canta_brian wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 10:25 am
All Farrell’s hyper-aggressive posturing tells me is that he lacks control. It’s petulant at best. The use of some “high powered” lawyer in a hearing only encourages that view for me.
Good point, that. It rather negates Borthwick saying he is 'bemused'!
Unlikely to say, "Well we got away with one first time round. Fair cop, we're expecting a ban this time."
He could just say he disagrees. He could express regret at his team preparations being messed about.
Saying he is bemused suggests an inability to understand and indicates surprise. I find that odd in a bloke so experienced in the game. It makes him sound either thick or dishonest (and I don't think he is either).
Good point, that. It rather negates Borthwick saying he is 'bemused'!
Unlikely to say, "Well we got away with one first time round. Fair cop, we're expecting a ban this time."
He could just say he disagrees. He could express regret at his team preparations being messed about.
Saying he is bemused suggests an inability to understand and indicates surprise. I find that odd in a bloke so experienced in the game. It makes him sound either thick or dishonest (and I don't think he is either).
No, I don't think Stupid Bastard is either of those things.
canta_brian wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 10:25 am
I’m very late to this party but after reading all ten pages I just wanted to add:
This happened in a complete nothing of a match. It’s a warm up friendly ahead of matches that do actually count. Now I know all the marketing (especially here in the UK) likes to big up the “heat of battle” “gladiatorial” hype around the game, but that’s supposed to be for the fans. I thought the players understood the whole thing about it still being a sport.
Farrell seems such a complete bell end that he can’t separate emotion from action. That he gets picked as captain for England is beyond belief to me (don’t get me started on having backs as captains regardless). When I think of a great captain I see a player coming from a ruck for a word with the ref, asking a calm question, listening to the answer and then letting the team know what to change to avoid problems (or telling them to keep doing the same thing as the ref got it wrong but oil has been poured on rough seas).
All Farrell’s hyper-aggressive posturing tells me is that he lacks control. It’s petulant at best. The use of some “high powered” lawyer in a hearing only encourages that view for me.
Oakboy wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 8:48 pm
I see the hearing is set for Tuesday. Farrell to attend by video link.
Seems bananas that they can't organise it any sooner given they probably already know the result.
Puja
Maybe it's a case of the people involved can't just drop everything and attend a hearing. I think I kinda think the public hanging has been horrible, in terms of vitriol to Farrell as a person.... one thing I will say is about journalists....I think puja pointed out the idea that there can be no reduction if the action is illegal. And the journalists didn't pick that up until well after that was mentioned in here.
I also get that he could have pleaded guilty, but someone advised him a silk employed by the rfu could get him off... and whilst he took that advice..
The not pleading guilty is the thing he did wrong... (as well as committing the stupid shoulder charge)
And the real blame for the mishandling lands on the ijc.... Farrell has been blamed for the outcome, when actually he didn't orchestrate that...
Oakboy wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 8:48 pm
I see the hearing is set for Tuesday. Farrell to attend by video link.
Seems bananas that they can't organise it any sooner given they probably already know the result.
Puja
Maybe it's a case of the people involved can't just drop everything and attend a hearing. I think I kinda think the public hanging has been horrible, in terms of vitriol to Farrell as a person.... one thing I will say is about journalists....I think puja pointed out the idea that there can be no reduction if the action is illegal. And the journalists didn't pick that up until well after that was mentioned in here.
I also get that he could have pleaded guilty, but someone advised him a silk employed by the rfu could get him off... and whilst he took that advice..
The not pleading guilty is the thing he did wrong... (as well as committing the stupid shoulder charge)
And the real blame for the mishandling lands on the ijc.... Farrell has been blamed for the outcome, when actually he didn't orchestrate that...
Maybe I'm filtering it out, but where has the vitriol towards Farrell been (seen a few vaguely amusing memes)- most of the criticism has been of the panel that I've seen.
I have never investigated the full intricacies of these panels' appointments and processes. If such cases hang on marginal mitigation issues and interpretation of the game's laws could there not be a case for a senior ex-referee being involved? After all, this case highlights reconsidering earlier decisions by match officials. If a solicitor can present a wriggle-out case on behalf of the player, who puts the referee's viewpoint? The 'always illegal' case appears to have been marginalised. Would it have been with a referee on the panel?
I think a player arriving with a top lawyer ought to trigger alarm bells. They failed to ring in this case.
Having looked at the images that supposedly show his left arm being there to wrap, do they not look like it swinging as he drives his shoulder in to anyone else?
Seems bananas that they can't organise it any sooner given they probably already know the result.
Puja
Maybe it's a case of the people involved can't just drop everything and attend a hearing. I think I kinda think the public hanging has been horrible, in terms of vitriol to Farrell as a person.... one thing I will say is about journalists....I think puja pointed out the idea that there can be no reduction if the action is illegal. And the journalists didn't pick that up until well after that was mentioned in here.
I also get that he could have pleaded guilty, but someone advised him a silk employed by the rfu could get him off... and whilst he took that advice..
The not pleading guilty is the thing he did wrong... (as well as committing the stupid shoulder charge)
And the real blame for the mishandling lands on the ijc.... Farrell has been blamed for the outcome, when actually he didn't orchestrate that...
Maybe I'm filtering it out, but where has the vitriol towards Farrell been (seen a few vaguely amusing memes)- most of the criticism has been of the panel that I've seen.
Farrell does bring out extremes. Nigel Owens fears for the game if this remains downgraded from red. Richie M'ounga bemoans the inconsistency relative to the Tongan red. Courtney Lawes suggests Farrell is our all-time best FH.
IMO, Farrell is a very good club FH and a mediocre international one. He is a poor international IC. I don't like the way he behaves on the pitch, especially as captain. All the players and coaches rave about his influence.
I wonder how he will be judged by historians looking back once he has retired.
Maybe it's a case of the people involved can't just drop everything and attend a hearing. I think I kinda think the public hanging has been horrible, in terms of vitriol to Farrell as a person.... one thing I will say is about journalists....I think puja pointed out the idea that there can be no reduction if the action is illegal. And the journalists didn't pick that up until well after that was mentioned in here.
I also get that he could have pleaded guilty, but someone advised him a silk employed by the rfu could get him off... and whilst he took that advice..
The not pleading guilty is the thing he did wrong... (as well as committing the stupid shoulder charge)
And the real blame for the mishandling lands on the ijc.... Farrell has been blamed for the outcome, when actually he didn't orchestrate that...
Maybe I'm filtering it out, but where has the vitriol towards Farrell been (seen a few vaguely amusing memes)- most of the criticism has been of the panel that I've seen.
Farrell does bring out extremes. Nigel Owens fears for the game if this remains downgraded from red. Richie M'ounga bemoans the inconsistency relative to the Tongan red. Courtney Lawes suggests Farrell is our all-time best FH.
IMO, Farrell is a very good club FH and a mediocre international one. He is a poor international IC. I don't like the way he behaves on the pitch, especially as captain. All the players and coaches rave about his influence.
I wonder how he will be judged by historians looking back once he has retired.
They will continue to praise his holy name. (At least, in the English press.)
Maybe I'm filtering it out, but where has the vitriol towards Farrell been (seen a few vaguely amusing memes)- most of the criticism has been of the panel that I've seen.
Farrell does bring out extremes. Nigel Owens fears for the game if this remains downgraded from red. Richie M'ounga bemoans the inconsistency relative to the Tongan red. Courtney Lawes suggests Farrell is our all-time best FH.
IMO, Farrell is a very good club FH and a mediocre international one. He is a poor international IC. I don't like the way he behaves on the pitch, especially as captain. All the players and coaches rave about his influence.
I wonder how he will be judged by historians looking back once he has retired.
They will continue to praise his holy name. (At least, in the English press.)
Probably but maybe not if his retirement coincides with an upturn. A new FH, a more adventurous style a run of wins and suddenly 'it was Farrell that was holding us back'. The press are fickle.
Banquo wrote: ↑Sat Aug 19, 2023 8:21 amMaybe I'm filtering it out, but where has the vitriol towards Farrell been (seen a few vaguely amusing memes)- most of the criticism has been of the panel that I've seen.
I suspect that it depends on where you look.
You're a regular on at least one forum dedicated to rugby, where every contributor is dedicated and reasonably knowledgeable (yes, even those who have the temerity to disagree with me about things).
Hit twitter, or the comments section of a newspaper article, and I dread to think what's being said.
Banquo wrote: ↑Sat Aug 19, 2023 8:21 amMaybe I'm filtering it out, but where has the vitriol towards Farrell been (seen a few vaguely amusing memes)- most of the criticism has been of the panel that I've seen.
I suspect that it depends on where you look.
You're a regular on at least one forum dedicated to rugby, where every contributor is dedicated and reasonably knowledgeable (yes, even those who have the temerity to disagree with me about things).
Hit twitter, or the comments section of a newspaper article, and I dread to think what's being said.
Even here there are odd little animosities that seem to emerge around Farrell - someone made a comment that suggested the fact that he had a high powered lawyer was a mark against him personally. I don't get that at all. I think there have been bigger pricks on the pitch before as well - some of whom received less danction. I think that his continued undroppability for 10+ years just confuses us so much. I will be really interested in the inside line about him once he retires - must be his last world cup, right?
I agree about this being a good forum generally. I am really angry that England's shitness and this boneheaded disciplinary circus has really killed my enthusiasm for the world cup.
Mr Mwenda wrote: ↑Sat Aug 19, 2023 9:50 am
I am really angry that England's shitness and this boneheaded disciplinary circus has really killed my enthusiasm for the world cup.
That is the PR disaster that the authorities will fear should many share your view. I wonder if the next panel has been told to consider it.
Banquo wrote: ↑Sat Aug 19, 2023 8:21 amMaybe I'm filtering it out, but where has the vitriol towards Farrell been (seen a few vaguely amusing memes)- most of the criticism has been of the panel that I've seen.
I suspect that it depends on where you look.
You're a regular on at least one forum dedicated to rugby, where every contributor is dedicated and reasonably knowledgeable (yes, even those who have the temerity to disagree with me about things).
Hit twitter, or the comments section of a newspaper article, and I dread to think what's being said.
had a quick peak on the artist formerly known as twitter, and the first 20 hits or so were all about how stupid the panel were to overturn the red card. But fair enough.
Mr Mwenda wrote: ↑Sat Aug 19, 2023 9:50 am
I am really angry that England's shitness and this boneheaded disciplinary circus has really killed my enthusiasm for the world cup.
That is the PR disaster that the authorities will fear should many share your view. I wonder if the next panel has been told to consider it.
Not sure about that, but its certainly united rugby fans oddly.
Farrell does bring out extremes. Nigel Owens fears for the game if this remains downgraded from red. Richie M'ounga bemoans the inconsistency relative to the Tongan red. Courtney Lawes suggests Farrell is our all-time best FH.
IMO, Farrell is a very good club FH and a mediocre international one. He is a poor international IC. I don't like the way he behaves on the pitch, especially as captain. All the players and coaches rave about his influence.
I wonder how he will be judged by historians looking back once he has retired.
They will continue to praise his holy name. (At least, in the English press.)
Probably but maybe not if his retirement coincides with an upturn. A new FH, a more adventurous style a run of wins and suddenly 'it was Farrell that was holding us back'. The press are fickle.
He might quickly vanish if a new star arises, particularly if the new star is genuinely world class (as opposed to whatever Farrell is), but I doubt if they'll revise their opinion of him. They've spent too long treating him as the second coming of Jonny Wilkinson for that.
Banquo wrote: ↑Sat Aug 19, 2023 8:21 amMaybe I'm filtering it out, but where has the vitriol towards Farrell been (seen a few vaguely amusing memes)- most of the criticism has been of the panel that I've seen.
I suspect that it depends on where you look.
You're a regular on at least one forum dedicated to rugby, where every contributor is dedicated and reasonably knowledgeable (yes, even those who have the temerity to disagree with me about things).
Hit twitter, or the comments section of a newspaper article, and I dread to think what's being said.
Even here there are odd little animosities that seem to emerge around Farrell - someone made a comment that suggested the fact that he had a high powered lawyer was a mark against him personally. I don't get that at all. I think there have been bigger pricks on the pitch before as well - some of whom received less danction. I think that his continued undroppability for 10+ years just confuses us so much. I will be really interested in the inside line about him once he retires - must be his last world cup, right?
I agree about this being a good forum generally. I am really angry that England's shitness and this boneheaded disciplinary circus has really killed my enthusiasm for the world cup.
The high powered lawyer comment was mine. No particular animosity to Farrell, but looking to overturn the decisions of the on field bunker team isn’t really in the spirit of the sport. The whole point of the bunker is to allow the officials more time and space to make a good decision. I have not as yet seen anyone in this board suggest that the red card and a ban was not the correct call.
Good point, that. It rather negates Borthwick saying he is 'bemused'!
Unlikely to say, "Well we got away with one first time round. Fair cop, we're expecting a ban this time."
He could just say he disagrees. He could express regret at his team preparations being messed about.
Saying he is bemused suggests an inability to understand and indicates surprise. I find that odd in a bloke so experienced in the game. It makes him sound either thick or dishonest (and I don't think he is either).
Just read the interview and the context quote is that he's bemused that it's being relitigated, considering they had thought it was over and done with. Which isn't unfair.
I actually don't mind England doing a "circling the wagons" and "we're hard done by" on this. I don't agree that we're in the least hard done by if Fazlet gets a ban, but if Sturdy Basement can use it as motivation and to fire everyone up, then more power to him.
