RWC Training Squad

[FKAS]

I'd probably add Daly and Lawrence to the indifferent list but otherwise agree.

[16th man]

I'd like Dallaglio to explain how the outside backs should be owning their own performances under the current system, but that's a thought that requires more than a platitude like fronting up to get to, so is probably beyond him.

[16th man]

Anyone know when we should be expecting the team for Saturday to be announced?

[FKAS]

I'd like Dallaglio to explain how the outside backs should be owning their own performances under the current system, but that's a thought that requires more than a platitude like fronting up to get to, so is probably beyond him.

That much insight is highly cerebral thinking for Dayglo.

[FKAS]

Anyone know when we should be expecting the team for Saturday to be announced?

Probably Thursday again though there's question marks over the fitness of several players so it would be as late as possible I assume.

[Banquo]

Apropos of nothing much...our RWC final team in 2019 was the youngest ever (according to the Grauniad). Which is food for thought.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/ ... yI5HvX6R7A

[Oakboy]

Apropos of nothing much...our RWC final team in 2019 was the youngest ever (according to the Grauniad). Which is food for thought.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/ ... yI5HvX6R7A

A few things come out of that article in confirmation, anyway. Influence/corruption/Saracens issues (one way or another) caused Jones to get far longer in the job than was good for English rugby. Missing out on Edwards (possibly with A Farrell) and ending up with SB rather sums up RFU priorities/incompetence.

One factor has always puzzled me, in regard to age/seniority of players, linked with the Saracens issues. It is Itoje. Why has he never been given the England captaincy? Why is he running himself ragged without the purpose/dominance of his earlier career? Why does he seem to be the least influential of the Saracens group?

[16th man]

Apropos of nothing much...our RWC final team in 2019 was the youngest ever (according to the Grauniad). Which is food for thought.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/ ... yI5HvX6R7A

The squandering of that position is the most damning comment on Eddie Jones and the RFU.

[FKAS]

Apropos of nothing much...our RWC final team in 2019 was the youngest ever (according to the Grauniad). Which is food for thought.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/ ... yI5HvX6R7A

A few things come out of that article in confirmation, anyway. Influence/corruption/Saracens issues (one way or another) caused Jones to get far longer in the job than was good for English rugby. Missing out on Edwards (possibly with A Farrell) and ending up with SB rather sums up RFU priorities/incompetence.

The article mentions it being 2018 when we mooted talk of Farrell. At that point he was Ireland's defence coach and heir apparent, Gustard left in May and it was confirmed Farrell would lead Ireland post world cup in November. He wasn't going to switch nations unless the top job was on offer and at that point it wasn't (Jones had a contract until 2021).

Edwards has often flirted with England and the RFU but then always seems to land a well paid job somewhere else. He's currently got a deal until 2027 and lives in the South of France, must be terrible for him . I'd love to have him come in to the England set up, just can't see it.

This section reads like someone's been checking in on the forum.

"That scattergun approach is better understood, however, when you consider the fate of the RFU’s pathway system. Between 2011 and 2017 England won the under-20s Six Nations five times but only once since. In 2018, Dean Ryan, then the RFU’s head of international player development, gutted Twickenham of popular age-grade coaches including John Fletcher, Russell Earnshaw and Peter Walton – then left a year later. It was a move that is understood to have stunned Stuart Lancaster, who held a similar role before he was made head coach and one from which England have not recovered. Their world Under-20 title in 2016 was a third in four years but the trophy cabinet has since been bare.

The demise of the A League, Sweeney’s decision to slash Championship funding and a rigid academy catchment system all combine to leave young players starved of game time. Those such as Freddie Steward have emerged in spite of the RFU’s pathway rather than because of it."

[badback]

Apropos of nothing much...our RWC final team in 2019 was the youngest ever (according to the Grauniad). Which is food for thought.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/ ... yI5HvX6R7A

That was an interesting read. I always felt sure that the Saracen’s players must have got wind of the crisis before the 2019 final - and that is at least partly to blame for them being emotionally off the boil in that game. The article says they didn’t know before the final. I find that difficult to believe - surely there’s a gossip tree and someone would have texted them. But I don’t know and maybe the article is right.

The other part that interested me was the diagnosis. Essentially it seems to be pointing to two issues (beyond all the politics and personalities…). 1. The underage pathway was broken. 2) Saracen’s demise damaged the team.

The solutions to both seem obvious but I wonder whether anyone has the will or power to make it happen.

[Stom]

Apropos of nothing much...our RWC final team in 2019 was the youngest ever (according to the Grauniad). Which is food for thought.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/ ... yI5HvX6R7A

A few things come out of that article in confirmation, anyway. Influence/corruption/Saracens issues (one way or another) caused Jones to get far longer in the job than was good for English rugby. Missing out on Edwards (possibly with A Farrell) and ending up with SB rather sums up RFU priorities/incompetence.

One factor has always puzzled me, in regard to age/seniority of players, linked with the Saracens issues. It is Itoje. Why has he never been given the England captaincy? Why is he running himself ragged without the purpose/dominance of his earlier career? Why does he seem to be the least influential of the Saracens group?

Itoje's change from firebrand in your face lock to glue is an indictment of England's failures, in my opinion. One of our best players, and potentially our only world class player, is consistently doing the work of two or three to try and salvage something from the game. He's not used in a way to get impact out of him, as he is one of the only players capable of prolonged and sustained excellence at the meat and potatoes of rugby.

That our best player is the only one capable of doing the basics right is absolutely incredible. In my mind, if you have one or two truly world class players, you pick the rest of the team to help them shine, to do all that dirty work for them so that they can be the best player they can be.

For all the talk - and I am one of them - of Itoje consistently being our best player, and to get off his back, the truth is, we are not getting the most out of him, and that is a team failure, not his. He works so damn hard every game, to no avail usually.

It's like he has to be at every single ruck, as if it's anyone else there, the ruck will be lost. Now that's going to take a lot out of a player.

[Banquo]

Apropos of nothing much...our RWC final team in 2019 was the youngest ever (according to the Grauniad). Which is food for thought.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/ ... yI5HvX6R7A

A few things come out of that article in confirmation, anyway. Influence/corruption/Saracens issues (one way or another) caused Jones to get far longer in the job than was good for English rugby. Missing out on Edwards (possibly with A Farrell) and ending up with SB rather sums up RFU priorities/incompetence.

One factor has always puzzled me, in regard to age/seniority of players, linked with the Saracens issues. It is Itoje. Why has he never been given the England captaincy? Why is he running himself ragged without the purpose/dominance of his earlier career? Why does he seem to be the least influential of the Saracens group?

Itoje's change from firebrand in your face lock to glue is an indictment of England's failures, in my opinion. One of our best players, and potentially our only world class player, is consistently doing the work of two or three to try and salvage something from the game. He's not used in a way to get impact out of him, as he is one of the only players capable of prolonged and sustained excellence at the meat and potatoes of rugby.

That our best player is the only one capable of doing the basics right is absolutely incredible. In my mind, if you have one or two truly world class players, you pick the rest of the team to help them shine, to do all that dirty work for them so that they can be the best player they can be.

For all the talk - and I am one of them - of Itoje consistently being our best player, and to get off his back, the truth is, we are not getting the most out of him, and that is a team failure, not his. He works so damn hard every game, to no avail usually.

It's like he has to be at every single ruck, as if it's anyone else there, the ruck will be lost. Now that's going to take a lot out of a player.

Spot on, well said. You also can't expect spectacular interventions when he is being flogged to death- if you know you are on for 80, then there's an element of pacing yourself as well.

[p/d]

over rated show pony.......

[Oakboy]

A few things come out of that article in confirmation, anyway. Influence/corruption/Saracens issues (one way or another) caused Jones to get far longer in the job than was good for English rugby. Missing out on Edwards (possibly with A Farrell) and ending up with SB rather sums up RFU priorities/incompetence.

One factor has always puzzled me, in regard to age/seniority of players, linked with the Saracens issues. It is Itoje. Why has he never been given the England captaincy? Why is he running himself ragged without the purpose/dominance of his earlier career? Why does he seem to be the least influential of the Saracens group?

Itoje's change from firebrand in your face lock to glue is an indictment of England's failures, in my opinion. One of our best players, and potentially our only world class player, is consistently doing the work of two or three to try and salvage something from the game. He's not used in a way to get impact out of him, as he is one of the only players capable of prolonged and sustained excellence at the meat and potatoes of rugby.

That our best player is the only one capable of doing the basics right is absolutely incredible. In my mind, if you have one or two truly world class players, you pick the rest of the team to help them shine, to do all that dirty work for them so that they can be the best player they can be.

For all the talk - and I am one of them - of Itoje consistently being our best player, and to get off his back, the truth is, we are not getting the most out of him, and that is a team failure, not his. He works so damn hard every game, to no avail usually.

It's like he has to be at every single ruck, as if it's anyone else there, the ruck will be lost. Now that's going to take a lot out of a player.

Spot on, well said. You also can't expect spectacular interventions when he is being flogged to death- if you know you are on for 80, then there's an element of pacing yourself as well.

Itoje seems to me to be a bright bloke with lots of character. So, why does he accept being used badly? And, why, in general terms is he not more influential? I completely agree about his status as our most important player. If he were to be injured/unavailable his absence would be mega-significant - quite a contrast to OF or BV, for example.

If I was SB, I'd have made him captain immediately and let him rule the roost.

[Mellsblue]

Itoje's change from firebrand in your face lock to glue is an indictment of England's failures, in my opinion. One of our best players, and potentially our only world class player, is consistently doing the work of two or three to try and salvage something from the game. He's not used in a way to get impact out of him, as he is one of the only players capable of prolonged and sustained excellence at the meat and potatoes of rugby.

That our best player is the only one capable of doing the basics right is absolutely incredible. In my mind, if you have one or two truly world class players, you pick the rest of the team to help them shine, to do all that dirty work for them so that they can be the best player they can be.

For all the talk - and I am one of them - of Itoje consistently being our best player, and to get off his back, the truth is, we are not getting the most out of him, and that is a team failure, not his. He works so damn hard every game, to no avail usually.

It's like he has to be at every single ruck, as if it's anyone else there, the ruck will be lost. Now that's going to take a lot out of a player.

Spot on, well said. You also can't expect spectacular interventions when he is being flogged to death- if you know you are on for 80, then there's an element of pacing yourself as well.

So, why does he accept being used badly?

What would you suggest he does?

[p/d]

At every opportunity kick for touch

[p/d]

Could it be that he is not a great communicator, keeps himself to himself, happy just focusing on his game whilst more concerned with why Rich LANE didn’t kick on after 2019 than orchestrating team tactics etc.

[Mellsblue]

Could it be that he is not a great communicator, keeps himself to himself, happy just focusing on his game whilst more concerned with why Rich LANE didn’t kick on after 2019 than orchestrating team tactics etc.

I thought it was accepted that it was due to a World Rugby conspiracy to avoid an England win at the World Cup being a forgone conclusion, obvs.

[FKAS]

Could it be that he is not a great communicator, keeps himself to himself, happy just focusing on his game whilst more concerned with why Rich LANE didn’t kick on after 2019 than orchestrating team tactics etc.

I thought it was accepted that it was due to a World Rugby conspiracy to avoid an England win at the World Cup being a forgone conclusion, obvs.

I presumed that RICH LANE!!! Wasn't allowed to play because that sort of talent on the international stage would make a mockery of the world cup competition.

[p/d]

Could it be that he is not a great communicator, keeps himself to himself, happy just focusing on his game whilst more concerned with why Rich LANE didn’t kick on after 2019 than orchestrating team tactics etc.

I thought it was accepted that it was due to a World Rugby conspiracy to avoid an England win at the World Cup being a forgone conclusion, obvs.

Can’t believe that slipped my mind!!
I feel quite the fool.

[p/d]

Anyhoo. Back to captaincy and Ben Earl

[Puja]

Speaking of not a great communicator, has anyone read any of the excerpts of Danny Cipriani's autobiography in the papers recently? I don't know whether he's just chosen poorly in the bits to give to the papers and the rest is fine, but he really does come off as a grade-A bell-end with a chip on his shoulder the size of Manchester. Every bit I've seen so far has been him complaining about someone and how rubbish they were - doesn't appear to have a good word to say for anyone, with the exception of Sam Burgess, of wife-beating and running-away-and-stitching-up-Bath-and-Mike-Ford-because-it-got-hard fame.

Puja

[Eugene Wrayburn]

Speaking of not a great communicator, has anyone read any of the excerpts of Danny Cipriani's autobiography in the papers recently? I don't know whether he's just chosen poorly in the bits to give to the papers and the rest is fine, but he really does come off as a grade-A bell-end with a chip on his shoulder the size of Manchester. Every bit I've seen so far has been him complaining about someone and how rubbish they were - doesn't appear to have a good word to say for anyone, with the exception of Sam Burgess, of wife-beating and running-away-and-stitching-up-Bath-and-Mike-Ford-because-it-got-hard fame.

Puja

The subject of autobiographies don't choose what is serialised and the papers understandably choose the most sensational pieces. "X is rubbish" is always more newsworthy than "a load of people did a difficult job moderately well"

[Mikey Brown]

Speaking of not a great communicator, has anyone read any of the excerpts of Danny Cipriani's autobiography in the papers recently? I don't know whether he's just chosen poorly in the bits to give to the papers and the rest is fine, but he really does come off as a grade-A bell-end with a chip on his shoulder the size of Manchester. Every bit I've seen so far has been him complaining about someone and how rubbish they were - doesn't appear to have a good word to say for anyone, with the exception of Sam Burgess, of wife-beating and running-away-and-stitching-up-Bath-and-Mike-Ford-because-it-got-hard fame.

Puja

I haven’t read any of the recent stuff, but saw him interviewed on the offload podcast last year and thought he seemed very measured and thoughtful in the way he talked about the game.

I have no idea how accurate that is in general, but incendiary sound bites don’t often seem to tell much of a story.

Anything particularly relevant or interesting in there beyond saying Eddie was a twat?

[Eugene Wrayburn]

Apropos of nothing much...our RWC final team in 2019 was the youngest ever (according to the Grauniad). Which is food for thought.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/ ... yI5HvX6R7A

A truly weird article. Covid, and the financial issues it caused, did not only happen to England or even mainly to England. and there's a distinct lack of "why" in the explanation.