad with shyte morale but some promise. (I did say-Eddie was handed a sh*tty stick as well, but in fairness he had a lot more time to sort it out-)

Either way...my broader point was that shitty sticks and outcomes have been the norm since 2003 bar EJ, who turned a shitty stick into a grand slam and a w/c semi, but then handed a re-spoiled stick to Shoddy Belittler who I agree has had little time, and hardly has a great player group (and we can do the bald men fighting over a comb at 8, 9 and other places), so my expectations are low, and I haven't really ripped into Borthers (despite my private opinion that he lacks charisma, leadership skills and any knowledge of back play). Our system needs a huge overhaul, and we need to stop thinking head coaches can magic quality from nowhere (though we should at least be better than the sum of the parts- and generally haven't been in 20 years (and decades before in truth)).

Possibly our divergence seems to be over what is possible with the players we produce?- though earlier you and Dasher were invoking the spirit of Beef in bemoaning lack of physical nutters, so again a bit confusing.

[Puja]

Was it just me that saw Plumtree make head-on-head contact with Steward on that tackle that led to the 50:22?

Puja

[Puja]

Already too many lost balls in contact. I do feel that Lawrence doesn't take good enough care of the ball generally and he's the latest offender.

Ref's been good so far. First time I've seen him live and he's living up to his reputation. Certainly making a better fist of the scrums than Berry did last week.

Puja

[badback]

Earl is doing well I think

[morepork]

Has it started yet?

[paddy no 11]

Amongst the worst professional rugby ever played

[Puja]

Lawrence has been poor. We're just using him as a battering ram and he's not doing a great job there. Our ball is still far too slow and our presentation is poor.

Puja

[16th man]

Pfffffft

[Puja]

Has it started yet?

No-one's sure.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

Interested to know how Arundell’s professional foul was worse than Plumtree’s dive over the top of the ruck and then refusal to let go of the ball…

[Puja]

Henry Arundell yellow carded! What will we do if we want to pass to our right wing?!

Puja

[16th man]

Searching desperately for silver linings, the maul defence has been pretty good?

[Puja]

Interested to know how Arundell’s professional foul was worse than Plumtree’s dive over the top of the ruck and then refusal to let go of the ball…

In fairness, we had no other defenders around, so it was definitely killing a break. I'm always in favour of a ref punishing something cynical first time as well.

Puja

[Puja]

England apparently up 3-0 on "Turnovers won", but I suspect the more useful stat for this game would be "Possession Conceded".

Puja

[Mellsblue]

Interested to know how Arundell’s professional foul was worse than Plumtree’s dive over the top of the ruck and then refusal to let go of the ball…

In fairness, we had no other defenders around, so it was definitely killing a break. I'm always in favour of a ref punishing something cynical first time as well.

Puja

We had every defender behind the ball and the ball was just outside the 22. For Plumtree we had a line break around the halfway line.

[16th man]

Hit our jumper so that's immediately a 100% improvement on last week.