England vs Fiji - Sat 3.15pm

[Adam_P]

Freeman>Steward. Justice for Tommy.

[FKAS]

Freeman>Steward. Justice for Tommy.

Needs to leave Saints and play 15 regularly.

[p/d]

Agreed.
Given how this England team plays, I like the idea of Smith at 15 assuming it’s a bit of a Hail Mary if we’re behind with 10/15 to go and we have Ford, not Farrell, at 10.
Tbh, I’ve seen enough of Borthball’s and Steward’s* limitations to have Malins at 15 vs Fiji with a view to him being the first choice 15.

*the oppo have worked him out: keep the high ball away from him and isolate him 1v1 with wingers in the wide channels.

Perhaps Slade did have a role to play after all

Yep, I’d rather have Slade at FB than Smith, but I’d rather have Smith in the 22 shirt than Slade, and I’d want pace in the 23 shirt over Slade.

I think I follow. Your preference would be Rich Lane?

[Mellsblue]

Perhaps Slade did have a role to play after all

Yep, I’d rather have Slade at FB than Smith, but I’d rather have Smith in the 22 shirt than Slade, and I’d want pace in the 23 shirt over Slade.

I think I follow. Your preference would be Rich Lane?

That’s implied in any convo involving the back 3.

[twitchy]

lol





Without paywall: https://12ft.io/www.telegraph.co.uk/rug ... world-cup/

[Mellsblue]

Freeman>Steward. Justice for Tommy.

Needs to leave Saints and play 15 regularly.

Or win the 15 job. Tbh, from the little I see of Saints, he does spend quite a bit of time at 15 whilst Furbank weaves his magic at the gainline. Staying fit for an entire season is probably his best route to England caps.
If we’re all being honest, all 15 candidates are placeholding if Arundell reaches his potential. That said, if Stoic Backwardstep is still in charge I can see him being scared off picking him by the thought of him scoring tries.

[Puja]

Cause if Smith is in the 22 shirt, then he becomes an unused substitute if Ford is playing well and we don't want to sub our fly half. He did look pretty good there last weekend, albeit in a lost cause.

Puja

Agreed.
Given how this England team plays, I like the idea of Smith at 15 assuming it’s a bit of a Hail Mary if we’re behind with 10/15 to go and we have Ford, not Farrell, at 10.
Tbh, I’ve seen enough of Borthball’s and Steward’s* limitations to have Malins at 15 vs Fiji with a view to him being the first choice 15.

*the oppo have worked him out: keep the high ball away from him and isolate him 1v1 with wingers in the wide channels.

Perhaps Slade did have a role to play after all

I'd rather have Smith at full-back than Slade covering 10 in a fully fledged international. I'd bring back Furbank before I'd be keen on that.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

Agreed.
Given how this England team plays, I like the idea of Smith at 15 assuming it’s a bit of a Hail Mary if we’re behind with 10/15 to go and we have Ford, not Farrell, at 10.
Tbh, I’ve seen enough of Borthball’s and Steward’s* limitations to have Malins at 15 vs Fiji with a view to him being the first choice 15.

*the oppo have worked him out: keep the high ball away from him and isolate him 1v1 with wingers in the wide channels.

Perhaps Slade did have a role to play after all

I'd rather have Smith at full-back than Slade covering 10 in a fully fledged international. I'd bring back Furbank before I'd be keen on that.

Puja

Stop it, you tease.

[Puja]

lol

Just reading through this and I have to say that this doesn't look like a particularly legal tackle from BillyV early on:



Puja

[16th man]

lol

"which was no accident"?

Now, I'm currently fairly down on Shanked Boxkick, but there wasn't a moment where I'd even considered that they might decide to put Smith on and just randomly stab a number into the sub board.

[Oakboy]

Perhaps Slade did have a role to play after all

I'd rather have Smith at full-back than Slade covering 10 in a fully fledged international. I'd bring back Furbank before I'd be keen on that.

Puja

Stop it, you tease.

What is the case for Ford at 10 ahead of Smith based on what we have seen in the warm-ups? I think Smith 10, Ford 22 is what the opposition would least like to see.

[Banquo]

Freeman>Steward. Justice for Tommy.

Needs to leave Saints and play 15 regularly.

Or win the 15 job. Tbh, from the little I see of Saints, he does spend quite a bit of time at 15 whilst Furbank weaves his magic at the gainline. Staying fit for an entire season is probably his best route to England caps.
If we’re all being honest, all 15 candidates are placeholding if Arundell reaches his potential. That said, if Stoic Backwardstep is still in charge I can see him being scared off picking him by the thought of him scoring tries.

He was fit most of this season I think (19 games), and played well generally.

[Banquo]

Bit bemused by Smith for 15 convo; has he ever started there for anyone? Anyone seen him under a high ball, or positionally at 15 against a top team. How is his timing hitting the line from there?

[Puja]

I'd rather have Smith at full-back than Slade covering 10 in a fully fledged international. I'd bring back Furbank before I'd be keen on that.

Puja

Stop it, you tease.

What is the case for Ford at 10 ahead of Smith based on what we have seen in the warm-ups? I think Smith 10, Ford 22 is what the opposition would least like to see.

Ford has been at the centre of just about everything good in the backline for England so far - admittedly, there's not been much, but on the rare occasions when we've threatened, it's been either him doing it or him directing it. He's also got a vast amount of experience and game-management ability which is important in knock-out games and which I don't think Smith has yet.

As a secondary thing, Smith is a very useful player to have on the bench as a change-up. He might be more error-prone and less good at controlling a game than Ford, but he's also who we can turn to if we need a spark. Ford at 22 is just fly-half cover and a wasted subs space if the 10 has a good game/doesn't get injured.

Puja

[Gloskarlos]

lol

Just reading through this and I have to say that this doesn't look like a particularly legal tackle from BillyV early on:



Puja

Billy, Jamie and Maro all in with a chance of a yellow in that scenario. Far too close to head on head by all three.

[Puja]

Bit bemused by Smith for 15 convo; has he ever started there for anyone? Anyone seen him under a high ball, or positionally at 15 against a top team. How is his timing hitting the line from there?

He's good under a high ball for Quins - they often stand him back there. Positioning, I don't think we really know anything on that. Ideally, this is the sort of experiment that would be launched in the 2nd or 3rd year of a RWC cycle, rather than the 3rd game of the RWC warmups, but I'm intrigued to see if it works. There's been weirder positional shifts at international level (cf our historical inability to pick a regular 12 at 12).

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

Yeah this is just clutching at straws because we’re useless on the counter and Smith is incredible running the ball back when fielding kicks, but most other core fullback skills are a big question mark.

Certainly interesting though.

[Which Tyler]

Is Itoje exaggerated-clapping before the tackle has even completed?

[Oakboy]

Stop it, you tease.

What is the case for Ford at 10 ahead of Smith based on what we have seen in the warm-ups? I think Smith 10, Ford 22 is what the opposition would least like to see.

Ford has been at the centre of just about everything good in the backline for England so far - admittedly, there's not been much, but on the rare occasions when we've threatened, it's been either him doing it or him directing it. He's also got a vast amount of experience and game-management ability which is important in knock-out games and which I don't think Smith has yet.

As a secondary thing, Smith is a very useful player to have on the bench as a change-up. He might be more error-prone and less good at controlling a game than Ford, but he's also who we can turn to if we need a spark. Ford at 22 is just fly-half cover and a wasted subs space if the 10 has a good game/doesn't get injured.

Puja

Fair enough. I think that is a pessimistic approach: Ford, the safe, experienced option should be OK but if he's not bring on Smith to rescue it. Might the optimistic approach be to start with Smith, get a good lead and bring Ford on to manage the game through to victory? In the same cause, I'd start with Mitchell and have one of the veterans in the 21 shirt.

I accept that Ford has been tidy and central to the one or two half-decent attacking moves so far. And, the backs have scored 0 tries! Desperation is just around the corner.

[p/d]

Bit bemused by Smith for 15 convo; has he ever started there for anyone? Anyone seen him under a high ball, or positionally at 15 against a top team. How is his timing hitting the line from there?

Just go with the flow. Don't bog yourself down with the small details.

[p/d]

lol

Just reading through this and I have to say that this doesn't look like a particularly legal tackle from BillyV early on:



Puja

Billy, Jamie and Maro all in with a chance of a yellow in that scenario. Far too close to head on head by all three.

And Daly would have been if hadn't run sideways trying to get there to assist.

[Mellsblue]

What is the case for Ford at 10 ahead of Smith based on what we have seen in the warm-ups? I think Smith 10, Ford 22 is what the opposition would least like to see.

Ford has been at the centre of just about everything good in the backline for England so far - admittedly, there's not been much, but on the rare occasions when we've threatened, it's been either him doing it or him directing it. He's also got a vast amount of experience and game-management ability which is important in knock-out games and which I don't think Smith has yet.

As a secondary thing, Smith is a very useful player to have on the bench as a change-up. He might be more error-prone and less good at controlling a game than Ford, but he's also who we can turn to if we need a spark. Ford at 22 is just fly-half cover and a wasted subs space if the 10 has a good game/doesn't get injured.

Puja

Fair enough. I think that is a pessimistic approach: Ford, the safe, experienced option should be OK but if he's not bring on Smith to rescue it. Might the optimistic approach be to start with Smith, get a good lead and bring Ford on to manage the game through to victory? In the same cause, I'd start with Mitchell and have one of the veterans in the 21 shirt.

I accept that Ford has been tidy and central to the one or two half-decent attacking moves so far. And, the backs have scored 0 tries! Desperation is just around the corner.

I think you’re just confusing hitchkicks and line breaks with being the better attacking flyhalf - there’s more than one way to skin a cat - and ignoring Ford’s back catalogue in favour of a sample size of 100(?) mins.

[Mellsblue]

Needs to leave Saints and play 15 regularly.

Or win the 15 job. Tbh, from the little I see of Saints, he does spend quite a bit of time at 15 whilst Furbank weaves his magic at the gainline. Staying fit for an entire season is probably his best route to England caps.
If we’re all being honest, all 15 candidates are placeholding if Arundell reaches his potential. That said, if Stoic Backwardstep is still in charge I can see him being scared off picking him by the thought of him scoring tries.

He was fit most of this season I think (19 games), and played well generally.

Most vs entire

He has played very well and I rate him as our third best back three player behind Watson and Daly.

Also, stop being such a Saints fanboy. You must have all their signatures by now

[Mellsblue]

Just reading through this and I have to say that this doesn't look like a particularly legal tackle from BillyV early on:



Puja

Billy, Jamie and Maro all in with a chance of a yellow in that scenario. Far too close to head on head by all three.

And Daly would have been if hadn't run sideways trying to get there to assist.

Lawes also very upright and about as likely to make a tackle as George.

On a serious note, both Itoje and George have their socks pulled up so immediately receive a downgrade of 1 week on any ban.

[Banquo]

Bit bemused by Smith for 15 convo; has he ever started there for anyone? Anyone seen him under a high ball, or positionally at 15 against a top team. How is his timing hitting the line from there?

He's good under a high ball for Quins - they often stand him back there. Positioning, I don't think we really know anything on that. Ideally, this is the sort of experiment that would be launched in the 2nd or 3rd year of a RWC cycle, rather than the 3rd game of the RWC warmups, but I'm intrigued to see if it works. There's been weirder positional shifts at international level (cf our historical inability to pick a regular 12 at 12).

Puja

Very different from 1st phase though, and very different at club level. Again, has he actually ever started at 15 for anyone? Its the most specialised position of the outside backs....and learning at intl level as a starter....hmm