How long a ban?

[Oakboy]

Its odd how a ban on an English player has united the various fractions of this board in a way I've not seen before. I do feel sorry for Farrell the man. Not his on field actions, but just as a bloke this must be incredibly stressful. He probably wishes he just had then ban and could get on with life.

Can't disagree but his character is portrayed as 'tough, gritty northerner with a league background'. He might be a great bloke off the field but this incident is a direct result of his character in that he is mega-competitive (mentally and physically) with an upright tackling technique that he chose to apply. Effectively, he can only blame himself, is what I am trying to say. Also, he went along with a smart-arse lawyer trying to wriggle him out of responsibility for his action. Might a really good bloke not have just held his hands up, admitted his mistake and taken his medicine instead?

[Mellsblue]

https://resources.worldrugby-rims.pulse ... -final.pdf

[morepork]

Anyone that enjoys as much inappropriately qualified immunity as he has for so long can't help but be a bit of a twat generally. Like king Charles whining about his pens. The RFU have created a monster. Will they build him a wife or does he just get wanked off when he starts sounding agitated?

[Puja]

I don't remember anyone here saying it, but I have seen it elsewhere, that because OF's left arm might have been in a position to potentially wrap after the tackle, it wasn't a shoulder charge, and therefore mitigation does apply.

This video from WR disagrees with that, ironically using video footage of an OF special (though with the right shoulder softer than Basham received) to show that it's the contact arm that has to attempt the wrap

Although that video is out of date (4 years old), as it still allows mitigation for shoulder charges due to a drop in height, which is not longer in the protocol.

Puja

[Puja]

Its odd how a ban on an English player has united the various fractions of this board in a way I've not seen before. I do feel sorry for Farrell the man. Not his on field actions, but just as a bloke this must be incredibly stressful. He probably wishes he just had then ban and could get on with life.

This is an important point and one which I think we should all bear in mind. Farrell might not be who we want to have as our captain or on the pitch, and he's hardly blameless for the strife that he's found himself in, but he is also a player looking at (hopefully) his last RWC and having that yanked away from him two games beforehand because of an accident. Yes, he has history of consistently poor technique and dangerous play and said accident could very easily have ruled Basham out of the RWC, and it is important to take that into account, but I can't help but feel a little bit sorry for him as a person.

Puja

[Beasties]

He’s done this his entire professional career, and here he is in his final WC possibly. His assault on Charlie Atkinson (and several others) lives long in the memory. I have zero sympathy.

[SixAndAHalf]

As bizarre as this whole incident is, it has at least confirmed two things I have suspected:

1. The RFU's review of tackle height in the Community game is a cynical attempt to deflect attention from issues in the pro game
2. There is a financial incentive for the RFU to ensure Farrell is in the team at all costs

[Oakboy]

As bizarre as this whole incident is, it has at least confirmed two things I have suspected:

1. The RFU's review of tackle height in the Community game is a cynical attempt to deflect attention from issues in the pro game
2. There is a financial incentive for the RFU to ensure Farrell is in the team at all costs

I think you are right but the second point is interesting in PR terms. If the team was picked by fans voting, would Farrell be in it? 3 or 4 years ago, this forum might have been out of line with its collective opinion of Farrell but now? Even punditry is wavering.

[Danno]

He’s done this his entire professional career, and here he is in his final WC possibly. His assault on Charlie Atkinson (and several others) lives long in the memory. I have zero sympathy.

Same. He's had ample time (100 England caps and whatever Sarries appearances), near misses (Esterhuizen 2018 for one), cards(six reds now?), bans (just before this Six Nations which is why we saw a lot more Marcus Smith than we would have), reminders (see above), coaches(McSarriesFace, Lancaster, Gatland, Jones, Smee Bootywench plus all of their attendant coaching teams) a tackle school (where he must have been checking Rugby Reddit on his phone the whole time) and a spell in the wilderness when Sarries visited the Championship to correct his technique and his attitude when things aren't going well on the pitch, but he never, ever has.

He loses it and some poor bugger he's lined up is going to feel his red mist, which instantly vanishes once he connects.

I'm less bothered about him being a very average (at best) international now and much more concerned that:
1) Shined Bootwedge is still going to name him Captain and starting FH at the earliest opportunity, and then he manages to do it again (while stultifying the team in the process) at a critical point in a WC game. We got away with it in a cripple fight vs Wales - if you think the ABs, Springboks, France, Argentina, Ireland, Scotland, Japan, or even Chile would fail to punish a three man advantage far harder then they did then I have some magic beans, yours for only the price of a house deposit in London.

2) We end up looking like a team that's psychotically bound to this one player because... SCW and Stuart Barnes, and other commentators like Andy (spits) Goode and a number of coaches that weren't really up to the job like Lancaster, Gatland and Jones (barring Mark McCall, who presided over the uhh, cheating years) think he's Geech's classic "Test Match Animal". If they're talking about animals that are going for the throat I guess they are technically correct but, unfortunately, the law has changed and they're all dinosaurs staring at the meteor of head contact.

So no. No sympathy from me. He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy.*



*that can't even kick his goals anymore.

Oh, sorry about all the parentheses. I can't use footbotes as easily on a forum/phone. In an ideal world I'd have video link s and twitter hot takes and talking heads and tiktoks and all that jazz.

[Mikey Brown]

Even punditry is wavering.

Is it? I mean people are finally question his tackle technique, but it always seems to be a “because of course he is the perfect player in every other respect” sort of thing.

I can’t imagine Dallaglio or Healey ever giving up their fawning.

Andy Goode said the other day he’s been the best 10 in the world for the last couple of years and I’m desperately trying to think of a game that would have given him that impression.

I’ve given up trying to understand what it is people are seeing that I’m not.

[Banquo]

Its odd how a ban on an English player has united the various fractions of this board in a way I've not seen before. I do feel sorry for Farrell the man. Not his on field actions, but just as a bloke this must be incredibly stressful. He probably wishes he just had then ban and could get on with life.

This is an important point and one which I think we should all bear in mind. Farrell might not be who we want to have as our captain or on the pitch, and he's hardly blameless for the strife that he's found himself in, but he is also a player looking at (hopefully) his last RWC and having that yanked away from him two games beforehand because of an accident. Yes, he has history of consistently poor technique and dangerous play and said accident could very easily have ruled Basham out of the RWC, and it is important to take that into account, but I can't help but feel a little bit sorry for him as a person.

Puja

whaat?! he has been cut unbelievable slack in his career, and in this case he chose to fight the ban, having for the nth time performed the same dangerous tackle technique. All is a consequece of his own avoidable actions. His dad was faintly ludicrous earlier too.

[Danno]

Even punditry is wavering.

Is it? I mean people are finally question his tackle technique, but it always seems to be a “because of course he is the perfect player in every other respect” sort of thing.

I can’t imagine Dallaglio or Healey ever giving up their fawning.

Andy Goode said the other day he’s been the best 10 in the world for the last couple of years and I’m desperately trying to think of a game that would have given him that impression.

I’ve given up trying to understand what it is people are seeing that I’m not.

It started as soon as they all started looking for another Wilkinson, and because he tackled hard and kicked some goals between 2011 and 2014 they can't admit they were ever wrong.

[p/d]

Dad’s not happy

"The circus that's gone on in and around all of this is absolutely disgusting, in my opinion, disgusting," said the Ireland coach.

"I suppose those people that have loved their time in the sun get a few more days to keep going at that."

[Banquo]

He’s done this his entire professional career, and here he is in his final WC possibly. His assault on Charlie Atkinson (and several others) lives long in the memory. I have zero sympathy.

Same. He's had ample time (100 England caps and whatever Sarries appearances), near misses (Esterhuizen 2018 for one), cards(six reds now?), bans (just before this Six Nations which is why we saw a lot more Marcus Smith than we would have), reminders (see above), coaches(McSarriesFace, Lancaster, Gatland, Jones, Smee Bootywench plus all of their attendant coaching teams) a tackle school (where he must have been checking Rugby Reddit on his phone the whole time) and a spell in the wilderness when Sarries visited the Championship to correct his technique and his attitude when things aren't going well on the pitch, but he never, ever has.

He loses it and some poor bugger he's lined up is going to feel his red mist, which instantly vanishes once he connects.

I'm less bothered about him being a very average (at best) international now and much more concerned that:
1) Shined Bootwedge is still going to name him Captain and starting FH at the earliest opportunity, and then he manages to do it again (while stultifying the team in the process) at a critical point in a WC game. We got away with it in a cripple fight vs Wales - if you think the ABs, Springboks, France, Argentina, Ireland, Scotland, Japan, or even Chile would fail to punish a three man advantage far harder then they did then I have some magic beans, yours for only the price of a house deposit in London.

2) We end up looking like a team that's psychotically bound to this one player because... SCW and Stuart Barnes, and other commentators like Andy (spits) Goode and a number of coaches that weren't really up to the job like Lancaster, Gatland and Jones (barring Mark McCall, who presided over the uhh, cheating years) think he's Geech's classic "Test Match Animal". If they're talking about animals that are going for the throat I guess they are technically correct but, unfortunately, the law has changed and they're all dinosaurs staring at the meteor of head contact.

So no. No sympathy from me. He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy.*



*that can't even kick his goals anymore.

Oh, sorry about all the parentheses. I can't use footbotes as easily on a forum/phone. In an ideal world I'd have video link s and twitter hot takes and talking heads and tiktoks and all that jazz.

that is too good to be merely called a top rant- chapeau

[Danno]

I'd have taken a basic rant

[Lizard]

Dad’s not happy

"The circus that's gone on in and around all of this is absolutely disgusting, in my opinion, disgusting," said the Ireland coach.

"I suppose those people that have loved their time in the sun get a few more days to keep going at that."

It’s a shame Ireland’s QF curse means we won’t get to see Dad’s reaction when Owen smacks the head off Ringrose or somebody in semi final.

On the other hand, this means AF is free to prepare some ground for the defence of Bundee Aki should he get a bit niggly v SA.

[Oakboy]

Speaking on Thursday former Wales international Alix Popham backed World Rugby's decision to appeal the overturning of the red card.

"The punishment hasn't been severe enough for him," said Popham. "He always gets off lightly with the number of weeks or games he can't play for.

"He's a serial tackler with these type of offences. It's his game, he's a physical player. He hasn't learned his lesson."

Is this bit fact or perception? I'm not in the 'sympathy for poor Owen' camp but there has to be some concern about whether he can get a fair trial at this stage. Had the original panel banned him for 6 weeks would there have been any legitimate complaint? Now, the irony is that anything over a 3 week ban is going to seem reactionary and unfair.

My personal view is that the original panel have to be sacked to demonstrate incompetence. That's where the fault lies for this cock-up. Good luck to the new panel in putting things right.

[canta_brian]

That was done with intent. His first reaction after he did that is to square up to Biggar. He shouldn't be captain. If he was a kid at school, there would be professionals all over those sort of behavioural red flags. He has issues and is always angry.

I’m very late to this party but after reading all ten pages I just wanted to add:

This happened in a complete nothing of a match. It’s a warm up friendly ahead of matches that do actually count. Now I know all the marketing (especially here in the UK) likes to big up the “heat of battle” “gladiatorial” hype around the game, but that’s supposed to be for the fans. I thought the players understood the whole thing about it still being a sport.

Farrell seems such a complete bell end that he can’t separate emotion from action. That he gets picked as captain for England is beyond belief to me (don’t get me started on having backs as captains regardless). When I think of a great captain I see a player coming from a ruck for a word with the ref, asking a calm question, listening to the answer and then letting the team know what to change to avoid problems (or telling them to keep doing the same thing as the ref got it wrong but oil has been poured on rough seas).

All Farrell’s hyper-aggressive posturing tells me is that he lacks control. It’s petulant at best. The use of some “high powered” lawyer in a hearing only encourages that view for me.

https://www.glasgowcomascale.org/downlo ... sh.pdf?v=3

[Oakboy]

All Farrell’s hyper-aggressive posturing tells me is that he lacks control. It’s petulant at best. The use of some “high powered” lawyer in a hearing only encourages that view for me.

Good point, that. It rather negates Borthwick saying he is 'bemused'!

[Son of Mathonwy]

Speaking on Thursday former Wales international Alix Popham backed World Rugby's decision to appeal the overturning of the red card.

"The punishment hasn't been severe enough for him," said Popham. "He always gets off lightly with the number of weeks or games he can't play for.

"He's a serial tackler with these type of offences. It's his game, he's a physical player. He hasn't learned his lesson."

Is this bit fact or perception? I'm not in the 'sympathy for poor Owen' camp but there has to be some concern about whether he can get a fair trial at this stage. Had the original panel banned him for 6 weeks would there have been any legitimate complaint? Now, the irony is that anything over a 3 week ban is going to seem reactionary and unfair.

My personal view is that the original panel have to be sacked to demonstrate incompetence. That's where the fault lies for this cock-up. Good luck to the new panel in putting things right.

I think he can get a fair trial. As long as the officials are from a different country and they follow the normal procedures/precedent for punishing someone with such a record of offences. I think the biggest danger here is that they'll reinstate the red card but bottle the sanction so he only misses ~3 matches.

[Mr Mwenda]

The more I read the more I can only conclude is that pretty much anyone involved with the pro game - players, explayers, coaches, administrators, rugby journos - is thick as shit and loves making the game a cesspit. Concussion protocols came too late it seems.

[Stom]

That was done with intent. His first reaction after he did that is to square up to Biggar. He shouldn't be captain. If he was a kid at school, there would be professionals all over those sort of behavioural red flags. He has issues and is always angry.

I’m very late to this party but after reading all ten pages I just wanted to add:

This happened in a complete nothing of a match. It’s a warm up friendly ahead of matches that do actually count. Now I know all the marketing (especially here in the UK) likes to big up the “heat of battle” “gladiatorial” hype around the game, but that’s supposed to be for the fans. I thought the players understood the whole thing about it still being a sport.

Farrell seems such a complete bell end that he can’t separate emotion from action. That he gets picked as captain for England is beyond belief to me (don’t get me started on having backs as captains regardless). When I think of a great captain I see a player coming from a ruck for a word with the ref, asking a calm question, listening to the answer and then letting the team know what to change to avoid problems (or telling them to keep doing the same thing as the ref got it wrong but oil has been poured on rough seas).

All Farrell’s hyper-aggressive posturing tells me is that he lacks control. It’s petulant at best. The use of some “high powered” lawyer in a hearing only encourages that view for me.

https://www.glasgowcomascale.org/downlo ... sh.pdf?v=3

The thing about captaincy, though, is that when Robshaw was captain, for instance, many fans criticized him for lacking passion and not being Johnno. So we swing the other way and put Farrell in charge, someone who is allegedly all passion, and we get bigger problems.

English rugby seems to have this passion for learning from league. And it just totally negates what for me is a core part of rugby Union in England: it’s historically a posh lads game.

It’s all polite, have a drink together after. No chips on shoulders because why would there be?

Angry/dirty bastards were common, but they were very different. There was no petulance. Because they didn’t expect anything from the game they loved.

So yeah, I blame league.

[Puja]

I’m very late to this party but after reading all ten pages I just wanted to add:

This happened in a complete nothing of a match. It’s a warm up friendly ahead of matches that do actually count. Now I know all the marketing (especially here in the UK) likes to big up the “heat of battle” “gladiatorial” hype around the game, but that’s supposed to be for the fans. I thought the players understood the whole thing about it still being a sport.

Farrell seems such a complete bell end that he can’t separate emotion from action. That he gets picked as captain for England is beyond belief to me (don’t get me started on having backs as captains regardless). When I think of a great captain I see a player coming from a ruck for a word with the ref, asking a calm question, listening to the answer and then letting the team know what to change to avoid problems (or telling them to keep doing the same thing as the ref got it wrong but oil has been poured on rough seas).

All Farrell’s hyper-aggressive posturing tells me is that he lacks control. It’s petulant at best. The use of some “high powered” lawyer in a hearing only encourages that view for me.

https://www.glasgowcomascale.org/downlo ... sh.pdf?v=3

I think you're bang on there. England had suffered a massive reversal in the space of a couple of minutes - losing two players to yellows (the first a little arbitrarily as well*, which would've added to the frustration) and giving up 7 points to change from a decent lead into being behind. The team would've been frustrated, annoyed, despondant, nervous about the game slipping away - that is when you want the experienced big names to step in and calm things down, lead the youngsters, reinstill the belief that the game was still there for the winning.

Farrell, instead, lost control of himself and went for a big bosh shot to prove an individual point.

I don't believe Farrell targetted the head deliberately, but he threw himself in recklessly because he was angry and frustrated and couldn't manage his emotions properly and wanted to "dominate" someone. Because of that, he nearly lost us the game - I wouldn't've blamed us for falling apart entirely and it speaks well of the influence of Lawes, Itoje, and Ford that they managed to keep the team together.

I've genuinely no idea why people keep thinking he's captaincy material.

Puja


*I do actually support the yellow for Genge because the ref told them the next one who fucked around would get to find out and then turned out to be a man of his word. However, it would've been frustrating on the pitch, as refs usually forget they said that after one scrum has been completed successfully and it could just as easily have been a Welsh prop testing his patience.

[Banquo]

I’m very late to this party but after reading all ten pages I just wanted to add:

This happened in a complete nothing of a match. It’s a warm up friendly ahead of matches that do actually count. Now I know all the marketing (especially here in the UK) likes to big up the “heat of battle” “gladiatorial” hype around the game, but that’s supposed to be for the fans. I thought the players understood the whole thing about it still being a sport.

Farrell seems such a complete bell end that he can’t separate emotion from action. That he gets picked as captain for England is beyond belief to me (don’t get me started on having backs as captains regardless). When I think of a great captain I see a player coming from a ruck for a word with the ref, asking a calm question, listening to the answer and then letting the team know what to change to avoid problems (or telling them to keep doing the same thing as the ref got it wrong but oil has been poured on rough seas).

All Farrell’s hyper-aggressive posturing tells me is that he lacks control. It’s petulant at best. The use of some “high powered” lawyer in a hearing only encourages that view for me.

https://www.glasgowcomascale.org/downlo ... sh.pdf?v=3

I've genuinely no idea why people keep thinking he's captaincy material.

Puja

.

Poor him...imagine how he's feeling now you've said that!

[FKAS]

All Farrell’s hyper-aggressive posturing tells me is that he lacks control. It’s petulant at best. The use of some “high powered” lawyer in a hearing only encourages that view for me.

Good point, that. It rather negates Borthwick saying he is 'bemused'!

Unlikely to say, "Well we got away with one first time round. Fair cop, we're expecting a ban this time."