England vs Fiji - Sat 3.15pm
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Re: England vs Fiji - Sat 3.15pm
I hope Farrell returns sporting the Aussie 10’s haircut.
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Re: England vs Fiji - Sat 3.15pm
Ford had 80 odd caps now so has had plenty of chance, and was little if any more effective over the last two tests than Farrell ( apart from not getting sent off obviously) so how he would change the dynamic of a faltering England is questionable at least. Smith has now more than 20 caps and had not yet convinced, so much so that he now seen as a impact full back. An arguement can be made that Farrell has had many more chances than his ability deserved, but neither Ford nor Smith have made an unanswerable case to rule Farrell out of the squad.Stom wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 6:18 pmMore effective than the last times Tuilagi has played? Most players.pompey-zebra wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 4:46 pmMost of those alternatives mentioned have been tried and not noticeably been much if any improvement. Would for example Tuilagi continue to be picked if a clear alternative had made himself known during the many times he's been out injured? And as for the much maligned Farrell, has anyone actually been more effective?Stom wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 4:34 pm
I don't think you'll find anyone who argues that we haven't produced too many world class players. BUT...
Billy V vs TWillis or Mercer or Dombrandt?
Care vs Quirke?
Youngs vs JVP?
Farrell vs Any other player in history
Tuilagi vs Any fit player
I'd say that we SHOULD have ditched all of the above, as there ARE obvious better options that have not been picked.
And more effective than Farrell? Well Ford for one. And no-one else has really been given a chance. Smith has had, what, a handful of games to try and press his case. Ford was being consistently the best fly half around, and still got dropped for Farrell.
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Re: England vs Fiji - Sat 3.15pm
Both of those are more naturally skillful than the wooden soldier and far less of a liability.
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- Oakboy
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Re: England vs Fiji - Sat 3.15pm
That is the crunch. Farrell at 12 effectively negates flair/skill at 10 and doesn't do much for the other backs either.
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Re: England vs Fiji - Sat 3.15pm
I don't think Steward has gone off per se - he's just a one-trick pony who's increasingly been found out.Oakboy wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 3:51 pmHow will we know until we get a head coach who can get the best out of them? Yes, the players are not world beaters but is there a single one who is on top form? Steward has looked solid in past games but even he has gone off.pompey-zebra wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 3:36 pmRegardless of the coaching, are the players actually very good? And are the players 2-3 selections below good enough?fivepointer wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 11:29 am
He's right.
Borthwick has handled the team very poorly and not made the best use of time and resources.
Even worse, the team unit is getting worse, game on game. Based on the state of things when he took over, SB must have had the word 'improve' somewhere in his job spec presumably?
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Re: England vs Fiji - Sat 3.15pm
Fin Smith it is then (actually I think he could be right in the mix come the next 6N).pompey-zebra wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 7:01 pmFord had 80 odd caps now so has had plenty of chance, and was little if any more effective over the last two tests than Farrell ( apart from not getting sent off obviously) so how he would change the dynamic of a faltering England is questionable at least. Smith has now more than 20 caps and had not yet convinced, so much so that he now seen as a impact full back. An arguement can be made that Farrell has had many more chances than his ability deserved, but neither Ford nor Smith have made an unanswerable case to rule Farrell out of the squad.Stom wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 6:18 pmMore effective than the last times Tuilagi has played? Most players.pompey-zebra wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 4:46 pm
Most of those alternatives mentioned have been tried and not noticeably been much if any improvement. Would for example Tuilagi continue to be picked if a clear alternative had made himself known during the many times he's been out injured? And as for the much maligned Farrell, has anyone actually been more effective?
And more effective than Farrell? Well Ford for one. And no-one else has really been given a chance. Smith has had, what, a handful of games to try and press his case. Ford was being consistently the best fly half around, and still got dropped for Farrell.
As primarily a Scotland fan, Ford is no Finn Russell (crazy that there was a debate about which should make the lions tour to me) but he scares me more than Farrell. England have some phenomenal athletes and what I worry about is a ten that can get them on the front foot and hitting soft shoulders. If you're going to pick Ford then the team needs to be picked to maximise his skillset - Young's at 9 with an instruction to get the ball moving fast no matter what, Genge and Ludlum/Earls freed up to carry hard and absolute gas on the wings to exploit narrow defences.
Whereas if you're going to pick Farrell then go for the best box kicking option at 9, solidity in midfield, good chasers on the songs and your best set piece forwards. Smith might be Mitchell at 9 to keep the defense honest, hard working wings who run good angles (Murley) and an Uber athletic pack (Curry/Willis/Earls) to run the opposition off their feet.
What I'm trying to say is that England don't seem to have tailored their plan to the players in recent weeks - they're trying to get the players to follow a set plan. You can do the latter at club level where you can sign players, much harder at international level where you largely have what you have.
- Mellsblue
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Re: England vs Fiji - Sat 3.15pm
The Ford and Smith are no better than Farrell argument is laughable given the length of rope Farrell has been given in comparison.
Last edited by Mellsblue on Sun Aug 27, 2023 9:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: England vs Fiji - Sat 3.15pm
I would agree that they don't seem to have tailored their plan, but I think that largely because there is no plan beyond kick a lot but with no thought process behind, mainly run one out into tacklers, defend badly, concede stupid penalties and drop the ball constantly.switchskier wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 9:03 pmFin Smith it is then (actually I think he could be right in the mix come the next 6N).pompey-zebra wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 7:01 pmFord had 80 odd caps now so has had plenty of chance, and was little if any more effective over the last two tests than Farrell ( apart from not getting sent off obviously) so how he would change the dynamic of a faltering England is questionable at least. Smith has now more than 20 caps and had not yet convinced, so much so that he now seen as a impact full back. An arguement can be made that Farrell has had many more chances than his ability deserved, but neither Ford nor Smith have made an unanswerable case to rule Farrell out of the squad.Stom wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 6:18 pm
More effective than the last times Tuilagi has played? Most players.
And more effective than Farrell? Well Ford for one. And no-one else has really been given a chance. Smith has had, what, a handful of games to try and press his case. Ford was being consistently the best fly half around, and still got dropped for Farrell.
As primarily a Scotland fan, Ford is no Finn Russell (crazy that there was a debate about which should make the lions tour to me) but he scares me more than Farrell. England have some phenomenal athletes and what I worry about is a ten that can get them on the front foot and hitting soft shoulders. If you're going to pick Ford then the team needs to be picked to maximise his skillset - Young's at 9 with an instruction to get the ball moving fast no matter what, Genge and Ludlum/Earls freed up to carry hard and absolute gas on the wings to exploit narrow defences.
Whereas if you're going to pick Farrell then go for the best box kicking option at 9, solidity in midfield, good chasers on the songs and your best set piece forwards. Smith might be Mitchell at 9 to keep the defense honest, hard working wings who run good angles (Murley) and an Uber athletic pack (Curry/Willis/Earls) to run the opposition off their feet.
What I'm trying to say is that England don't seem to have tailored their plan to the players in recent weeks - they're trying to get the players to follow a set plan. You can do the latter at club level where you can sign players, much harder at international level where you largely have what you have.
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Re: England vs Fiji - Sat 3.15pm
He's clearly not a one trick pony he just has one obvious weakness that is easy to exploit when England's defence narrows up. Fiji didn't manage to exploit it at the weekend but then didn't need to as apparently our forwards seem to struggle to fill in guards to ruck defence. Earl and then Ribbans inexplicably costing us two tries with something you'd expect an under 9 to be able to grasp as a concept.rjjb wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 8:45 pmI don't think Steward has gone off per se - he's just a one-trick pony who's increasingly been found out.Oakboy wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 3:51 pmHow will we know until we get a head coach who can get the best out of them? Yes, the players are not world beaters but is there a single one who is on top form? Steward has looked solid in past games but even he has gone off.pompey-zebra wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 3:36 pm
Regardless of the coaching, are the players actually very good? And are the players 2-3 selections below good enough?
Even worse, the team unit is getting worse, game on game. Based on the state of things when he took over, SB must have had the word 'improve' somewhere in his job spec presumably?
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Re: England vs Fiji - Sat 3.15pm
I feel a little bit for Earl, yes he left a hole but that’s because no other fucker bothered to actually get to the ruck. He should be more aware of his defensive team mates, but it’s not unreasonable to expect someone to put just a smidge of effort in. He should have checked, but it’s a whole defence failure. If Earl stays close there I are gaps wide and still on the other side of the ruck. Symptom of our defence being utter shunt.FKAS wrote: ↑Mon Aug 28, 2023 5:55 amHe's clearly not a one trick pony he just has one obvious weakness that is easy to exploit when England's defence narrows up. Fiji didn't manage to exploit it at the weekend but then didn't need to as apparently our forwards seem to struggle to fill in guards to ruck defence. Earl and then Ribbans inexplicably costing us two tries with something you'd expect an under 9 to be able to grasp as a concept.rjjb wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 8:45 pmI don't think Steward has gone off per se - he's just a one-trick pony who's increasingly been found out.Oakboy wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 3:51 pm
How will we know until we get a head coach who can get the best out of them? Yes, the players are not world beaters but is there a single one who is on top form? Steward has looked solid in past games but even he has gone off.
Even worse, the team unit is getting worse, game on game. Based on the state of things when he took over, SB must have had the word 'improve' somewhere in his job spec presumably?
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Re: England vs Fiji - Sat 3.15pm
Yep.Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Mon Aug 28, 2023 8:44 amI feel a little bit for Earl, yes he left a hole but that’s because no other fucker bothered to actually get to the ruck. He should be more aware of his defensive team mates, but it’s not unreasonable to expect someone to put just a smidge of effort in. He should have checked, but it’s a whole defence failure. If Earl stays close there I are gaps wide and still on the other side of the ruck. Symptom of our defence being utter shunt.FKAS wrote: ↑Mon Aug 28, 2023 5:55 amHe's clearly not a one trick pony he just has one obvious weakness that is easy to exploit when England's defence narrows up. Fiji didn't manage to exploit it at the weekend but then didn't need to as apparently our forwards seem to struggle to fill in guards to ruck defence. Earl and then Ribbans inexplicably costing us two tries with something you'd expect an under 9 to be able to grasp as a concept.
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Re: England vs Fiji - Sat 3.15pm
Easy to pick on poor individual efforts. There's been plenty of those in the 4 warm up games.
I'm struggling to think of a single performance from one of our players over the 4 games that came close to them being at their best.
It cant be that they all cant play, but that the way they are being prepared is simply not up to scratch.
Whether that improves enough for us to not be a total embarrassment at the WC is the question now.
I'm struggling to think of a single performance from one of our players over the 4 games that came close to them being at their best.
It cant be that they all cant play, but that the way they are being prepared is simply not up to scratch.
Whether that improves enough for us to not be a total embarrassment at the WC is the question now.
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Re: England vs Fiji - Sat 3.15pm
As I pointed out in the match, the man working across was Dan Cole. Our set up doesn't seem to account for that fact that at some point a knackered old prop may be the guy needed to link the outside and inside defence.Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Mon Aug 28, 2023 8:44 amI feel a little bit for Earl, yes he left a hole but that’s because no other fucker bothered to actually get to the ruck. He should be more aware of his defensive team mates, but it’s not unreasonable to expect someone to put just a smidge of effort in. He should have checked, but it’s a whole defence failure. If Earl stays close there I are gaps wide and still on the other side of the ruck. Symptom of our defence being utter shunt.FKAS wrote: ↑Mon Aug 28, 2023 5:55 amHe's clearly not a one trick pony he just has one obvious weakness that is easy to exploit when England's defence narrows up. Fiji didn't manage to exploit it at the weekend but then didn't need to as apparently our forwards seem to struggle to fill in guards to ruck defence. Earl and then Ribbans inexplicably costing us two tries with something you'd expect an under 9 to be able to grasp as a concept.
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Re: England vs Fiji - Sat 3.15pm
Sad to see a top bloke out of his depth tbh. In fact sad to see quite a lot of top blokes out of their depth.
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Re: England vs Fiji - Sat 3.15pm
It is. They have been over promoted.
Which begs the question why someone running the show - Bill Sweeney or Conor O'Shea maybe - didnt recommend bringing on board a few seasoned pros at least in the short term.
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Re: England vs Fiji - Sat 3.15pm
Deja vu tbh. Jonno, Lancaster etc etc. Internationally experienced Jones parachutes in and makes an immediate difference.fivepointer wrote: ↑Mon Aug 28, 2023 11:06 amIt is. They have been over promoted.
Which begs the question why someone running the show - Bill Sweeney or Conor O'Shea maybe - didnt recommend bringing on board a few seasoned pros at least in the short term.
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Re: England vs Fiji - Sat 3.15pm
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Re: England vs Fiji - Sat 3.15pm
Spot on. With so many players underperforming, I find it hard to believe that SB has not made an adjustment or two to the squad. May for Watson as the only change seems to indicate a silly stubborn streak or blindness to reality. Now, the only theoretical personnel improvement for the Argentina game is Curry if fit but should he be selected with no game time behind him? Beyond that first match, does everything rest on transformation when Vunipola and Farrell return? If so, there is little hope.fivepointer wrote: ↑Mon Aug 28, 2023 9:28 am Easy to pick on poor individual efforts. There's been plenty of those in the 4 warm up games.
I'm struggling to think of a single performance from one of our players over the 4 games that came close to them being at their best.
It cant be that they all cant play, but that the way they are being prepared is simply not up to scratch.
Whether that improves enough for us to not be a total embarrassment at the WC is the question now.
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Re: England vs Fiji - Sat 3.15pm

I think Kevin Sinfield is a great guy, hence the sadness. Which is different to not having sympathy for taking the role- but more importantly, it shouldn't have been offered. MInd, who offered you the role of winding Mells up

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Re: England vs Fiji - Sat 3.15pm
Mells is as sharp as a tack, so you have to grab the opportunity when it arises.Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Aug 28, 2023 12:09 pm![]()
I think Kevin Sinfield is a great guy, hence the sadness. Which is different to not having sympathy for taking the role- but more importantly, it shouldn't have been offered. MInd, who offered you the role of winding Mells up![]()
Watching the Aus game last night I couldn’t help but admire the intent and ambition of Jones’ boys. And if the mullet could kick his goals then the result could have been closer. Had sort of hoped this is what we would have seen from England. Similar results and I’ll discipline but you feel Australia have something to build on, whilst us…..
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Re: England vs Fiji - Sat 3.15pm
Doesn't matter, you move off from guard and push out when the inside defender pushes you out. You can always track across and out, if you get broken inside you then you are in far more trouble.16th man wrote: ↑Mon Aug 28, 2023 10:16 amAs I pointed out in the match, the man working across was Dan Cole. Our set up doesn't seem to account for that fact that at some point a knackered old prop may be the guy needed to link the outside and inside defence.Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Mon Aug 28, 2023 8:44 amI feel a little bit for Earl, yes he left a hole but that’s because no other fucker bothered to actually get to the ruck. He should be more aware of his defensive team mates, but it’s not unreasonable to expect someone to put just a smidge of effort in. He should have checked, but it’s a whole defence failure. If Earl stays close there I are gaps wide and still on the other side of the ruck. Symptom of our defence being utter shunt.FKAS wrote: ↑Mon Aug 28, 2023 5:55 am
He's clearly not a one trick pony he just has one obvious weakness that is easy to exploit when England's defence narrows up. Fiji didn't manage to exploit it at the weekend but then didn't need to as apparently our forwards seem to struggle to fill in guards to ruck defence. Earl and then Ribbans inexplicably costing us two tries with something you'd expect an under 9 to be able to grasp as a concept.
Sinfield, like all of the coaches, is going to face a lot of pressure if the world cup goes as bad as we expect it will. The England players not trusting each other, not buying into his philosophy or just being to thick to follow the basics - whatever the reality it needs to be fixed and fixed fast if we want to avoid further embarrassment.