RWC Training Squad

[FKAS]

Let’s hope their plan isn’t to try and save face by focusing on the physicality, as we do not have the players for that. Though I expect they will work on their kicking so one trick can compete in an attacking position and up our territory dominance.

Sinfield's defence doesn't work well without dominant tackles and Borthwick's set piece game won't go well without physicality.

The kick game is adequate, though very dull, currently.

You can win a world cup with a boring attacking game, you can't win one without a good defence. I'd hope we are drilling alignment and work rate in defence everyday between now and Argentina.

[Banquo]

Let’s hope their plan isn’t to try and save face by focusing on the physicality, as we do not have the players for that. Though I expect they will work on their kicking so one trick can compete in an attacking position and up our territory dominance.

Sinfield's defence doesn't work well without dominant tackles and Borthwick's set piece game won't go well without physicality.

The kick game is adequate, though very dull, currently.

You can win a world cup with a boring attacking game, you can't win one without a good defence. I'd hope we are drilling alignment and work rate in defence everyday between now and Argentina.

does beg the question of why they are therefore coaching a set of tactics and game plan which doesn't suit the players they have. Let alone whether they can coach to intl quality. Maybe they haven't had much time, but you can't magic physicality or dominent tackles up easily.

In fairness our defence out wide has been unconvincing for a while, we've just added holes closer in; our discipline remains a big issue as well.

No one would give a crap about playing so called boring tactics (I don't personally find many tactics boring...its the tactical mix up that makes rugby what it is for me) if a- they are executed very well (along with other basics, see c), b- if they lead to wins (and no doubt you would add, c- we took advantage of any territorial advantages).

Not too sure where they go from here- I don't think the crew know how to coach a different, quicker or wider set of tactics....nor indeed whether we have the skill for that to work consistently at this level.

[morepork]

He is completely lost, the poor bastard.

Knowing what's going wrong and being able to correct it are two different things. I have full confidence that Borthwick knows what's going wrong but the lack of experience in the coaching staff and their ability to fix things is a concern. Hindsight being 20/20 we should have had an experienced coaching option in to assist with Felix Jones not arriving until after the world cup though none of us were excited about having Wigglesworth lead the attack in the short term.

Wait, Wigglesworth is the attack coach? The ex halfback wot did nothing but box kicks all the time? Who's genius plan was that?

[Mikey Brown]

He is completely lost, the poor bastard.

Knowing what's going wrong and being able to correct it are two different things. I have full confidence that Borthwick knows what's going wrong but the lack of experience in the coaching staff and their ability to fix things is a concern. Hindsight being 20/20 we should have had an experienced coaching option in to assist with Felix Jones not arriving until after the world cup though none of us were excited about having Wigglesworth lead the attack in the short term.

Wait, Wigglesworth is the attack coach? The ex halfback wot did nothing but box kicks all the time? Who's genius plan was that?

…plan???

[Oakboy]

Let’s hope their plan isn’t to try and save face by focusing on the physicality, as we do not have the players for that. Though I expect they will work on their kicking so one trick can compete in an attacking position and up our territory dominance.

Sinfield's defence doesn't work well without dominant tackles and Borthwick's set piece game won't go well without physicality.

The kick game is adequate, though very dull, currently.

You can win a world cup with a boring attacking game, you can't win one without a good defence. I'd hope we are drilling alignment and work rate in defence everyday between now and Argentina.

does beg the question of why they are therefore coaching a set of tactics and game plan which doesn't suit the players they have. Let alone whether they can coach to intl quality. Maybe they haven't had much time, but you can't magic physicality or dominent tackles up easily.

In fairness our defence out wide has been unconvincing for a while, we've just added holes closer in; our discipline remains a big issue as well.

No one would give a crap about playing so called boring tactics (I don't personally find many tactics boring...its the tactical mix up that makes rugby what it is for me) if a- they are executed very well (along with other basics, see c), b- if they lead to wins (and no doubt you would add, c- we took advantage of any territorial advantages).

Not too sure where they go from here- I don't think the crew know how to coach a different, quicker or wider set of tactics....nor indeed whether we have the skill for that to work consistently at this level.

Banquo, how do you react to Dawson, Greenwood and others saying that in terms of in-camp build-up they have had loads of time (8 weeks??)? Now, Ford is quoted as saying there have been too many mistakes in training. What the hell does that mean? The routines are being screwed up? The routines keep being changed? The training/preparation is wrong?

Are we seeing yet another instance of England training actually making the players worse? Four warm-up games demonstrated zero game-on-game improvement. That seems atrocious to my simple mind in the circumstances.

[FKAS]

Knowing what's going wrong and being able to correct it are two different things. I have full confidence that Borthwick knows what's going wrong but the lack of experience in the coaching staff and their ability to fix things is a concern. Hindsight being 20/20 we should have had an experienced coaching option in to assist with Felix Jones not arriving until after the world cup though none of us were excited about having Wigglesworth lead the attack in the short term.

Wait, Wigglesworth is the attack coach? The ex halfback wot did nothing but box kicks all the time? Who's genius plan was that?

…plan???

Pretty much that. He's supposed to be there in a skills capacity but they couldn't get the attack coach they wanted until post world cup and no one else on a short term basis.

[Margin_Walker]

He is completely lost, the poor bastard.

Knowing what's going wrong and being able to correct it are two different things. I have full confidence that Borthwick knows what's going wrong but the lack of experience in the coaching staff and their ability to fix things is a concern. Hindsight being 20/20 we should have had an experienced coaching option in to assist with Felix Jones not arriving until after the world cup though none of us were excited about having Wigglesworth lead the attack in the short term.

Wait, Wigglesworth is the attack coach? The ex halfback wot did nothing but box kicks all the time? Who's genius plan was that?

Not as odd as O'Gara starting out as a defence coach tbf.

But, yeah.

[Banquo]

Sinfield's defence doesn't work well without dominant tackles and Borthwick's set piece game won't go well without physicality.

The kick game is adequate, though very dull, currently.

You can win a world cup with a boring attacking game, you can't win one without a good defence. I'd hope we are drilling alignment and work rate in defence everyday between now and Argentina.

does beg the question of why they are therefore coaching a set of tactics and game plan which doesn't suit the players they have. Let alone whether they can coach to intl quality. Maybe they haven't had much time, but you can't magic physicality or dominent tackles up easily.

In fairness our defence out wide has been unconvincing for a while, we've just added holes closer in; our discipline remains a big issue as well.

No one would give a crap about playing so called boring tactics (I don't personally find many tactics boring...its the tactical mix up that makes rugby what it is for me) if a- they are executed very well (along with other basics, see c), b- if they lead to wins (and no doubt you would add, c- we took advantage of any territorial advantages).

Not too sure where they go from here- I don't think the crew know how to coach a different, quicker or wider set of tactics....nor indeed whether we have the skill for that to work consistently at this level.

Banquo, how do you react to Dawson, Greenwood and others saying that in terms of in-camp build-up they have had loads of time (8 weeks??)? Now, Ford is quoted as saying there have been too many mistakes in training. What the hell does that mean? The routines are being screwed up? The routines keep being changed? The training/preparation is wrong?

Are we seeing yet another instance of England training actually making the players worse? Four warm-up games demonstrated zero game-on-game improvement. That seems atrocious to my simple mind in the circumstances.

Frankly, all Greenwood and Dawson are doing is trying to attract attention, even if it does confirm what it is sort of obvious to the knowledgeable and casual fan alike. Absolutely no clue what Ford is trying to say....possibly an indicator of overall confusion, or maybe they are trying to do new stuff...like passing say. Joking, but its possible there is a shift in tactics (to what, no idea).

No improvement is damning, especially on basic stuff. BTW....Eddie improved our team no end in 2019 RWC training to RWC semi...glean what you will from that

[FKAS]

Knowing what's going wrong and being able to correct it are two different things. I have full confidence that Borthwick knows what's going wrong but the lack of experience in the coaching staff and their ability to fix things is a concern. Hindsight being 20/20 we should have had an experienced coaching option in to assist with Felix Jones not arriving until after the world cup though none of us were excited about having Wigglesworth lead the attack in the short term.

Wait, Wigglesworth is the attack coach? The ex halfback wot did nothing but box kicks all the time? Who's genius plan was that?

Not as odd as O'Gara starting out as a defence coach tbf.

But, yeah.

Seems to be a thing, defence and attack coaches switching between roles. Scott Robertson one of the head coaches most associated with brilliant attacking rugby started as a defence coach. Felix Jones who's joining after the world cup started as an attack coach at the last world cup and then switched to defence coach for this one.

That being said when it comes to tackling technique ROG probably used some clips of his playing days as what not to do.

[Margin_Walker]

Yep. Brad Davies too. Get gigs as a defence coach in union and becomes pretty successful at that over many years. Then ends up at LI running the attack, and getting the Australia job doing the same (briefly, before deciding working for Eddie isn't worth whatever they pay).

Seems if you have a real aptitude for coaching and are knowledgeable about the game, doing either isn't a stretch.

[Mellsblue]

Ford’s comments on poor quality during training was about players’ skill levels, attitude etc not the quality of the coaching itself but…

[Oakboy]

Ford’s comments on poor quality during training was about players’ skill levels, attitude etc not the quality of the coaching itself but…

Even if it was saying, 'It's the players' fault, not the coaches'', I still found it odd that he was alluding to training that was at fault for match performances/results. It was Ford, for goodness sake! I've not been a major fan over the years but if I was going to pick fifteen players to just go and play without preparation/coaching, I'd rate him as a natural who did not need 50 sets of 'what-if' routines practised to perfection.

Whatever, something is wrong, badly wrong. If players are not unanimously behind the coaching message and happy with their individual/collective progress is there much hope?

[Mellsblue]

Ford’s comments on poor quality during training was about players’ skill levels, attitude etc not the quality of the coaching itself but…

Even if it was saying, 'It's the players' fault, not the coaches'',

That’s what he was saying…
As for the rest, there can’t be a more difficult position to play than 10 if the team isn’t well coached…

[Which Tyler]

As for the rest, there can’t be a more difficult position to play than 10 if the team isn’t well coached…

I'd have to agree with that.
FH's job is to get the team singing from the same hymn sheet, and using them to manipulate the opposition. They can't just throw out the plan and do it themselves as they're job is most reliant on everyone else doing what they're supposed to be doing.
Hooker is up there as well, but only really at the set piece.

[Oakboy]

As for the rest, there can’t be a more difficult position to play than 10 if the team isn’t well coached…

I'd have to agree with that.
FH's job is to get the team singing from the same hymn sheet, and using them to manipulate the opposition. They can't just throw out the plan and do it themselves as they're job is most reliant on everyone else doing what they're supposed to be doing.
Hooker is up there as well, but only really at the set piece.

I wouldn't disagree with any of that for a second but the point I was trying to understand was Ford saying 'too many mistakes in training' after 8 weeks (or whatever). If the match performance showed no improvement in togetherness, mistake reduction and discipline what have they been doing?

We whinge correctly about a lack of top class players but the players we have are a lot better, IMO, than their collective performance indicates. That is the big disappointment.

[Mikey Brown]

As for the rest, there can’t be a more difficult position to play than 10 if the team isn’t well coached…

I'd have to agree with that.
FH's job is to get the team singing from the same hymn sheet, and using them to manipulate the opposition. They can't just throw out the plan and do it themselves as they're job is most reliant on everyone else doing what they're supposed to be doing.
Hooker is up there as well, but only really at the set piece.

I wouldn't disagree with any of that for a second but the point I was trying to understand was Ford saying 'too many mistakes in training' after 8 weeks (or whatever). If the match performance showed no improvement in togetherness, mistake reduction and discipline what have they been doing?

We whinge correctly about a lack of top class players but the players we have are a lot better, IMO, than their collective performance indicates. That is the big disappointment.

Feels more like he's saying what we're doing in training just isn't working and we're playing like shit. I'm not sure there's a whole lot more to read in to it?

And yes when 95% of the team are playing badly it seems pointless to even talk about individual player 'form'. We don't know what we're doing and it feels like basically everyone has lost confidence in it.

Make Ford attack coach, bring in Jonathon Joseph as defence coach and demote Wigglesworth to box-kick supervisor.

So who's starting at 8 vs Argentina?

[oldbackrow]

You'd let Wigglesworth supervise something?!

[Oakboy]

I'd have to agree with that.
FH's job is to get the team singing from the same hymn sheet, and using them to manipulate the opposition. They can't just throw out the plan and do it themselves as they're job is most reliant on everyone else doing what they're supposed to be doing.
Hooker is up there as well, but only really at the set piece.

I wouldn't disagree with any of that for a second but the point I was trying to understand was Ford saying 'too many mistakes in training' after 8 weeks (or whatever). If the match performance showed no improvement in togetherness, mistake reduction and discipline what have they been doing?

We whinge correctly about a lack of top class players but the players we have are a lot better, IMO, than their collective performance indicates. That is the big disappointment.

Feels more like he's saying what we're doing in training just isn't working and we're playing like shit. I'm not sure there's a whole lot more to read in to it?

And yes when 95% of the team are playing badly it seems pointless to even talk about individual player 'form'. We don't know what we're doing and it feels like basically everyone has lost confidence in it.

Make Ford attack coach, bring in Jonathon Joseph as defence coach and demote Wigglesworth to box-kick supervisor.

So who's starting at 8 vs Argentina?

Four choices for the 8 shirt appear to be Ludlam, Earl, J Willis and Curry (if fit). SB could have brought T Willis into the squad before yesterday but chose not to. Assuming that SB's 1st choice back row is Lawes, Curry and BV, if fit, Curry will start at 7 and Lawes at 6. I still think Willis is the best of the other three and would start him at 8 but SB, so far, disagrees. That means Ludlam at 8, I'd guess, with Earl on the bench. If Curry is not fit, presumably SB will then have Earl at 7 with Willis on the bench.

[jngf]

I wouldn't disagree with any of that for a second but the point I was trying to understand was Ford saying 'too many mistakes in training' after 8 weeks (or whatever). If the match performance showed no improvement in togetherness, mistake reduction and discipline what have they been doing?

We whinge correctly about a lack of top class players but the players we have are a lot better, IMO, than their collective performance indicates. That is the big disappointment.

Feels more like he's saying what we're doing in training just isn't working and we're playing like shit. I'm not sure there's a whole lot more to read in to it?

And yes when 95% of the team are playing badly it seems pointless to even talk about individual player 'form'. We don't know what we're doing and it feels like basically everyone has lost confidence in it.

Make Ford attack coach, bring in Jonathon Joseph as defence coach and demote Wigglesworth to box-kick supervisor.

So who's starting at 8 vs Argentina?

Four choices for the 8 shirt appear to be Ludlam, Earl, J Willis and Curry (if fit). SB could have brought T Willis into the squad before yesterday but chose not to. Assuming that SB's 1st choice back row is Lawes, Curry and BV, if fit, Curry will start at 7 and Lawes at 6. I still think Willis is the best of the other three and would start him at 8 but SB, so far, disagrees. That means Ludlam at 8, I'd guess, with Earl on the bench. If Curry is not fit, presumably SB will then have Earl at 7 with Willis on the bench.

Wild card would be to play George Martin at 8

[Mellsblue]

Always remember, it could be worse, we could be Welsh:

https://x.com/murray_kinsella/status/16 ... MV3j-SK8yQ

[Mikey Brown]

Feels more like he's saying what we're doing in training just isn't working and we're playing like shit. I'm not sure there's a whole lot more to read in to it?

And yes when 95% of the team are playing badly it seems pointless to even talk about individual player 'form'. We don't know what we're doing and it feels like basically everyone has lost confidence in it.

Make Ford attack coach, bring in Jonathon Joseph as defence coach and demote Wigglesworth to box-kick supervisor.

So who's starting at 8 vs Argentina?

Four choices for the 8 shirt appear to be Ludlam, Earl, J Willis and Curry (if fit). SB could have brought T Willis into the squad before yesterday but chose not to. Assuming that SB's 1st choice back row is Lawes, Curry and BV, if fit, Curry will start at 7 and Lawes at 6. I still think Willis is the best of the other three and would start him at 8 but SB, so far, disagrees. That means Ludlam at 8, I'd guess, with Earl on the bench. If Curry is not fit, presumably SB will then have Earl at 7 with Willis on the bench.

Wild card would be to play George Martin at 8

Another wild card would be to play Joe Marler at 9.

Is there some reward to be had in naming selections that 100% will not happen? Because I have you beaten there but only by a very, very slim margin.

I guess it's Ludlam at 8, with Earl the most recent convert to not impress there?

[jngf]

Four choices for the 8 shirt appear to be Ludlam, Earl, J Willis and Curry (if fit). SB could have brought T Willis into the squad before yesterday but chose not to. Assuming that SB's 1st choice back row is Lawes, Curry and BV, if fit, Curry will start at 7 and Lawes at 6. I still think Willis is the best of the other three and would start him at 8 but SB, so far, disagrees. That means Ludlam at 8, I'd guess, with Earl on the bench. If Curry is not fit, presumably SB will then have Earl at 7 with Willis on the bench.

Wild card would be to play George Martin at 8

Another wild card would be to play Joe Marler at 9.

Is there some reward to be had in naming selections that 100% will not happen? Because I have you beaten there but only by a very, very slim margin.

I guess it's Ludlam at 8, with Earl the most recent convert to not impress there?

In which case start Ludlam there and use Earl on attacking scrums on occasion to use his explosiveness.

[Spiffy]

Wild card would be to play George Martin at 8

Another wild card would be to play Joe Marler at 9.

Is there some reward to be had in naming selections that 100% will not happen? Because I have you beaten there but only by a very, very slim margin.

I guess it's Ludlam at 8, with Earl the most recent convert to not impress there?

In which case start Ludlam there and use Earl on attacking scrums on occasion to use his explosiveness.

Or just drop Earl completely.

[Mikey Brown]

Another wild card would be to play Joe Marler at 9.

Is there some reward to be had in naming selections that 100% will not happen? Because I have you beaten there but only by a very, very slim margin.

I guess it's Ludlam at 8, with Earl the most recent convert to not impress there?

In which case start Ludlam there and use Earl on attacking scrums on occasion to use his explosiveness.

Or just drop Earl completely.

Because you don’t like him or because of how he’s been playing?

[p/d]

Always remember, it could be worse, we could be Welsh:

https://x.com/murray_kinsella/status/16 ... MV3j-SK8yQ

My favourite comment after Saturday’s game;

‘Oh how I laughed, right up to the point that I realised Fiji were in the same group as Wales’