England vs Fiji - Sat 3.15pm

[Puja]

I know we've all lost the collective will to live with the England rugby team at the moment, but there's an interesting conundrum with the selection for this game. Does Stalwart Barrister pick the first XXIII with the hope of them gelling with gametime and getting a morale-boosting good result? A possible strategy, especially since there's going to need to be reshuffling of plans with no Fazlet or BillyV for Argentina.

However, the downside of doing so is that leaves a chunk of the squad undercooked before the RWC. Rodd, Walker, and Mitchell won't have played a single minute and there's a good few others who won't exactly have had much time to knock the rust off. However, picking a heavily rotated team leaves the very real threat of underestimating a very strong Fiji team and suffering an embarrassing upset.

Thoughts?

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

I’d go for something like this. Very easy to say because I don’t really give a shit at this point and my job isn’t on the line. There’s little cohesion to be lost.

1. Rodd
2. Walker
3. Sinkler
4. Itoje
5. Chessum
6. Willis
7. Earl (Curry if fit)
8. Ludlam

9. Mitchell
10. Ford
11. Daly
12. Lawrence
13. Marchant
14. Watson
15. Malins/Arundell

Front row has been shite (except for George who can’t just play every minute of every game) anyway. Those guys need some minutes. Walker can get some time with what is presumably our first choice lock combo.

A bunch of 7s in the backrow but at least we might not get minced at the breakdown. See if Ludlam really looks a test 8 and he at least has some familiarity with Mitchell.

Equally we need to see if Mitchell can concentrate for 50 odd minutes, as the other two are way past it. Hopefully a first choice backline outside of a more mobile, energetic pack/9 might be able to get something going?

[Oakboy]

Picking that trio for the back row appeals, though I'd have 6. Ludlam, 7. Willis, 8. Earl.

I think Smith has to start simply to match Fiji's pace.

[Danno]

I’d go for something like this. Very easy to say because I don’t really give a shit at this point and my job isn’t on the line. There’s little cohesion to be lost.

1. Rodd
2. Walker
3. Sinkler
4. Itoje
5. Chessum
6. Willis
7. Earl (Curry if fit)
8. Ludlam

9. Mitchell
10. Ford
11. Daly
12. Lawrence
13. Marchant
14. Watson
15. Malins/Arundell

Front row has been shite (except for George who can’t just play every minute of every game) anyway. Those guys need some minutes. Walker can get some time with what is presumably our first choice lock combo.

A bunch of 7s in the backrow but at least we might not get minced at the breakdown. See if Ludlam really looks a test 8 and he at least has some familiarity with Mitchell.

Equally we need to see if Mitchell can concentrate for 50 odd minutes, as the other two are way past it. Hopefully a first choice backline outside of a more mobile, energetic pack/9 might be able to get something going?

9 to 15 sparks joy, but the Fijians might run them over a bit. Botia running between Ford and Marchant with Radrada outside him is giving me anxiety (I am absolutely not suggesting that any other backline we could put out would not suffer the same fate, more that our forwards, in any guise, would basically let it happen these days)

Having said that, if that loose 5 (with Curry not the football hooligan) can't tackle all day then something is deeply, deeply wronger than I thought, and Sinfield needs to be Binfield.

[FKAS]

Did Rodd play off the bench against Wales?

I'd start Mitchell and Walker if they are fit. We need to find a scrum half in some sort of form and wrap George in cotton wool.

Maybe trial the Manu/Lawrence midfield and give Steward a weekend off.

[jngf]

Would pick Lawes rather than Itoje at 4 for this test

[Puja]

Did Rodd play off the bench against Wales?

I'd start Mitchell and Walker if they are fit. We need to find a scrum half in some sort of form and wrap George in cotton wool.

Maybe trial the Manu/Lawrence midfield and give Steward a weekend off.

You know what, I think he might have. Good catch, although I can't imagine he's had many minutes.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

Would pick Lawes rather than Itoje at 4 for this test

I’m shocked.

[Danno]

Would pick Lawes rather than Itoje at 4 for this test

You are making me do something I really, really hate.

LAWES IS NOT A LOCK ANYMORE

He hasn't played there for over 3 years. And his highlights as a lock were coming to the fore at 6 for a couple of years, but he's a bit shunt, perhaps even over the hill now after his last couple of kinda underwhelming injury comebacks. He's a 6 now and we have better options when he hasn't been levelling people in the tackle, keeping our rucks clear or blasting the other side off the ball for a year. And he's not that great as a VC either

All of the above pains me a bit, he's been a huge and incredibly important player, but he's not only not a lock now, but he seems a bit off the international pace in general -which is huge for a flanker - unable to really lead it seems, and after so many head smacks with ever increasing layoffs I am a little worried about him continuing in a general sense (he deserves his WC spot but I think he's backup, not core, when we have Curry, Willis, Ludlam)

[Mikey Brown]

I’d go for something like this. Very easy to say because I don’t really give a shit at this point and my job isn’t on the line. There’s little cohesion to be lost.

1. Rodd
2. Walker
3. Sinkler
4. Itoje
5. Chessum
6. Willis
7. Earl (Curry if fit)
8. Ludlam

9. Mitchell
10. Ford
11. Daly
12. Lawrence
13. Marchant
14. Watson
15. Malins/Arundell

Front row has been shite (except for George who can’t just play every minute of every game) anyway. Those guys need some minutes. Walker can get some time with what is presumably our first choice lock combo.

A bunch of 7s in the backrow but at least we might not get minced at the breakdown. See if Ludlam really looks a test 8 and he at least has some familiarity with Mitchell.

Equally we need to see if Mitchell can concentrate for 50 odd minutes, as the other two are way past it. Hopefully a first choice backline outside of a more mobile, energetic pack/9 might be able to get something going?

9 to 15 sparks joy, but the Fijians might run them over a bit. Botia running between Ford and Marchant with Radrada outside him is giving me anxiety (I am absolutely not suggesting that any other backline we could put out would not suffer the same fate, more that our forwards, in any guise, would basically let it happen these days)

Having said that, if that loose 5 (with Curry not the football hooligan) can't tackle all day then something is deeply, deeply wronger than I thought, and Sinfield needs to be Binfield.

Well exactly. Which midfield in the world are going to be unconcerned about Radrada and co getting to run at them? I’d assume Lawrence would at least be somewhere in defence. Pick Tuilagi at 12 I guess if he’s still a better defender.

The Tuilagi/Lawrence pair might be fun, in a sense, but I can’t face the idea of it once the axis of evil returns at halfback.

Willis, Earl, Curry or Ludlam at 8, I don’t really care. I suppose Earl has looked the most comfortable there, I’ve just generally had Ludlam ahead of him in my mind for England. At least having a backrow who can all get around the pitch and challenge the breakdown a bit would be nice, even if they’re not specialist 8s.

[Danno]

I’d go for something like this. Very easy to say because I don’t really give a shit at this point and my job isn’t on the line. There’s little cohesion to be lost.

1. Rodd
2. Walker
3. Sinkler
4. Itoje
5. Chessum
6. Willis
7. Earl (Curry if fit)
8. Ludlam

9. Mitchell
10. Ford
11. Daly
12. Lawrence
13. Marchant
14. Watson
15. Malins/Arundell

Front row has been shite (except for George who can’t just play every minute of every game) anyway. Those guys need some minutes. Walker can get some time with what is presumably our first choice lock combo.

A bunch of 7s in the backrow but at least we might not get minced at the breakdown. See if Ludlam really looks a test 8 and he at least has some familiarity with Mitchell.

Equally we need to see if Mitchell can concentrate for 50 odd minutes, as the other two are way past it. Hopefully a first choice backline outside of a more mobile, energetic pack/9 might be able to get something going?

9 to 15 sparks joy, but the Fijians might run them over a bit. Botia running between Ford and Marchant with Radrada outside him is giving me anxiety (I am absolutely not suggesting that any other backline we could put out would not suffer the same fate, more that our forwards, in any guise, would basically let it happen these days)

Having said that, if that loose 5 (with Curry not the football hooligan) can't tackle all day then something is deeply, deeply wronger than I thought, and Sinfield needs to be Binfield.

Well exactly. Which midfield in the world are going to be unconcerned about Radrada and co getting to run at them? I’d assume Lawrence would at least be somewhere in defence. Pick Tuilagi at 12 I guess if he’s still a better defender.

The Tuilagi/Lawrence pair might be fun, in a sense, but I can’t face the idea of it once the axis of evil returns at halfback.

Willis, Earl, Curry or Ludlam at 8, I don’t really care. I suppose Earl has looked the most comfortable there, I’ve just generally had Ludlam ahead of him in my mind for England. At least having a backrow who can all get around the pitch and challenge the breakdown a bit would be nice, even if they’re not specialist 8s.

I think we agree overall? We need the pack to step the **** up so that we can play backs that don't feel pedestrian or just play like thwarted flankers.

Play Curry, Willis, Ludlam, with Itoje and Chessum and a decently drilled defence (insert hollow laughter here) and I don't see why we can't secure and disrupt ball. It's just nuts

[fivepointer]

Did Rodd play off the bench against Wales?

I'd start Mitchell and Walker if they are fit. We need to find a scrum half in some sort of form and wrap George in cotton wool.

Maybe trial the Manu/Lawrence midfield and give Steward a weekend off.

Agree with that.

Chessum, Watson and Willis to start. Ideally Curry to get some game time.

[Oakboy]

The DT is suggesting that SB has plans for Smith at FB. I don't understand why he'd piss about with that ahead of trying Malins there. Some players' presences in the 33 get odder by the day. Malins was an ever-present on the wing. Now he's nowhere near the 23 so why pick him at all? I'm not advocating his selection, just trying to understand SB's attitude to him. You could make similar comment on Ludlam.

[Beasties]

The DT is suggesting that SB has plans for Smith at FB. I don't understand why he'd piss about with that ahead of trying Malins there. Some players' presences in the 33 get odder by the day. Malins was an ever-present on the wing. Now he's nowhere near the 23 so why pick him at all? I'm not advocating his selection, just trying to understand SB's attitude to him. You could make similar comment on Ludlam.

Something seems to happen to coaches when they become int’l coaches. I think it’s boredom and they end up asking themselves what if questions. Why try Smith at FB when we have four players who have actually played FB plenty in their rugby careers? It’s just tiresome.

[Margin_Walker]

Weird isn't it.

That said, really hope Watson, Malins or Arundell are at FB at the weekend. We know what Steward can do there. Let's at least have a contingency option ready to go.

[Puja]

The DT is suggesting that SB has plans for Smith at FB. I don't understand why he'd piss about with that ahead of trying Malins there. Some players' presences in the 33 get odder by the day. Malins was an ever-present on the wing. Now he's nowhere near the 23 so why pick him at all? I'm not advocating his selection, just trying to understand SB's attitude to him. You could make similar comment on Ludlam.

Something seems to happen to coaches when they become int’l coaches. I think it’s boredom and they end up ask themselves what if questions. Why try Smith at FB when we have four players who have actually played FB plenty in their rugby careers? It’s just tiresome.

Cause if Smith is in the 22 shirt, then he becomes an unused substitute if Ford is playing well and we don't want to sub our fly half. He did look pretty good there last weekend, albeit in a lost cause.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

The DT is suggesting that SB has plans for Smith at FB. I don't understand why he'd piss about with that ahead of trying Malins there. Some players' presences in the 33 get odder by the day. Malins was an ever-present on the wing. Now he's nowhere near the 23 so why pick him at all? I'm not advocating his selection, just trying to understand SB's attitude to him. You could make similar comment on Ludlam.

Something seems to happen to coaches when they become int’l coaches. I think it’s boredom and they end up ask themselves what if questions. Why try Smith at FB when we have four players who have actually played FB plenty in their rugby careers? It’s just tiresome.

Cause if Smith is in the 22 shirt, then he becomes an unused substitute if Ford is playing well and we don't want to sub our fly half. He did look pretty good there last weekend, albeit in a lost cause.

Puja

Agreed.
Given how this England team plays, I like the idea of Smith at 15 assuming it’s a bit of a Hail Mary if we’re behind with 10/15 to go and we have Ford, not Farrell, at 10.
Tbh, I’ve seen enough of Borthball’s and Steward’s* limitations to have Malins at 15 vs Fiji with a view to him being the first choice 15.

*the oppo have worked him out: keep the high ball away from him and isolate him 1v1 with wingers in the wide channels.

[p/d]

The DT is suggesting that SB has plans for Smith at FB. I don't understand why he'd piss about with that ahead of trying Malins there. Some players' presences in the 33 get odder by the day. Malins was an ever-present on the wing. Now he's nowhere near the 23 so why pick him at all? I'm not advocating his selection, just trying to understand SB's attitude to him. You could make similar comment on Ludlam.

Steward at 12 is now but a few games away…

[Oakboy]

Weird isn't it.

That said, really hope Watson, Malins or Arundell are at FB at the weekend. We know what Steward can do there. Let's at least have a contingency option ready to go.

I don't disagree but you'd think that first match v Wales was the time to check out such options rather than picking players who were not going to make the 33. Had the 2nd and 3rd matches produced some flowing stuff and suggested the 1st choice 23 was inked in with confidence, then pressure would be off the Fiji game. Now though?

I keep coming back to our lack of cohesion, the disciplinary record, the large number of mistakes and our failure to score points once we are in the 22. Can SB afford NOT to pick HIS best available 23?

Even resting George could be a mistake IF his presence for 40 minutes, say, gets some useful gel-time into the other players lined up for the 1st choice front five.

Expecting things to suddenly click against Argentina could just lead to defeat.

[16th man]

We're in the classic "I wouldn't start from here" position.

There isn't a good choice available, and it's a matter of splitting hairs to try to decide which is least worst.

There's plenty of blame to go around, but the last person to drop a bollock to get us here was Smorgasbord Bullshit with some very disjointed selections in the games he's had to this point.

I'd be tempted to go first 15 everywhere except Rodd and Walker at 1 and 2, to get them some game time and recognise just how deeply we are in the crap now if anything happens to George. After 50 minutes, bring in everyone who hasn't had a run out yet, to the degree that is possible, regardless of the result. Could end up in some pretty funky positional situations, but can it be much worse than the wasted first warm up game in Cardiff?

[fivepointer]

Something seems to happen to coaches when they become int’l coaches. I think it’s boredom and they end up ask themselves what if questions. Why try Smith at FB when we have four players who have actually played FB plenty in their rugby careers? It’s just tiresome.

Cause if Smith is in the 22 shirt, then he becomes an unused substitute if Ford is playing well and we don't want to sub our fly half. He did look pretty good there last weekend, albeit in a lost cause.

Puja

Agreed.
Given how this England team plays, I like the idea of Smith at 15 assuming it’s a bit of a Hail Mary if we’re behind with 10/15 to go and we have Ford, not Farrell, at 10.
Tbh, I’ve seen enough of Borthball’s and Steward’s* limitations to have Malins at 15 vs Fiji with a view to him being the first choice 15.

*the oppo have worked him out: keep the high ball away from him and isolate him 1v1 with wingers in the wide channels.

Yeah I wouldnt start Smith at FB but he showed pretty well against Ireland and, in the later stages of a game, he could be very effective.
We know what we'll get from Steward, but really he isnt going to light the place up with his attacking game.
I'm all for trying something a bit different.

[p/d]

Something seems to happen to coaches when they become int’l coaches. I think it’s boredom and they end up ask themselves what if questions. Why try Smith at FB when we have four players who have actually played FB plenty in their rugby careers? It’s just tiresome.

Cause if Smith is in the 22 shirt, then he becomes an unused substitute if Ford is playing well and we don't want to sub our fly half. He did look pretty good there last weekend, albeit in a lost cause.

Puja

Agreed.
Given how this England team plays, I like the idea of Smith at 15 assuming it’s a bit of a Hail Mary if we’re behind with 10/15 to go and we have Ford, not Farrell, at 10.
Tbh, I’ve seen enough of Borthball’s and Steward’s* limitations to have Malins at 15 vs Fiji with a view to him being the first choice 15.

*the oppo have worked him out: keep the high ball away from him and isolate him 1v1 with wingers in the wide channels.

Perhaps Slade did have a role to play after all

[Skalyba]

The DT is suggesting that SB has plans for Smith at FB. I don't understand why he'd piss about with that ahead of trying Malins there. Some players' presences in the 33 get odder by the day. Malins was an ever-present on the wing. Now he's nowhere near the 23 so why pick him at all? I'm not advocating his selection, just trying to understand SB's attitude to him. You could make similar comment on Ludlam.

Malins has always been there as Daly-lite, while Daly was injured. They are the 'creative' wing that makes up for Stewards deficiencies in attack, not that we've sen much sign of it working. While I don't advocate for Smith at FB, at least he showed the right intent on his cameo there by attacking space rather than just hoofing it back

[Oakboy]

Cause if Smith is in the 22 shirt, then he becomes an unused substitute if Ford is playing well and we don't want to sub our fly half. He did look pretty good there last weekend, albeit in a lost cause.

Puja

Agreed.
Given how this England team plays, I like the idea of Smith at 15 assuming it’s a bit of a Hail Mary if we’re behind with 10/15 to go and we have Ford, not Farrell, at 10.
Tbh, I’ve seen enough of Borthball’s and Steward’s* limitations to have Malins at 15 vs Fiji with a view to him being the first choice 15.

*the oppo have worked him out: keep the high ball away from him and isolate him 1v1 with wingers in the wide channels.

Perhaps Slade did have a role to play after all

SB has yet to justify some of the selections that we criticised in the first place.

[Mellsblue]

Cause if Smith is in the 22 shirt, then he becomes an unused substitute if Ford is playing well and we don't want to sub our fly half. He did look pretty good there last weekend, albeit in a lost cause.

Puja

Agreed.
Given how this England team plays, I like the idea of Smith at 15 assuming it’s a bit of a Hail Mary if we’re behind with 10/15 to go and we have Ford, not Farrell, at 10.
Tbh, I’ve seen enough of Borthball’s and Steward’s* limitations to have Malins at 15 vs Fiji with a view to him being the first choice 15.

*the oppo have worked him out: keep the high ball away from him and isolate him 1v1 with wingers in the wide channels.

Perhaps Slade did have a role to play after all

Yep, I’d rather have Slade at FB than Smith, but I’d rather have Smith in the 22 shirt than Slade, and I’d want pace in the 23 shirt over Slade.