England vs Argentina

[Sandydragon]

After last night’s game, Shining Balls must know that Ford/Tuilagi /Marchant should be inked in for the big games coming up and pick Captain Farrell for the lesser opposition? It’d be a travesty if Ford were to make way for him come the knockout stages and we certainly don’t want to see him at 12.

Fair play, a good performance by England who comfortably beat what was in front of them.

But Ford was critical to that. After the sending off he kept his head and banged over those three drop goals which I think contributed hugely to Argentina self destructing. Argentina are a better team than that but mentally they were fall at sea. I don’t think Farrell would have taken charge like that, he’s more likely to have lost his head and done something daft.

[Banquo]

Has there been any mention of a referee in camp? How many lessons will have to be learned before our players avoid head contact? Debating red/yellow matters not a jot. The fact is that camera coverage always catches the incidents. To have players continue to err after one red card is disappointing, but a 2nd and a 3rd? The coaches need to sort it out especially now that we've got this vital win.

Players excelled in diversity and points were made by several that I doubted. Provided that SB does not cock things up from here, our potential ceiling for the tournament just got raised.

I think Curry was plain unlucky- I don’t even think had he been match fit and alert it would have made a difference.

[Banquo]

[float=]

. Long time since I’ve seen a ref give so many decisions to England. .

Watching in the pub we came to the conclusion that he'd realised that the bunker had screwed us on the Argie yellow and was making up for it.

I got the impression he knew Curry was going to get red and thought it was unlucky so was a bit sympathetic to us. Argentina getting frustrated quite quickly only helped us as well.

I thought I heard him say he agreed with the red over the mike, but could be wrong.

[Scrumhead]

Without wanting to make generalisations, I do think Argentina are an emotional team now led by a very emotional coach. When emotion like that is channelled in the right way it can be an asset, but it can also be an Achilles Heel as we saw last night. Once Argentina are rattled, history suggests that they don’t have the composure to come back from it.

Raynal possibly helped us a bit, but I don’t recall any of the decisions being overly contentious. IIRC, those that led to points on the board for England were all stonewall penalties.

[Banquo]

Btw- Fords drop from the half way line was pretty decent.

[Oakboy]

Has there been any mention of a referee in camp? How many lessons will have to be learned before our players avoid head contact? Debating red/yellow matters not a jot. The fact is that camera coverage always catches the incidents. To have players continue to err after one red card is disappointing, but a 2nd and a 3rd? The coaches need to sort it out especially now that we've got this vital win.

Players excelled in diversity and points were made by several that I doubted. Provided that SB does not cock things up from here, our potential ceiling for the tournament just got raised.

I think Curry was plain unlucky- I don’t even think had he been match fit and alert it would have made a difference.

I understand why you say that but it's no excuse. Call it what you like but the players need to be taking positive steps to avoid being 'plain unlucky'. My first reaction in real time was that both players contributed to an unfortunate clash of heads but that type of incident is not judged that way any more. The plain truth is that players now cannot risk such clashes in case they are carded. If it means backing off and not tackling so be it. You/I/we can argue about whether that should be so or whether luck contributed but players have to avoid putting their bodies in bad positions.

[Stom]

I said during the game that having Marchant was a god send, and I'm going to stick by that. Not for his attack, but for his awareness in defence.

We squeezed Argentina every time they got the ball. Granted, they were absolutely awful at getting the ball wide, but our midfield has to take a lot of praise for that: they did shut off the space well.

Earl had a drastic improvement second half, in my eyes. He grew into the game, so well done.

Ford ran the show, though: he was the one directing the whole thing, just as your FH should. The absolute performance, and if after that we go back to Farrell...the coaching team need firing. Ford is our FH, end of discussion.

Also, because Argentina did not go wide, Lawes had a great game. He loves it just one out from tight.

Oh, and Itoje was immense. He was everywhere, and was absolutely shattered at the end.

[Banquo]

Has there been any mention of a referee in camp? How many lessons will have to be learned before our players avoid head contact? Debating red/yellow matters not a jot. The fact is that camera coverage always catches the incidents. To have players continue to err after one red card is disappointing, but a 2nd and a 3rd? The coaches need to sort it out especially now that we've got this vital win.

Players excelled in diversity and points were made by several that I doubted. Provided that SB does not cock things up from here, our potential ceiling for the tournament just got raised.

I think Curry was plain unlucky- I don’t even think had he been match fit and alert it would have made a difference.

I understand why you say that but it's no excuse. Call it what you like but the players need to be taking positive steps to avoid being 'plain unlucky'. My first reaction in real time was that both players contributed to an unfortunate clash of heads but that type of incident is not judged that way any more. The plain truth is that players now cannot risk such clashes in case they are carded. If it means backing off and not tackling so be it. You/I/we can argue about whether that should be so or whether luck contributed but players have to avoid putting their bodies in bad positions.

I agree that ideally all players would be running round crouched (only half joking).

Curry had a microsecond to react. He was unlucky. The only way you will stop what is clearly a rugby accident (compared to piss poor technique of Farrell and Vunipola) is just to stop competing hard tbh.

[Banquo]

I said during the game that having Marchant was a god send, and I'm going to stick by that. Not for his attack, but for his awareness in defence.

We squeezed Argentina every time they got the ball. Granted, they were absolutely awful at getting the ball wide, but our midfield has to take a lot of praise for that: they did shut off the space well.

Earl had a drastic improvement second half, in my eyes. He grew into the game, so well done.

Ford ran the show, though: he was the one directing the whole thing, just as your FH should. The absolute performance, and if after that we go back to Farrell...the coaching team need firing. Ford is our FH, end of discussion.

Also, because Argentina did not go wide, Lawes had a great game. He loves it just one out from tight.

Oh, and Itoje was immense. He was everywhere, and was absolutely shattered at the end.

Itoje is pretty much always immense- his all round positional skills are superb if you take time to really see them.

[Mellsblue]

I think Curry was plain unlucky- I don’t even think had he been match fit and alert it would have made a difference.

I understand why you say that but it's no excuse. Call it what you like but the players need to be taking positive steps to avoid being 'plain unlucky'. My first reaction in real time was that both players contributed to an unfortunate clash of heads but that type of incident is not judged that way any more. The plain truth is that players now cannot risk such clashes in case they are carded. If it means backing off and not tackling so be it. You/I/we can argue about whether that should be so or whether luck contributed but players have to avoid putting their bodies in bad positions.

I agree that ideally all players would be running round crouched (only half joking).

Curry had a microsecond to react. He was unlucky. The only way you will stop what is clearly a rugby accident (compared to piss poor technique of Farrell and Vunipola) is just to stop competing hard tbh.

Yep. Curry being unlucky vs Farrell being a knob and Billy being stupid is the point.

[FKAS]

After last night’s game, Shining Balls must know that Ford/Tuilagi /Marchant should be inked in for the big games coming up and pick Captain Farrell for the lesser opposition? It’d be a travesty if Ford were to make way for him come the knockout stages and we certainly don’t want to see him at 12.

That midfield should be starting the remaining games. They need as much time together as possible to try and help them click on attack. We can sub off Ford and Manu when we are in a comfortable position. Farrell can bench or keep his spot in the stands.

I'll be interested to see what Silver Balls does with the bench. He loaded it up for work rate and physicality for the Pumas. May we see a bit more attacking intent? Perhaps Rodd or Ribbans to come in and offer more mobility if we're going to chase tries and bonus points.

[Stom]

I think Curry was plain unlucky- I don’t even think had he been match fit and alert it would have made a difference.

I understand why you say that but it's no excuse. Call it what you like but the players need to be taking positive steps to avoid being 'plain unlucky'. My first reaction in real time was that both players contributed to an unfortunate clash of heads but that type of incident is not judged that way any more. The plain truth is that players now cannot risk such clashes in case they are carded. If it means backing off and not tackling so be it. You/I/we can argue about whether that should be so or whether luck contributed but players have to avoid putting their bodies in bad positions.

I agree that ideally all players would be running round crouched (only half joking).

Curry had a microsecond to react. He was unlucky. The only way you will stop what is clearly a rugby accident (compared to piss poor technique of Farrell and Vunipola) is just to stop competing hard tbh.

I agree with Banquo, it was unlucky. It was 'reckless' and he was more upright than he should have been, but it is a very hard technique to judge a player coming down from so high.

[Stom]

I said during the game that having Marchant was a god send, and I'm going to stick by that. Not for his attack, but for his awareness in defence.

We squeezed Argentina every time they got the ball. Granted, they were absolutely awful at getting the ball wide, but our midfield has to take a lot of praise for that: they did shut off the space well.

Earl had a drastic improvement second half, in my eyes. He grew into the game, so well done.

Ford ran the show, though: he was the one directing the whole thing, just as your FH should. The absolute performance, and if after that we go back to Farrell...the coaching team need firing. Ford is our FH, end of discussion.

Also, because Argentina did not go wide, Lawes had a great game. He loves it just one out from tight.

Oh, and Itoje was immense. He was everywhere, and was absolutely shattered at the end.

Itoje is pretty much always immense- his all round positional skills are superb if you take time to really see them.

He just has great rugby intelligence. Him, Ford, George, and Marchant all share that ability to know where to be and when, and what to do when. The thing that separates the others from Marchant is the skill to consistently execute. But I would still pick those four and fill in the gaps.

[Shiny]

If I was scrumpy candlestick I would sit Mr (Sir) Ford down and ask him who who wanted to play with at 8, 9, 12 and 13 and give him them as the next selection. He is the backs coach in all but name after all.

Unfortunately little Owen will be whining in his ear………

[FKAS]

I understand why you say that but it's no excuse. Call it what you like but the players need to be taking positive steps to avoid being 'plain unlucky'. My first reaction in real time was that both players contributed to an unfortunate clash of heads but that type of incident is not judged that way any more. The plain truth is that players now cannot risk such clashes in case they are carded. If it means backing off and not tackling so be it. You/I/we can argue about whether that should be so or whether luck contributed but players have to avoid putting their bodies in bad positions.

I agree that ideally all players would be running round crouched (only half joking).

Curry had a microsecond to react. He was unlucky. The only way you will stop what is clearly a rugby accident (compared to piss poor technique of Farrell and Vunipola) is just to stop competing hard tbh.

I agree with Banquo, it was unlucky. It was 'reckless' and he was more upright than he should have been, but it is a very hard technique to judge a player coming down from so high.

The other thing is if you bend at the hips it's going to be difficult to look up and see where the player is which runs the risk of taking them in the air. Tough position to be in.

[Which Tyler]

Well played England, Ford and Lawes especially, honourable mentions for Itoje, Earl, Mitchel and Tuilagi [:o].


Red card that early, you have to play low-energy rugby, and you have to execute impeccably - which we mostly did. We kept the score-board ticking over, didn't waste any exertion banging away at the line for phase after phase searching for a try, just get deep into the Arg. half, and take the points.

After the card, we calmed down, and tightened up, actually looked fired up for the first time in 4 years!

Established parity through controlled aggression, established that we could threaten the score board from our own half (even if Daly was missing them - it still changes behaviour), then towards the end of the first half, we knocked Arg. on their arses and left them shell-shocked


3 from a drop goals is a much heavier psychological blow than 3 from a penalty. With a penalty, you can improve your discipline and not give any more chances; with a drop goal, especially from near-enough the halfway line, there's just nothing you can do about it. On the receiving end, it almost feels like cheating (as we remember from 1999). It's a hell of a skill, and he executed perfectly.


Confidence will be riding high throughout the squad off the back of that - whether we can harness that, and continue to play with such cohesion, only time will tell - again, Borthwick seems like the wrong person to try, but this should be Sinfield's bag all the way.

We'll (probably) need to show more than this to get past the QFs, and a LOT more to get past a SF; but it's just about possible that that performance will galvanise us, everything starts clicking in training, we shift from thinking that we can do it, to knowing that we can do it.

I'm personally back to where I was ahead of the warm-ups - QF is par for this England, and we're not very good, but we're better than we've been showing, and we might, just might, be able to outperform our recent past.


In addition, that was far more of an iceman performance than Farrell has ever shown for England.

[Banquo]

After last night’s game, Shining Balls must know that Ford/Tuilagi /Marchant should be inked in for the big games coming up and pick Captain Farrell for the lesser opposition? It’d be a travesty if Ford were to make way for him come the knockout stages and we certainly don’t want to see him at 12.

That midfield should be starting the remaining games. They need as much time together as possible to try and help them click on attack. We can sub off Ford and Manu when we are in a comfortable position. Farrell can bench or keep his spot in the stands.

I'll be interested to see what Silver Balls does with the bench. He loaded it up for work rate and physicality for the Pumas. May we see a bit more attacking intent? Perhaps Rodd or Ribbans to come in and offer more mobility if we're going to chase tries and bonus points.

Who does Ribbans replace to offer more mobility out of interest?

I agree on the midfield, the wings need a look, but he's a bit boxed in there. Back row will be interesting if Curry gets a ban.

[Banquo]

I agree that ideally all players would be running round crouched (only half joking).

Curry had a microsecond to react. He was unlucky. The only way you will stop what is clearly a rugby accident (compared to piss poor technique of Farrell and Vunipola) is just to stop competing hard tbh.

I agree with Banquo, it was unlucky. It was 'reckless' and he was more upright than he should have been, but it is a very hard technique to judge a player coming down from so high.

The other thing is if you bend at the hips it's going to be difficult to look up and see where the player is which runs the risk of taking them in the air. Tough position to be in.

Exactly- if he is bent and not looking up, the player maybe lands on him. Incidentally, I thought Mallia's shoulder hit Curry in the face on the way down...

[Stom]

After last night’s game, Shining Balls must know that Ford/Tuilagi /Marchant should be inked in for the big games coming up and pick Captain Farrell for the lesser opposition? It’d be a travesty if Ford were to make way for him come the knockout stages and we certainly don’t want to see him at 12.

That midfield should be starting the remaining games. They need as much time together as possible to try and help them click on attack. We can sub off Ford and Manu when we are in a comfortable position. Farrell can bench or keep his spot in the stands.

I'll be interested to see what Silver Balls does with the bench. He loaded it up for work rate and physicality for the Pumas. May we see a bit more attacking intent? Perhaps Rodd or Ribbans to come in and offer more mobility if we're going to chase tries and bonus points.

Who does Ribbans replace to offer more mobility out of interest?

I agree on the midfield, the wings need a look, but he's a bit boxed in there. Back row will be interesting if Curry gets a ban.

If we're defending narrow - which we should be, to give our pack the best chance - then Malins instead of May could be a good shout. He's not a great one on one defender, but May looked a little lost in general, for me, and Malins does have the ability to support extremely well.

If Curry is banned, surely Willis comes in.

I also agree that Ribbans doesn't get in, except against Chile and maybe Samoa when Itoje gets to put his feet up.

[Oakboy]

I understand why you say that but it's no excuse. Call it what you like but the players need to be taking positive steps to avoid being 'plain unlucky'. My first reaction in real time was that both players contributed to an unfortunate clash of heads but that type of incident is not judged that way any more. The plain truth is that players now cannot risk such clashes in case they are carded. If it means backing off and not tackling so be it. You/I/we can argue about whether that should be so or whether luck contributed but players have to avoid putting their bodies in bad positions.

I agree that ideally all players would be running round crouched (only half joking).

Curry had a microsecond to react. He was unlucky. The only way you will stop what is clearly a rugby accident (compared to piss poor technique of Farrell and Vunipola) is just to stop competing hard tbh.

I agree with Banquo, it was unlucky. It was 'reckless' and he was more upright than he should have been, but it is a very hard technique to judge a player coming down from so high.

But, if 'unlucky' gets you sent off you have to re-programme your behaviour to avoid being unlucky. I agree Curry was unlucky but he was over-hyped and not composed. 'Opponent going up to catch the ball' = warning bell. 'Opponent possibly dipping into me' = warning bell etc. Thinking any other way = card. Liking/disliking that matters not a bit. Playing the 80 minutes does.

[Banquo]

Well played England, Ford and Lawes especially, honourable mentions for Itoje, Earl, Mitchel and Tuilagi ().


Red card that early, you have to play low-energy rugby, and you have to execute impeccably - which we mostly did. We kept the score-board ticking over, didn't waste any exertion banging away at the line for phase after phase searching for a try, just get deep into the Arg. half, and take the points.

After the card, we calmed down, and tightened up, actually looked fired up for the first time in 4 years!

Established parity through controlled aggression, established that we could threaten the score board from our own half (even if Daly was missing them - it still changes behaviour), then towards the end of the first half, we knocked Arg. on their arses (psychologically)


Drop Goals are a much heavier blow than 3 from a penalty. With a penalty, you can improve your discipline and not give any more chances; with a drop goal, especially from near-enough the halfway line, there's just nothing you can do about it. On the receiving end, it almost feels like cheating (as we remember from 1999). It's a hell of a skill, and he executed perfectly.


Confidence will be riding high throughout the squad off the back of that - whether we can harness that, and continue to play with such cohesion, only time will tell - again, Borthwick seems like the wrong person to try, but this should be Sinfield's bag all the way.

We'll (probably) need to show more than this to get past the QFs, and a LOT more to get past a SF; but it's just about possible that that performance will galvanise us, everything starts clicking in training, we shift from thinking that we can do it, to knowing that we can do it.

I'm personally back to where I was ahead of the warm-ups - QF is par for this England, and we're not very good, but we're better than we've been showing, and we might, just might, be able to outperform our recent past.


In addition, that was far more of an iceman performance than Farrell has ever shown for England.

Yup- there is also a bit of irony that despite kicking the leather off it we actually lost the territory battle yet took points every time we were close enough to, give or take.

(For all the great stuff- there was one really disappointung moment from a turnover in the 1st half, we had a 5 on 2 about 35 yards out, 5 backs at that....and utterly fckd it. Ran a bit sideways, Ford threw an unnecessary miss pass, Marchant and Daly got it wrong between them and May was baffled and then gave away daft pen holding onto a dead ball.)

[FKAS]

After last night’s game, Shining Balls must know that Ford/Tuilagi /Marchant should be inked in for the big games coming up and pick Captain Farrell for the lesser opposition? It’d be a travesty if Ford were to make way for him come the knockout stages and we certainly don’t want to see him at 12.

That midfield should be starting the remaining games. They need as much time together as possible to try and help them click on attack. We can sub off Ford and Manu when we are in a comfortable position. Farrell can bench or keep his spot in the stands.

I'll be interested to see what Silver Balls does with the bench. He loaded it up for work rate and physicality for the Pumas. May we see a bit more attacking intent? Perhaps Rodd or Ribbans to come in and offer more mobility if we're going to chase tries and bonus points.

Who does Ribbans replace to offer more mobility out of interest?

I agree on the midfield, the wings need a look, but he's a bit boxed in there. Back row will be interesting if Curry gets a ban.

I was thinking Ribbans might add more carrying and offloading threat from the bench in place of Martin. Martin will tackle all day but he hasn't brought his club carrying game to international rugby yet and isn't really knock for offloads. You'd have Martin on the bench for Japan and the knock out stages but maybe give the team a little more carrying for Chile and Samoa.

[Banquo]

I agree that ideally all players would be running round crouched (only half joking).

Curry had a microsecond to react. He was unlucky. The only way you will stop what is clearly a rugby accident (compared to piss poor technique of Farrell and Vunipola) is just to stop competing hard tbh.

I agree with Banquo, it was unlucky. It was 'reckless' and he was more upright than he should have been, but it is a very hard technique to judge a player coming down from so high.

he was over-hyped and not composed.

I think that's conjecture and wrong.
He was running towards where the ball was likely to be fielded. He was unlucky to be red carded for a rugby incident- the comparison with Faz and Billy is a wrong one btw. The way you are headed is effectively uncontested kick chases.

[Banquo]

That midfield should be starting the remaining games. They need as much time together as possible to try and help them click on attack. We can sub off Ford and Manu when we are in a comfortable position. Farrell can bench or keep his spot in the stands.

I'll be interested to see what Silver Balls does with the bench. He loaded it up for work rate and physicality for the Pumas. May we see a bit more attacking intent? Perhaps Rodd or Ribbans to come in and offer more mobility if we're going to chase tries and bonus points.

Who does Ribbans replace to offer more mobility out of interest?

I agree on the midfield, the wings need a look, but he's a bit boxed in there. Back row will be interesting if Curry gets a ban.

If we're defending narrow - which we should be, to give our pack the best chance - then Malins instead of May could be a good shout. He's not a great one on one defender, but May looked a little lost in general, for me, and Malins does have the ability to support extremely well.

If Curry is banned, surely Willis comes in.

I also agree that Ribbans doesn't get in, except against Chile and maybe Samoa when Itoje gets to put his feet up.

Malins is just so meh, but so was Johnny (and Daly). Thin gruel on the wings tbh.
Wouldn't be surprised if Ludlam got that nod.

[FKAS]

That midfield should be starting the remaining games. They need as much time together as possible to try and help them click on attack. We can sub off Ford and Manu when we are in a comfortable position. Farrell can bench or keep his spot in the stands.

I'll be interested to see what Silver Balls does with the bench. He loaded it up for work rate and physicality for the Pumas. May we see a bit more attacking intent? Perhaps Rodd or Ribbans to come in and offer more mobility if we're going to chase tries and bonus points.

Who does Ribbans replace to offer more mobility out of interest?

I agree on the midfield, the wings need a look, but he's a bit boxed in there. Back row will be interesting if Curry gets a ban.

If we're defending narrow - which we should be, to give our pack the best chance - then Malins instead of May could be a good shout.

That's a hard nope. May is a far better kick chasing option and a better finisher. May is also quicker so when we are drifting out wide to cover he'd be better equipped to get across than Malins.

Malins really only becomes a more viable option if England are going to use him as a secondary playmaker.