England vs Fiji - Sat 3.15pm

[Mellsblue]

I actually feel sorry for (most) England players this World Cup.

Imagine being a fan, at least the players are getting paid. I’ll be down four figures to watch dross by the end of the tournament. The only upside is I can drink myself silly before the matches so I won’t remember what happened.

[Insouciant]

They were pretty well drilled during this years Pacific Nations Cup. They can ruck, maul, counter, and launch from first phase. You are going to have to win by aiming to score tries against them, not rely on them making mistakes. The relative penalty counts at rucks will be interesting.

I actually feel sorry for (most) England players this World Cup. They've had the fun and skill squeezed out of them by a bafflingly limited coaching and selection methodology. They are now playing like haunted robots. I hope there is some leadership in the group that can pick them up a bit.

Sums it up well, that sentence.

Yeah that really got me. What a perfect description.

There are still a few human-like animations programmed in there but they never seem to appear at the right moments.

There's been a greater showing of that humanity when we've had red cards over the last couple of weekends. Maybe it's the backs to the wall feeling of being a man down, maybe it's the sense that the original game plan can be chucked out now, who knows? It could just be the game breaking up and Wales had a player sinbinned late on too. We scored our try v Wales with only 12 on the pitch right?

Ford coming on for Farrell v Wales or Smith coming on last week, gave us a bit more spark. I do think England looked a bit better against Ireland (mildly) than against Wales but that's much of a compliment.

[Banquo]

They were pretty well drilled during this years Pacific Nations Cup. They can ruck, maul, counter, and launch from first phase. You are going to have to win by aiming to score tries against them, not rely on them making mistakes. The relative penalty counts at rucks will be interesting.

I actually feel sorry for (most) England players this World Cup. They've had the fun and skill squeezed out of them by a bafflingly limited coaching and selection methodology. They are now playing like haunted robots. I hope there is some leadership in the group that can pick them up a bit.

Sums it up well, that sentence.

Yeah that really got me. What a perfect description.

There are still a few human-like animations programmed in there but they never seem to appear at the right moments.

Faz has been their role model at this for years.

[Mikey Brown]

Sums it up well, that sentence.

Yeah that really got me. What a perfect description.

There are still a few human-like animations programmed in there but they never seem to appear at the right moments.

There's been a greater showing of that humanity when we've had red cards over the last couple of weekends. Maybe it's the backs to the wall feeling of being a man down, maybe it's the sense that the original game plan can be chucked out now, who knows? It could just be the game breaking up and Wales had a player sinbinned late on too. We scored our try v Wales with only 12 on the pitch right?

Ford coming on for Farrell v Wales or Smith coming on last week, gave us a bit more spark. I do think England looked a bit better against Ireland (mildly) than against Wales but that's much of a compliment.

Yeah there’s definitely something to that. I’m sure I’ve said it a bunch of times but that game where Ewels got red carded was one of only a handful of England games (where they weren’t getting beaten by Scotland) that I’ve really enjoyed since the NZ semi.

[francoisfou]

The only upside is I can drink myself silly before the matches so I won’t remember what happened.

That’s one hell of an upside!

[Banquo]

Yeah that really got me. What a perfect description.

There are still a few human-like animations programmed in there but they never seem to appear at the right moments.

There's been a greater showing of that humanity when we've had red cards over the last couple of weekends. Maybe it's the backs to the wall feeling of being a man down, maybe it's the sense that the original game plan can be chucked out now, who knows? It could just be the game breaking up and Wales had a player sinbinned late on too. We scored our try v Wales with only 12 on the pitch right?

Ford coming on for Farrell v Wales or Smith coming on last week, gave us a bit more spark. I do think England looked a bit better against Ireland (mildly) than against Wales but that's much of a compliment.

Yeah there’s definitely something to that. I’m sure I’ve said it a bunch of times but that game where Ewels got red carded was one of only a handful of England games (where they weren’t getting beaten by Scotland) that I’ve really enjoyed since the NZ semi.

Yep, I've thought for ages that some of the (massive generalisation coming up) big issues with English rugby (and other team sports until the cricketers and Lionesses rocked up)...is that we've forgotten the human side...its a sport, it should be enjoyable to play, there should be an affinity to the shirt (I don't mean jingoistic)- you care about performing well for you, your team mates, and your fans (not some amorphous entertainment for all)- you give everything on the pitch, and you have a sense for beating who you play....and so on. A 250 page playbook is pretty fckin useless without motivation (or skills, but that's summat else).

[Mikey Brown]

Yeah. I often feel like that when we see all the promotional videos about them going kayaking and axe throwing to distract them from the horror of having to throw a ball around.

The problem is a lot of that sort of talk about fire and motivation on the field is why you end up with a 6.5/10 player like Farrell being treated like a god by every coach going.

[fivepointer]

Ominous portents around this England team right now. Injuries, suspensions, poor form, negligible progress with not the slightest hint of optimism in how the WC campaign is going to play out.

Borthwick may not have helped himself at times, but jeez he's got a job and a half trying to get us into anything like decent shape for the Argentina game.

Worrying.

[Banquo]

Yeah. I often feel like that when we see all the promotional videos about them going kayaking and axe throwing to distract them from the horror of having to throw a ball around.

The problem is a lot of that sort of talk about fire and motivation on the field is why you end up with a 6.5/10 player like Farrell being treated like a god by every coach going.

True- what you want is Farrells drive in a sentient and skilled human with good technique

[Oakboy]

It would just be so good to see some recogniseable progress game on game.

[morepork]

Yeah. I often feel like that when we see all the promotional videos about them going kayaking and axe throwing to distract them from the horror of having to throw a ball around.

The problem is a lot of that sort of talk about fire and motivation on the field is why you end up with a 6.5/10 player like Farrell being treated like a god by every coach going.

True- what you want is Farrells drive in a sentient and skilled human with good technique

...and the occasional smile...

[Banquo]

Yeah. I often feel like that when we see all the promotional videos about them going kayaking and axe throwing to distract them from the horror of having to throw a ball around.

The problem is a lot of that sort of talk about fire and motivation on the field is why you end up with a 6.5/10 player like Farrell being treated like a god by every coach going.

True- what you want is Farrells drive in a sentient and skilled human with good technique

...and the occasional smile...

I didn't want to push it

[Danno]

Yeah. I often feel like that when we see all the promotional videos about them going kayaking and axe throwing to distract them from the horror of having to throw a ball around.

The problem is a lot of that sort of talk about fire and motivation on the field is why you end up with a 6.5/10 player like Farrell being treated like a god by every coach going.

True- what you want is Farrells drive in a sentient and skilled human with good technique

...and the occasional smile...

What on earth are you talking about

[Mellsblue]

True- what you want is Farrells drive in a sentient and skilled human with good technique

...and the occasional smile...

What on earth are you talking about

This was the first thing that came to my mind, too.

The smirk that launched a thousand rugby hard-ons, inexplicably.

[Scrumhead]

Ominous portents around this England team right now. Injuries, suspensions, poor form, negligible progress with not the slightest hint of optimism in how the WC campaign is going to play out.

Borthwick may not have helped himself at times, but jeez he's got a job and a half trying to get us into anything like decent shape for the Argentina game.

Worrying.

Indeed. I don’t recall feeling this depressed going in to a RWC. Sure we’ve had times where my expectations were low, but this feels like an entirely different level of shite.

[Banquo]

Ominous portents around this England team right now. Injuries, suspensions, poor form, negligible progress with not the slightest hint of optimism in how the WC campaign is going to play out.

Borthwick may not have helped himself at times, but jeez he's got a job and a half trying to get us into anything like decent shape for the Argentina game.

Worrying.

Indeed. I don’t recall feeling this depressed going in to a RWC. Sure we’ve had times where my expectations were low, but this feels like an entirely different level of shite.

2007 felt grim going in. And two weeks in. Then we were robbed in the final

straw grasped.

(tbh we were a bit rubbish going into 2010 as well, and whilst the 6N before the 2015 RWC was ok, the prep going in was also shambolic. That's a depressing catalogue when written down )

[p/d]

On reflection I think we have turned the corner - by default - and look set to put in a charge for this WC. The second row will dominate and grow as a dominant force, Dan the man will heap the pressure on George and Earl - alongside Willis - will put in such a shift that even Mikey Brown will applaud his yelling and clapping!!

Behind that our page 7 fella will be getting the ball away quickly ensuring Ford is spoilt for choice. Lawrence to land motm

[TheDasher]

Ominous portents around this England team right now. Injuries, suspensions, poor form, negligible progress with not the slightest hint of optimism in how the WC campaign is going to play out.

Borthwick may not have helped himself at times, but jeez he's got a job and a half trying to get us into anything like decent shape for the Argentina game.

Worrying.

Indeed. I don’t recall feeling this depressed going in to a RWC. Sure we’ve had times where my expectations were low, but this feels like an entirely different level of shite.

2007 felt grim going in. And two weeks in. Then we were robbed in the final

straw grasped.

(tbh we were a bit rubbish going into 2010 as well, and whilst the 6N before the 2015 RWC was ok, the prep going in was also shambolic. That's a depressing catalogue when written down )

2007 turned into a classic, tough at the time as you say, but as I've said recently, it was a classic England side in some ways. A wonderful pack :
2015 was a depressing time, never felt right. Playing Burgess an absolute born back row in the centres etc.

I think if we were to beat Argentina, this could be a 2007 scenario just maybe (most likely not). The ONE thing that I noticed against Ireland was that we weren't beaten in the collisions, I thought there were long periods of the game in which we were hitting harder than them and frankly in the second half after the red card, carrying pretty potently. Problem was, we couldn't keep up with those carries, couldn't maintain momentum and then made mistakes or poor decisions.

There's a possibility that after another 3-4 games and with Ford heavily involved, we start to gel a little more and my point above is that for the first time in many, many games, we actually looked physically quite strong last weekend, which COULD be the start of something. Amazing how a team can suddenly start to improve over a few games if things go there way.

All highly unlikely as overall we're shite. But I sensed something 1% more positive happening against Ireland.

Painful that we have no Tom Willis, Jonny May shouldn't be there, etc.

[Oakboy]

Ominous portents around this England team right now. Injuries, suspensions, poor form, negligible progress with not the slightest hint of optimism in how the WC campaign is going to play out.

Borthwick may not have helped himself at times, but jeez he's got a job and a half trying to get us into anything like decent shape for the Argentina game.

Worrying.

Indeed. I don’t recall feeling this depressed going in to a RWC. Sure we’ve had times where my expectations were low, but this feels like an entirely different level of shite.

2007 felt grim going in. And two weeks in. Then we were robbed in the final

straw grasped.

(tbh we were a bit rubbish going into 2010 as well, and whilst the 6N before the 2015 RWC was ok, the prep going in was also shambolic. That's a depressing catalogue when written down )

Agreed. We may not have a group of players capable of winning the thing but surely the RFU can organise coaching/admin bodies such that we are prepared to the best of collective ability. I keep harping about 'best possible' but it should be a given.

[Oakboy]

Indeed. I don’t recall feeling this depressed going in to a RWC. Sure we’ve had times where my expectations were low, but this feels like an entirely different level of shite.

2007 felt grim going in. And two weeks in. Then we were robbed in the final

straw grasped.

(tbh we were a bit rubbish going into 2010 as well, and whilst the 6N before the 2015 RWC was ok, the prep going in was also shambolic. That's a depressing catalogue when written down )

2007 turned into a classic, tough at the time as you say, but as I've said recently, it was a classic England side in some ways. A wonderful pack :
2015 was a depressing time, never felt right. Playing Burgess an absolute born back row in the centres etc.

I think if we were to beat Argentina, this could be a 2007 scenario just maybe (most likely not). The ONE thing that I noticed against Ireland was that we weren't beaten in the collisions, I thought there were long periods of the game in which we were hitting harder than them and frankly in the second half after the red card, carrying pretty potently. Problem was, we couldn't keep up with those carries, couldn't maintain momentum and then made mistakes or poor decisions.

There's a possibility that after another 3-4 games and with Ford heavily involved, we start to gel a little more and my point above is that for the first time in many, many games, we actually looked physically quite strong last weekend, which COULD be the start of something. Amazing how a team can suddenly start to improve over a few games if things go there way.

All highly unlikely as overall we're shite. But I sensed something 1% more positive happening against Ireland.

Painful that we have no Tom Willis, Jonny May shouldn't be there, etc.

Well said, Dash. At least you've identified a smidgeon of improvement. I wonder if enforced absences through injury/suspension might lead to better selections accidentally. In football, it happened under Bobby Robson. Brian Robson was injured. Wilkins was suspended. Reid and Hoddle had to be picked - to good effect.

[Banquo]

Indeed. I don’t recall feeling this depressed going in to a RWC. Sure we’ve had times where my expectations were low, but this feels like an entirely different level of shite.

2007 felt grim going in. And two weeks in. Then we were robbed in the final

straw grasped.

(tbh we were a bit rubbish going into 2010 as well, and whilst the 6N before the 2015 RWC was ok, the prep going in was also shambolic. That's a depressing catalogue when written down )

Agreed. We may not have a group of players capable of winning the thing but surely the RFU can organise coaching/admin bodies such that we are prepared to the best of collective ability. I keep harping about 'best possible' but it should be a given.

We are agreed on best possible - it should be a given tbh

[Skalyba]

I've lost all faith - it was shaky before but picking May and Coke just shows how poor SB is. We can't buy a try in our backs and rather than go for fresh, in form, talent he brings in 35 year old May.

He has wasted an absolute golden opportunity with this world cup to build a new team - it doesn't matter if the new players aren't better than the old, they just (hopefully bring a better attitude). He should have binned Marler, Cole, Sinckler, Lawes, Vunipola, Youngs, Care, Ford or Farrell, Tuilagi, May, Daly, Watson. I've probably missed a couple but are those players really so much better than VRR, Willis, Mercer, Pearson, Mitchell, Murley, Freeman, Roebuck etc that it's worth keeping them on?

[fivepointer]

Kyle Sinckler is the latest injury headache for the England head coach, Steve Borthwick, the Guardian understands, as his side’s preparations for the Rugby World Cup continue to be hit by turmoil.

It is understood Sinckler has a chest concern that has ruled him out of Saturday’s match with Fiji. England are said to be optimistic over his chances of being ready for the start of the World Cup campaign but he joins Elliot Daly (knee) and Tom Curry (ankle) as players who will need to prove their fitness before the opening match against Argentina on 9 September.

Joe Heyes, the Leicester tighthead prop who was not included in the 33-man World Cup squad, was spotted at training on Friday, in a demonstration of the precautions being taken with Sinckler. Joe Cokanasiga was also seen at Twickenham as doubts persist over Daly.

On Thursday Borthwick confirmed that Anthony Watson had joined Jack van Poortvliet in withdrawing from the squad through injury while there are also doubts over Henry Arundell (back) and George Martin (knee).

[Mikey Brown]

It’s really crazy thinking about Cokanisiga’s last performance and him being in there ahead of Murley and Freeman. I’m really curious just terrible those two were in training because “time in camp” seems to still trump any sort of on-field measure.

[Puja]

I've lost all faith - it was shaky before but picking May and Coke just shows how poor SB is. We can't buy a try in our backs and rather than go for fresh, in form, talent he brings in 35 year old May.

He has wasted an absolute golden opportunity with this world cup to build a new team - it doesn't matter if the new players aren't better than the old, they just (hopefully bring a better attitude). He should have binned Marler, Cole, Sinckler, Lawes, Vunipola, Youngs, Care, Ford or Farrell, Tuilagi, May, Daly, Watson. I've probably missed a couple but are those players really so much better than VRR, Willis, Mercer, Pearson, Mitchell, Murley, Freeman, Roebuck etc that it's worth keeping them on?

I don't get the disdain for May - he's our second top try-scorer ever, he's elusive, he's still very quick, he's improved continually over his career and is probably one of our most secure players under a high ball, and one of our best positionally. He's also only 33, so neither "35 year old" nor utterly decrepit.

I also note you've suggested binning Cole and Sinckler without any suggestions of the young players to bring in.

Puja