RWC Training Squad

[Banquo]

Pretty much reinforces the point that Eddie did next to nothing to bring through the next set of players and develop them for England after the last world cup.

does it? or as before...where is this mystery set of high performers? iirc, Eddie ditched a fair few faces. Who then got recalled, and retained by Slightly Backward.

Would Stiffy Bangjob be looking to bring back Cole and Marler if Jones had successfully brought through a stable of props? I mean realistically we have four capped tightheads to choose from and two of those are from Leicester where he had a hand in rejuvenating Cole and developing Heyes.

Billy V was brought back into the fold by Jones before. Who else we looking at, Daly?

I don't think Bigwedge is bringing in many experienced options that didn't t play for England in the last 12 months of Eddie's reign anyway.

It's the problem so close to the world cup. You need some experience in the squad.

aside from ditching the rest of my post, I meant that Jones had recalled those bods (reason, the folks he tried in their place weren't up to much), but that SB had also retained them. Which tells you the obvious. Neither coach could magic class players from nowhere- and you definitely can't accuse Eddie of not looking for talent, nor bringing them into camps/taking on tours and having a good look.

[FKAS]

Who are these stable of EQ props he should’ve brought through?

I mean that is the job of the England coach building for a world cup, find and develop talent.

Schonert is EQ, Heyes has only 7 caps, Paul Hill has 8 caps and one in the last four or five years. I know Painter and Street haven't progressed as we'd have liked out of under 20s which didn't help.

Loosehead we've seen Ellis come into his own which is good though helped by Marler retiring, unretiring and dumb suspensions. Rodd's caps came during an injury hit spell though at least we used a young player there.

It will have to be an area for SB to work on post world cup, the lack of depth being generated.

Paul Hill?!?!?!? Your post has rather proved Banquo’s point.

At 28 he's closing in on 200 games for Saints. Still the most mobile tighthead in the league. Lack of quality scrum coaching has been his downfall. Probably should have left Saints to move his game on. Untapped development there.

Much like Brookes, untapped development there. He just didn't want to apply himself though.

[Oakboy]

How much of the unbeaten initial run from 2016 was down to Jones's coaching? At the time I remember many on here talking about sneaking wins against the run of play, luck etc. Were we good or lucky? Was the run the result of changes by Jones or the culmination of ground work by his predecessor? Were we truly awful at the RWC 2015 and marvellous at 2019? How narrow was the gap in terms of the results achieved?

Now, with hindsight, looking at Jones's and Lancaster's performaces since moving on from England who would do a better job tomorrow?

In all the various considerations I only believe in one for certain. England should have broken the bank to get Sean Edwards on board at some point.

You dont win 20 games on the spin with luck alone. Jones did a first rate job in the first 4 years of his tenure. Post 2019 WC the wheels came off badly but there's no denying we played well and achieved significant results under him in the first half of his appointment.

and as I pointed out, that's a pretty unique coaching record for england since 2003. Personally I think our system is fckd for intl purposes- we get a few decent players occasionally through luck it appears.

What do you mean by system, Tim? Are you referring to the whole structure - clubs, leagues, junior development, England coach appointment procedure, RFU governing etc.?

[Mellsblue]

I mean that is the job of the England coach building for a world cup, find and develop talent.

Schonert is EQ, Heyes has only 7 caps, Paul Hill has 8 caps and one in the last four or five years. I know Painter and Street haven't progressed as we'd have liked out of under 20s which didn't help.

Loosehead we've seen Ellis come into his own which is good though helped by Marler retiring, unretiring and dumb suspensions. Rodd's caps came during an injury hit spell though at least we used a young player there.

It will have to be an area for SB to work on post world cup, the lack of depth being generated.

Paul Hill?!?!?!? Your post has rather proved Banquo’s point.

At 28 he's closing in on 200 games for Saints. Still the most mobile tighthead in the league. Lack of quality scrum coaching has been his downfall. Probably should have left Saints to move his game on. Untapped development there.

Sounds like a shoo-in for almost any test team…

[Banquo]

You dont win 20 games on the spin with luck alone. Jones did a first rate job in the first 4 years of his tenure. Post 2019 WC the wheels came off badly but there's no denying we played well and achieved significant results under him in the first half of his appointment.

and as I pointed out, that's a pretty unique coaching record for england since 2003. Personally I think our system is fckd for intl purposes- we get a few decent players occasionally through luck it appears.

What do you mean by system, Tim? Are you referring to the whole structure - clubs, leagues, junior development, England coach appointment procedure, RFU governing etc.?

yus. No real pyramid, no (consistent) common purpose, not rigorous enough coaching assessment and coaching within that.

[p/d]

Stop appointing ex forwards as coaches. Blinkered lambs

Robinson, Johnson, Lancaster , Eddie and Sunshine Boulevard - all forwards though none of them exactly rocket scientists ( though to be fair Robinson was a maths teacher and MJ and SB are statos )

Hence his quick calculation that Henry Paul was a 33 percenter, and dragged him off after 26 mins.

[Banquo]

Pretty much reinforces the point that Eddie did next to nothing to bring through the next set of players and develop them for England after the last world cup.

does it? or as before...where is this mystery set of high performers? iirc, Eddie ditched a fair few faces. Who then got recalled, and retained by Slightly Backward.

Frankly England have been mostly meh to crap since 2003, bar 2016-2019 when we were mostly pretty good. But in that whole period we havent consistently produced really top notch players imo. Is it a succession of crap coaches, or something systemic? Tho we certainly have had apparently crap coaches (some of whom have turned out ok with better players/regimes). Food for thought.

Would be refreshing to have a former back rather than forward be the next England head coach, all things equal I think they tend to take a more cerebral and strategic approach to the game.

..well obviously

[Banquo]

a propos of irrelevent to thread, Jones has dropped Hooper and Cooper from the wobblies RWC squad

[Mikey Brown]

a propos of irrelevent to thread, Jones has dropped Hooper and Cooper from the wobblies RWC squad

This really is something.

Slipper = 20% of caps in Australia RWC squad

45% of squad have 0-5 caps

My optimism about England has gone up about 600% in the last couple of hours.

[jngf]

a propos of irrelevent to thread, Jones has dropped Hooper and Cooper from the wobblies RWC squad

Hooper way to skillfull and pacy ( and short! )to meet Eddie’s vision of an open side

[p/d]

What a player!

That’s all

[Mellsblue]

Daily Mail reporting that JVP is out of the RWC and will be replaced by Mitchell.

[fivepointer]

Great pity for JVP. He hasnt kicked on as we perhaps thought he would but i'd want him in my WC squad.

[Oakboy]

Sad for JVP. Will Mitchell jump into the starting shirt? It's odd either way.

[Puja]

Sad for JVP. Will Mitchell jump into the starting shirt? It's odd either way.

I don't think starting shirt - I do rate Youngs higher than most on here, as he is generally good for 9 out of every 10 minutes he's on a pitch - but I think he's got a good claim to the 21 shirt. If we're 6 points down vs Argentina with 15 to go, then being able to bring Mitchell and Smith off the bench is a hell of a weapon.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

Sad for JVP. Will Mitchell jump into the starting shirt? It's odd either way.

I don't think starting shirt - I do rate Youngs higher than most on here, as he is generally good for 9 out of every 10 minutes he's on a pitch - but I think he's got a good claim to the 21 shirt. If we're 6 points down vs Argentina with 15 to go, then being able to bring Mitchell and Smith off the bench is a hell of a weapon.

Puja

I hadn’t even thought that Farrell’s ban would mean Smith def on the bench. The butterfly effect in action and what a beautiful butterfly it is.

[Mellsblue]

Obvs not England squad or a team we’re likely to play but big news for the tournament:

[p/d]

Sad for JVP. Will Mitchell jump into the starting shirt? It's odd either way.

I don't think starting shirt - I do rate Youngs higher than most on here, as he is generally good for 9 out of every 10 minutes he's on a pitch - but I think he's got a good claim to the 21 shirt. If we're 6 points down vs Argentina with 15 to go, then being able to bring Mitchell and Smith off the bench is a hell of a weapon.

Puja

Then the press, SCW & Oakboy will be highlighting what Farrell brings that Ford lacks

[Oakboy]

Sad for JVP. Will Mitchell jump into the starting shirt? It's odd either way.

I don't think starting shirt - I do rate Youngs higher than most on here, as he is generally good for 9 out of every 10 minutes he's on a pitch - but I think he's got a good claim to the 21 shirt. If we're 6 points down vs Argentina with 15 to go, then being able to bring Mitchell and Smith off the bench is a hell of a weapon.

Puja

Then the press, SCW & Oakboy will be highlighting what Farrell brings that Ford lacks

I'm feeling thick this morning, p/d. Explain, please.

[francoisfou]

Obvs not England squad or a team we’re likely to play but big news for the tournament:

Feckin’ warm up matches. We’ll be deprived of watching one of the world’s best.

[Banquo]

Obvs not England squad or a team we’re likely to play but big news for the tournament:

Feckin’ warm up matches. We’ll be deprived of watching one of the world’s best.

I think France are better with Jalibert tbh

[Puja]

Sad for JVP. Will Mitchell jump into the starting shirt? It's odd either way.

I don't think starting shirt - I do rate Youngs higher than most on here, as he is generally good for 9 out of every 10 minutes he's on a pitch - but I think he's got a good claim to the 21 shirt. If we're 6 points down vs Argentina with 15 to go, then being able to bring Mitchell and Smith off the bench is a hell of a weapon.

Puja

Then the press, SCW & Oakboy will be highlighting what Farrell brings that Ford lacks

Yeah, we absolutely cannot lose the Argentina game now. If we do, it'll be constant cut-away shots to Farrell looking disconsolate in the stands and commentators mourning, "Farrell can't help England now. What could've been, etc etc." It'd be **unbearable**.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

Obvs not England squad or a team we’re likely to play but big news for the tournament:

Feckin’ warm up matches. We’ll be deprived of watching one of the world’s best.

I think France are better with Jalibert tbh

I think Jalibert is the better player but the Toulouse 9-10 combo is probs more important. I feel like we’ve had this convo before?
The injury also gives them the chance to get experience into Hastoy.

[Which Tyler]

I think Jalibert is the better player but the Toulouse 9-10 combo is probs more important.

Agreed - for my money, taken on their own, Jalibert is the better player, but the understanding Ntamack has with Dupont is practically telepathic and puts him ahead for a team selection.

[Puja]

Mitchell now confirmed as in the England squad.

Puja