England vs Fiji - Sat 3.15pm

[Mellsblue]

So, you’re qualified enough to definitively state the Sliding Backwards needs to go but not qualified enough to state what the replacement looks like…

Results don't lie. Neither does a half-empty Twickenham.

You’ve missed the point but I’ve ‘known’ you long enough to know you’ve done it on purpose to stop us repeating many previous exchanges

[fivepointer]

Per Dawson on BBC website:

"This is the most prepared underperforming England side there has ever been going into a World Cup.

We can't neglect the fact there are plenty of resources, lots of coaches and loads of training time. I don't believe there can be an excuse.

It does not take eight months to coach a side to deliver that kind of performance against Fiji. It was like it was Steve Borthwick's first game in charge and the players weren't sure how to play together.

They are significantly underperforming for how long they have been together."

He's right.

Borthwick has handled the team very poorly and not made the best use of time and resources.

But we're stuck with him for the WC. Best case scenario is that we find our feet in France, play some semi decent rugby, get through the pool stage and contest a QF in better shape than we are currently in. It might come together.....it might.

After that, well who knows. Doubt the RFU would be keen to jettison their preferred coach in under a year and there is a case for seeing how the next 6N's pan out before making a definitive judgement.

[Oakboy]

Per Dawson on BBC website:

"This is the most prepared underperforming England side there has ever been going into a World Cup.

We can't neglect the fact there are plenty of resources, lots of coaches and loads of training time. I don't believe there can be an excuse.

It does not take eight months to coach a side to deliver that kind of performance against Fiji. It was like it was Steve Borthwick's first game in charge and the players weren't sure how to play together.

They are significantly underperforming for how long they have been together."

He's right.

Borthwick has handled the team very poorly and not made the best use of time and resources.

But we're stuck with him for the WC. Best case scenario is that we find our feet in France, play some semi decent rugby, get through the pool stage and contest a QF in better shape than we are currently in. It might come together.....it might.

After that, well who knows. Doubt the RFU would be keen to jettison their preferred coach in under a year and there is a case for seeing how the next 6N's pan out before making a definitive judgement.

There is a case but it's repeating what has happened a fair few times since 2003, so far with zero success.

[monkey]

Agreed. I liked what SB said originally about clarity of purpose. It seemed correct intimation about what was wrong under Jones. Unfortunately, SB has proven incapable of putting his own words into action. It is not a question of whether he should go, just a question of when.

The biggest irony about yesterday's defeat is that Fiji's head coach was appointed after SB.

Sack the head coach again! I think he needs time to get his coaching team together - Wigglesworth is approx third choice, the scrum coach is at least second choice and the legend that is Aled Walters will only just be finding his feet. All his coaches are very inexperienced.
If we do sack him we go back to the question posed when you wanted Jones gone: who do you appoint in his place?

You may be right.

Unfortunately, I think SB has indicated lack of judgement and an inability to inspire the group (coaches plus players). The former failing I base on selection to an extent, especially with getting it wrong over Dombrandt/Billy V. We can have our pet theories on player A v player B but a head coach has all the information, advice and personal contact such that judgment calls should be right more often than not.

As for inspiring the group, he has failed in so fundamental an issue as following his own message on clarity. Falling back on the familiar i.e. coaching assistance from Leicester etc. maybe a sign of weakness. Either way, it has failed.

Yes, we would again be asking who? But, I think it is time for the main board of the RFU to do a root and branch overhaul with, say, a 6 month review of everything involved. A decision immediately after the RWC to give SB that temporary reprieve or to appoint another temporary guy needs more in-depth knowledge than can possibly be available to us.

What is essential, though, IMO, is to have a new system in place three and a half years ahead of the next RWC. The very worst scenario is letting SB blunder on, get nowhere for a couple of 6Ns and then replace him. A 6 month temporary stint while a review takes place, gives him a chance but signs of fundamental improvement would be essential to even leave his name on the table. I've said before over several eras that if I was carrying out appointment interviews, I'd require full long-term plans as detailed submissions from candidates. I'd be happy for SB to be part of that process if he had achieved improvement in the meantime.

I know we are not blessed with stacks of gifted players but I think if Sean Edwards was appointed tomorrow, we'd be a damned sight harder to beat within a couple of training sessions. Pie in the sky, of course, but it highlights how bad preparation/togetherness seems to be at present.

Just picking up on two points.

On the first point, I just don't think the issue is the players being unclear about what they're meant to be doing. The problem is what they're being instructed to do, imo.

On your second point, I completely agree. You guys (and the players) are paying a heavy price for appointing a poor coaching team with virtually no experience at this level.

[p/d]

SB does t need to go - it is not like obvious candidates are knocking down the door. I would start by sending Wigglesworth as far away as possible from the squad (now) and instruct Ford to take charge of attack.

I would have Steward line up at 12 for all training from now on and get Arundel, Smith, Daly, Malins and Marchant working on all back 3 combinations

Pray Curry is fit and give Ludlam the 8 berth

[16th man]

Borthwick isn't the first coach we've had where the team actually looks worse as time in camp goes on, but he's certainly the first to get to that point so early in the England Coach Cycle of Doom process.

He was initially hampered by coming in in the middle of an EPS agreement, so could only make a few tweaks to his squad, but, criminally, once he did have the chance to rip it up and start again he's essentially gone fully down the Robinson, Johnson etc road of experience first recidivism and brought back in spent forces under the demonstrably false premise that they will somehow bring some magic back. Its like some sort of cargo cult operating in the belief that the closer you get to having the same team sheet as the 2019 semi final line up, the more likely you are to capture that lightning in a bottle again.

Ultimately this world cup was always going to be some degree of a write off, as the damage was done under Jones, but I never expected it to get this much worse. I'd expect Borthwick to be being challenged to outline exactly how we're going to improve going forward once we are back home, and if he doesn't give a bloody good, highly detailed plan, he should be summarily dismissed and a proper process carried out over the course of the rest of the year to find a team to come in ahead of next year's 6 nations.

If France win the RWC, you'd think Edwards might fancy being the number 1 over here for a new challenge.

[Which Tyler]

Right.
I think I may have enjoyed a little more wine with lunch than I should have.

Get on the phone to SCW. Give him carte blanche to review and reform the RFU, the board, the academies, the amateur system, semi-pro and professional levels - mens, women's and sevens.

Got until December to come up with a blueprint, until April to enact them, and negotiate with the clubs, play hardball, especially with the development pathways.

[Danno]

Ok but he's not allowed near a microphone ever again

[pompey-zebra]

Per Dawson on BBC website:



We can't neglect the fact there are plenty of resources, lots of coaches and loads of training time. I don't believe there can be an excuse.

It does not take eight months to coach a side to deliver that kind of performance against Fiji. It was like it was Steve Borthwick's first game in charge and the players weren't sure how to play together.

They are significantly underperforming for how long they have been together."

He's right.

Borthwick has handled the team very poorly and not made the best use of time and resources.

Regardless of the coaching, are the players actually very good? And are the players 2-3 selections below good enough?

[p/d]

Per Dawson on BBC website:



We can't neglect the fact there are plenty of resources, lots of coaches and loads of training time. I don't believe there can be an excuse.

It does not take eight months to coach a side to deliver that kind of performance against Fiji. It was like it was Steve Borthwick's first game in charge and the players weren't sure how to play together.

They are significantly underperforming for how long they have been together."[/i]

He's right.

Borthwick has handled the team very poorly and not made the best use of time and resources.

Regardless of the coaching, are the players actually very good? And are the players 2-3 selections below good enough?

You should know better than ask questions like that

[Oakboy]

Per Dawson on BBC website:



We can't neglect the fact there are plenty of resources, lots of coaches and loads of training time. I don't believe there can be an excuse.

It does not take eight months to coach a side to deliver that kind of performance against Fiji. It was like it was Steve Borthwick's first game in charge and the players weren't sure how to play together.

They are significantly underperforming for how long they have been together."

He's right.

Borthwick has handled the team very poorly and not made the best use of time and resources.

Regardless of the coaching, are the players actually very good? And are the players 2-3 selections below good enough?

How will we know until we get a head coach who can get the best out of them? Yes, the players are not world beaters but is there a single one who is on top form? Steward has looked solid in past games but even he has gone off.

Even worse, the team unit is getting worse, game on game. Based on the state of things when he took over, SB must have had the word 'improve' somewhere in his job spec presumably?

[Puja]

Right.
I think I may have enjoyed a little more wine with lunch than I should have.

Get on the phone to SCW. Give him carte blanche to review and reform the RFU, the board, the academies, the amateur system, semi-pro and professional levels - mens, women's and sevens.

Got until December to come up with a blueprint, until April to enact them, and negotiate with the clubs, play hardball, especially with the development pathways.

If the answer is SCW, you have asked the wrong question.

Puja

[pompey-zebra]

He's right.

Borthwick has handled the team very poorly and not made the best use of time and resources.

Regardless of the coaching, are the players actually very good? And are the players 2-3 selections below good enough?

How will we know until we get a head coach who can get the best out of them?

You did, in 2016-17.

[Mellsblue]

Right.
I think I may have enjoyed a little more wine with lunch than I should have.

Get on the phone to SCW. Give him carte blanche to review and reform the RFU, the board, the academies, the amateur system, semi-pro and professional levels - mens, women's and sevens.

Got until December to come up with a blueprint, until April to enact them, and negotiate with the clubs, play hardball, especially with the development pathways.

If the answer is SCW, you have asked the wrong question.

Puja

What if the question is ‘Who has made a lucrative 20 year career out of the phrase t-cup without having achieved anything of note during that period?’?

[Oakboy]

Regardless of the coaching, are the players actually very good? And are the players 2-3 selections below good enough?

How will we know until we get a head coach who can get the best out of them?

You did, in 2016-17.

Possibly. At the time loads of posters on this board kept suggesting the bubble would burst and quite a few talked about luck. Perhaps that winning streak gave a false perspective. The same head coach hardly ever got the best out of the team/the players thereafter. But that's history now. The irony is that some of the players are still there now 7-8 years older and not playing up to their experience.

[pompey-zebra]

How will we know until we get a head coach who can get the best out of them?

You did, in 2016-17.

Possibly. At the time loads of posters on this board kept suggesting the bubble would burst and quite a few talked about luck. Perhaps that winning streak gave a false perspective. The same head coach hardly ever got the best out of the team/the players thereafter. But that's history now. The irony is that some of the players are still there now 7-8 years older and not playing up to their experience.

Or 7-8 years later there's still not an alternative 23 that's better.

[Stom]

I'm going to keep banging the painting by numbers nonsense as being the root of all evil in rugby. Stupendously Boring seems to be a HUGE fan of living up to his name and playing that way. Which is stupid, as it quite obviously does not work. Maybe if any other top team played that way, but none do, and there's a reason for that.

We need to go back to our roots and prioritise player power.

[Stom]

You did, in 2016-17.

Possibly. At the time loads of posters on this board kept suggesting the bubble would burst and quite a few talked about luck. Perhaps that winning streak gave a false perspective. The same head coach hardly ever got the best out of the team/the players thereafter. But that's history now. The irony is that some of the players are still there now 7-8 years older and not playing up to their experience.

Or 7-8 years later there's still not an alternative 23 that's better.

I don't think you'll find anyone who argues that we haven't produced too many world class players. BUT...

Billy V vs TWillis or Mercer or Dombrandt?
Care vs Quirke?
Youngs vs JVP?
Farrell vs Any other player in history
Tuilagi vs Any fit player

I'd say that we SHOULD have ditched all of the above, as there ARE obvious better options that have not been picked.

[Mikey Brown]

Earl didn’t work at 8 then?

[pompey-zebra]

Possibly. At the time loads of posters on this board kept suggesting the bubble would burst and quite a few talked about luck. Perhaps that winning streak gave a false perspective. The same head coach hardly ever got the best out of the team/the players thereafter. But that's history now. The irony is that some of the players are still there now 7-8 years older and not playing up to their experience.

Or 7-8 years later there's still not an alternative 23 that's better.

I don't think you'll find anyone who argues that we haven't produced too many world class players. BUT...

Billy V vs TWillis or Mercer or Dombrandt?
Care vs Quirke?
Youngs vs JVP?
Farrell vs Any other player in history
Tuilagi vs Any fit player

I'd say that we SHOULD have ditched all of the above, as there ARE obvious better options that have not been picked.

Most of those alternatives mentioned have been tried and not noticeably been much if any improvement. Would for example Tuilagi continue to be picked if a clear alternative had made himself known during the many times he's been out injured? And as for the much maligned Farrell, has anyone actually been more effective?

[Banquo]

Right.
. Give someone carte blanche to review and reform the RFU, the board, the academies, the amateur system, semi-pro and professional levels - mens, women's and sevens.

Got until December to come up with a blueprint, until April to enact them, and negotiate with the clubs, play hardball, especially with the development pathways.

I can get behind this. Some maybe happening already #justsaying

[Spiffy]

Or 7-8 years later there's still not an alternative 23 that's better.

I don't think you'll find anyone who argues that we haven't produced too many world class players. BUT...

Billy V vs TWillis or Mercer or Dombrandt?
Care vs Quirke?
Youngs vs JVP?
Farrell vs Any other player in history
Tuilagi vs Any fit player

I'd say that we SHOULD have ditched all of the above, as there ARE obvious better options that have not been picked.

Most of those alternatives mentioned have been tried and not noticeably been much if any improvement. Would for example Tuilagi continue to be picked if a clear alternative had made himself known during the many times he's been out injured? And as for the much maligned Farrell, has anyone actually been more effective?

If nobody has been more effective than Faz it's probably because no other has been given the chance.

[pompey-zebra]

I don't think you'll find anyone who argues that we haven't produced too many world class players. BUT...

Billy V vs TWillis or Mercer or Dombrandt?
Care vs Quirke?
Youngs vs JVP?
Farrell vs Any other player in history
Tuilagi vs Any fit player

I'd say that we SHOULD have ditched all of the above, as there ARE obvious better options that have not been picked.

Most of those alternatives mentioned have been tried and not noticeably been much if any improvement. Would for example Tuilagi continue to be picked if a clear alternative had made himself known during the many times he's been out injured? And as for the much maligned Farrell, has anyone actually been more effective?

If nobody has been more effective than Faz it's probably because no other has been given the chance.

Were they not given a chance in the last two tests at least?

[loudnconfident]

Per Dawson on BBC website:

"This is the most prepared underperforming England side there has ever been going into a World Cup.

We can't neglect the fact there are plenty of resources, lots of coaches and loads of training time. I don't believe there can be an excuse.

It does not take eight months to coach a side to deliver that kind of performance against Fiji. It was like it was Steve Borthwick's first game in charge and the players weren't sure how to play together.

They are significantly underperforming for how long they have been together."

He's right.

Borthwick has handled the team very poorly and not made the best use of time and resources.

But we're stuck with him for the WC. Best case scenario is that we find our feet in France, play some semi decent rugby, get through the pool stage and contest a QF in better shape than we are currently in. It might come together.....it might.

After that, well who knows. Doubt the RFU would be keen to jettison their preferred coach in under a year and there is a case for seeing how the next 6N's pan out before making a definitive judgement.

Dawson wrote "Everything looks a bit cosy".
I'm a bit fed up with the TV cuts to a grinning Manu Tuilagi. I mean, I'm glad he's enjoying himself, but after yesterdays performance a happy smile is inappropriate...

[Stom]

Or 7-8 years later there's still not an alternative 23 that's better.

I don't think you'll find anyone who argues that we haven't produced too many world class players. BUT...

Billy V vs TWillis or Mercer or Dombrandt?
Care vs Quirke?
Youngs vs JVP?
Farrell vs Any other player in history
Tuilagi vs Any fit player

I'd say that we SHOULD have ditched all of the above, as there ARE obvious better options that have not been picked.

Most of those alternatives mentioned have been tried and not noticeably been much if any improvement. Would for example Tuilagi continue to be picked if a clear alternative had made himself known during the many times he's been out injured? And as for the much maligned Farrell, has anyone actually been more effective?

More effective than the last times Tuilagi has played? Most players.

And more effective than Farrell? Well Ford for one. And no-one else has really been given a chance. Smith has had, what, a handful of games to try and press his case. Ford was being consistently the best fly half around, and still got dropped for Farrell.