England vs Argentina

[Puja]

Probably the collective shock that the attack was actually working. I think we could have largely rescued the situation had Daly not forced the last pass and just taken the ball in and recycled. We were in the Puma 22 and had momentum. There's was something similar later in the game when we tried to force the move rather than just take the territory and momentum and go again.

Oh, we're hideously impatient. As shown by all the bloody kicks by Earl. It's like we must do the attack in one phase or it's over.

It must be confusing getting told to play 8 and use your pace, then every time you make a break off a scrum all your team mates just evaporate.

Terrible kick though nonetheless.

Probably more confusing being the right wing on his shoulder screaming for the ball and then having to chase a kick through like your number 8's been possessed by Owen Farrell.

Puja

[morepork]

The Curse of Farrell. I like it. Like a mummified Northern zombie that eats brains.

[Puja]

Probably the collective shock that the attack was actually working. I think we could have largely rescued the situation had Daly not forced the last pass and just taken the ball in and recycled. We were in the Puma 22 and had momentum. There's was something similar later in the game when we tried to force the move rather than just take the territory and momentum and go again.

Oh, we're hideously impatient. As shown by all the bloody kicks by Earl. It's like we must do the attack in one phase or it's over.

It must be confusing getting told to play 8 and use your pace, then every time you make a break off a scrum all your team mates just evaporate.

Terrible kick though nonetheless.

The worst/most entertaining moment of the game for me was just before Ford's first drop goal. Mitchell made a little jinky break off the base of a ruck, looked outside for the forward runner that would've been there for Northampton, only to find no-one there and have a moment of confusion before settling for a pass to Ellis Genge, who was standing still 3m back and half-heartedly offering himself for a carry.

Hopefully that's been pulled up in Monday video analysis and the lesson learned has been telling the forwards "FFS, get on Alex's shoulder!" rather than telling Mitchell, "Alex, why do you still have hope?"

Puja

[FKAS]

Oh, we're hideously impatient. As shown by all the bloody kicks by Earl. It's like we must do the attack in one phase or it's over.

It must be confusing getting told to play 8 and use your pace, then every time you make a break off a scrum all your team mates just evaporate.

Terrible kick though nonetheless.

The worst/most entertaining moment of the game for me was just before Ford's first drop goal. Mitchell made a little jinky break off the base of a ruck, looked outside for the forward runner that would've been there for Northampton, only to find no-one there and have a moment of confusion before settling for a pass to Ellis Genge, who was standing still 3m back and half-heartedly offering himself for a carry.

Hopefully that's been pulled up in Monday video analysis and the lesson learned has been telling the forwards "FFS, get on Alex's shoulder!" rather than telling Mitchell, "Alex, why do you still have hope?"

Puja

Kind of where you'd want your openside to be...

Given our inability to break the line generally it might be a little understandable that no one chanced running the support line.

[Puja]

It must be confusing getting told to play 8 and use your pace, then every time you make a break off a scrum all your team mates just evaporate.

Terrible kick though nonetheless.

The worst/most entertaining moment of the game for me was just before Ford's first drop goal. Mitchell made a little jinky break off the base of a ruck, looked outside for the forward runner that would've been there for Northampton, only to find no-one there and have a moment of confusion before settling for a pass to Ellis Genge, who was standing still 3m back and half-heartedly offering himself for a carry.

Hopefully that's been pulled up in Monday video analysis and the lesson learned has been telling the forwards "FFS, get on Alex's shoulder!" rather than telling Mitchell, "Alex, why do you still have hope?"

Puja

Kind of where you'd want your openside to be...

Given our inability to break the line generally it might be a little understandable that no one chanced running the support line.

Good point; well made

Puja

[Puja]

(I will watch it back- only saw it once plus replay)

Same, so I reserve the right to be wrong too. Can't seem to find it on any of the highlights - if you find a video of it online, please do share.

Puja

Just watched it back on the old Sky Q.

George passes well to Ford off a turnover, Ford has four men outside him, and two argentinian defenders in his field of vision. There is another Argentinian defender 'inside' him, to his left who shouldn't be even in consideration. Ford is quite slow to assess imo, accelerating a bit after he has taken it, and runs fractionally sideways before an early miss pass; his running line and timing of pass fail to fix either the inside defender (who can then run behind on a covering line) nor the original first defender who just drifts out with his fellow defender; 5 on 2 becomes 3 on 2 with covering defender now in the mix, and defenders sliding across. Marchant is still some way from the defenders and does straighten the line up....but you are right he botched the pass, because Daly was deep enough for not to be at his body, he slows, defence have drifted and that's that. Ford should have set it up better imo, straightened, not miss passed, or miss pass a fraction later....but Marchant should also have done better.

Charlie Morgan covered it in his article: www.12ft.io/https://www.telegraph.co.uk ... k-tactics/



I think you're being a touch harsh on Ford with your description - Ford's got to run with the ball to engage the Argentine 13 and I don't see much wrong with his pass. Yes, he could've passed to Manu, but I don't know I trust Manu to improve that situation and would rather the ball got to Marchant early for a 3-on-2 rather than trust Manu not to bollix up a 4-on-2. Don't think many people covered themselves in glory tbh - Manu could've looked like a running threat to fix the Argentine defence, Ford could've held onto the ball a bit longer to fix them, Marchant demonstrates clog-hands to screw up the pass to Daly, Daly refuses to believe the dream is dead and, instead of holding onto the ball and recycling, forces May into touch, and then May gives up a stupid penalty for not releasing the ball.

The real theme of that article is that May got screwed by all and sundry. He was on the outside with a chance of a break for both of Earl's KADABs, he was on the outside for the above clusterfuck, and he was on the outside with loads of room when Marchant decided to carry it up instead (and then he plays 10 on the next phase to put Marchant away into the same gap he was deprived of himself!).

Hopefully we've been working this week on minor, marginal, 1 percenters like 'passing the ball good'.

Puja

[p/d]

Manu needed to be tighter to Ford to take the pass and hit the gap between 11 &13 before getting the ball away behind them to Daly.
Marchant is the one player who shouldn’t have got the ball.

I blame Earl

[Mikey Brown]

Manu needed to be tighter to Ford to take the pass and hit the gap between 11 &13 before getting the ball away behind them to Daly.
Marchant is the one player who shouldn’t have got the ball.

I blame Earl

Yep. This is the only logical response.

That actually looks worse from Ford than I remember that moment. Marchant looks surprised to realise there’s a lot of defenders drifting and just sort of flings it.

As ever the change of camera angle just as the action unfolds makes it a bit harder to judge.

[Mellsblue]

Agreed. Ford definitely needs to pass to Manu so he can engage the edge defender and Manu needs to be flatter - ironic given I spent last night telling the local u14 backs to get deeper. I rate Ford highly but he fecks that one up, imo.

[FKAS]

I agree with Puja. Passing to Manu doesn't help the situation, he's too deep and to wide. There's plenty of inside cover coming across so the ball needs to get to space quickly. If Manu was tighter to Ford and flatter then he'd have held the defence as a possible crash option but he's in no man's land a bit there.

Marchant's pass is poor and then Daly shovels shite to May instead of just taking the metres and recycling with all the momentum.

[p/d]

I agree with Puja. Passing to Manu doesn't help the situation, he's too deep and to wide. There's plenty of inside cover coming across so the ball needs to get to space quickly. If Manu was tighter to Ford and flatter then he'd have held the defence as a possible crash option but he's in no man's land a bit there.

Marchant's pass is poor and then Daly shovels shite to May instead of just taking the metres and recycling with all the momentum.

But isn’t that what we said. I still think there is blame to be shared by all involved - as much as we hate criticising Ford.

Though Earl needs to shoulder some of it

[Which Tyler]

At first I thought Ford went too lateral - but he's still rounding the 7.
He probably should have kept the ball another pace or so, to make one of 13 / 10 commit to tackling him. which would mean passing right with his right foot planted, so a less clean pass. The speed that 10 is coming in, I'm not sure he has another 2 paces. I feel he should have done better, but I can see he didn't. I think he's tried to commit the 10, but Carreras does a good job at rushing up without committing.
He could have passed longer, straight to May, but with his current pace, I think we'd be castigating Ford for turning a 4 on 3 to a 1 on 3.
He could also have got the ball out to Manu/Marchant earlier -but the camera angles make it hard to say for sure.
Might even be an option of the kick in behind for Daly to run on to - but I'm not sure when the opportunity gets there to actually that in; too many legs in the way for a grubber, and would need to be kicked before the 10 rushes at GF; any hesitation to chip and the 7 collars him.

Manu's mistake is the worst (bar May) IMO, he needs to be flatter, and cutting a line against the grain to hold a defender (basically, running directly at the 10), the way the Argentines are approaching there, I'd say that if he's running that line, he'd interest 2 defenders, leaving a 3 on 1 with a little space to operate in. As it is, he's not really an option for the ball, but he's also not looking like he is, so isn't interesting the defence.

Marchant needs to commit his opposite number, and to give a clean pass to Daly.

Daly needs to realise that there's no space left outside him, and there are now 3 defenders drifting that way. Needs to either take the tackle on his own terms, or give it back inside to Manu. A cleaner pass from Marchant would have made both easier options.

May's left with no good options, but takes the very worst by preventing a quick throw that was never going to happen anyway

[Oakboy]

I suppose the players feel the pressure of not scoring tries. When a decent chance comes the composure of 'doing it right' naturally is bound to be missing. It is a factor in not pissing about giving everyone game time. Scoring a good batch of tries against lesser opposition could just make things click provide SB's 1st XV is kept going.

[Banquo]

Same, so I reserve the right to be wrong too. Can't seem to find it on any of the highlights - if you find a video of it online, please do share.

Puja

Just watched it back on the old Sky Q.

George passes well to Ford off a turnover, Ford has four men outside him, and two argentinian defenders in his field of vision. There is another Argentinian defender 'inside' him, to his left who shouldn't be even in consideration. Ford is quite slow to assess imo, accelerating a bit after he has taken it, and runs fractionally sideways before an early miss pass; his running line and timing of pass fail to fix either the inside defender (who can then run behind on a covering line) nor the original first defender who just drifts out with his fellow defender; 5 on 2 becomes 3 on 2 with covering defender now in the mix, and defenders sliding across. Marchant is still some way from the defenders and does straighten the line up....but you are right he botched the pass, because Daly was deep enough for not to be at his body, he slows, defence have drifted and that's that. Ford should have set it up better imo, straightened, not miss passed, or miss pass a fraction later....but Marchant should also have done better.

Charlie Morgan covered it in his article: www.12ft.io/https://www.telegraph.co.uk ... k-tactics/



I think you're being a touch harsh on Ford with your description - Ford's got to run with the ball to engage the Argentine 13 and I don't see much wrong with his pass. Yes, he could've passed to Manu, but I don't know I trust Manu to improve that situation and would rather the ball got to Marchant early for a 3-on-2 rather than trust Manu not to bollix up a 4-on-2. Don't think many people covered themselves in glory tbh - Manu could've looked like a running threat to fix the Argentine defence, Ford could've held onto the ball a bit longer to fix them, Marchant demonstrates clog-hands to screw up the pass to Daly, Daly refuses to believe the dream is dead and, instead of holding onto the ball and recycling, forces May into touch, and then May gives up a stupid penalty for not releasing the ball.

The real theme of that article is that May got screwed by all and sundry. He was on the outside with a chance of a break for both of Earl's KADABs, he was on the outside for the above clusterfuck, and he was on the outside with loads of room when Marchant decided to carry it up instead (and then he plays 10 on the next phase to put Marchant away into the same gap he was deprived of himself!).

Hopefully we've been working this week on minor, marginal, 1 percenters like 'passing the ball good'.

Puja

...as I said originally, it was a series of errors. I agree Ford had to run, but harder and straighter having got outside the 7...and so on.

[Banquo]

At first I thought Ford went too lateral - but he's still rounding the 7.
He probably should have kept the ball another pace or so, to make one of 13 / 10 commit to tackling him. which would mean passing right with his right foot planted, so a less clean pass. The speed that 10 is coming in, I'm not sure he has another 2 paces. I feel he should have done better, but I can see he didn't. I think he's tried to commit the 10, but Carreras does a good job at rushing up without committing.
He could have passed longer, straight to May, but with his current pace, I think we'd be castigating Ford for turning a 4 on 3 to a 1 on 3.
He could also have got the ball out to Manu/Marchant earlier -but the camera angles make it hard to say for sure.
Might even be an option of the kick in behind for Daly to run on to - but I'm not sure when the opportunity gets there to actually that in; too many legs in the way for a grubber, and would need to be kicked before the 10 rushes at GF; any hesitation to chip and the 7 collars him.

Manu's mistake is the worst (bar May) IMO, he needs to be flatter, and cutting a line against the grain to hold a defender (basically, running directly at the 10), the way the Argentines are approaching there, I'd say that if he's running that line, he'd interest 2 defenders, leaving a 3 on 1 with a little space to operate in. As it is, he's not really an option for the ball, but he's also not looking like he is, so isn't interesting the defence.

Marchant needs to commit his opposite number, and to give a clean pass to Daly.

Daly needs to realise that there's no space left outside him, and there are now 3 defenders drifting that way. Needs to either take the tackle on his own terms, or give it back inside to Manu. A cleaner pass from Marchant would have made both easier options.

May's left with no good options, but takes the very worst by preventing a quick throw that was never going to happen anyway

Ford was a bit slow accelerating, stayed a bit lateral and if throwing a miss pass had to do it later, as you say. That set up should be his forte but what he did made it easier to slide in defence. It may be harsh, but as you say, he should have done better. And I've always been a fan and still am.

[Spiffy]

Poor old Ford gets flack for a single play after steering his mediocre team to a famous victory over a good Argie side ( at least on paper, if not on the day), scoring all the points and bossing the game from start to finish. A masterful performance. Come on lads - cut him some slack. You are lucky to have him. A rose amongst weeds. Enjoy it before Farrell returns to drag everything down again.

[Mellsblue]

Poor old Ford gets flack for a single play after steering his mediocre team to a famous victory over a good Argie side ( at least on paper, if not on the day), scoring all the points and bossing the game from start to finish. A masterful performance. Come on lads - cut him some slack. You are lucky to have him. A rose amongst weeds. Enjoy it before Farrell returns to drag everything down again.

If you make a mistake you get pulled up on it, it’s test rugby. Doesn’t mean he’s not a top player - everyone makes mistakes. No doubt he, and the others involved, will have spent a far longer time analysing what went wrong, and why, than we have.

[twitchy]

Apparently maro was getting racist abuse from argentinian fans in the stands.

[Lizard]

Apparently maro was getting racist abuse from argentinian fans in the stands.

Wouldn’t surprise me give they’re fans of Pablo Matera.

[Banquo]

Poor old Ford gets flack for a single play after steering his mediocre team to a famous victory over a good Argie side ( at least on paper, if not on the day), scoring all the points and bossing the game from start to finish. A masterful performance. Come on lads - cut him some slack. You are lucky to have him. A rose amongst weeds. Enjoy it before Farrell returns to drag everything down again.

You maybe get one or two chances in the tight games, and he's had plenty of praise, including from me in this thread. The topic started as a critique of Marchant, but it wasn't quite as simple as that...which was my point, there were a series of small errors- highlights the precision needed to progress.

[Puja]

Poor old Ford gets flack for a single play after steering his mediocre team to a famous victory over a good Argie side ( at least on paper, if not on the day), scoring all the points and bossing the game from start to finish. A masterful performance. Come on lads - cut him some slack. You are lucky to have him. A rose amongst weeds. Enjoy it before Farrell returns to drag everything down again.

You maybe get one or two chances in the tight games, and he's had plenty of praise, including from me in this thread. The topic started as a critique of Marchant, but it wasn't quite as simple as that...which was my point, there were a series of small errors- highlights the precision needed to progress.

Lbr though, analysis of that moment should mostly be a critique of Marchant. We're sitting here criticising Ford for passing one step early and offering "a series of small errors" as the reason the opportunity died, rather than, "Marchant had a 3-on-2 and passed so badly that Daly had to stop and reach over his shoulder to gather it."

Puja

[Banquo]

Poor old Ford gets flack for a single play after steering his mediocre team to a famous victory over a good Argie side ( at least on paper, if not on the day), scoring all the points and bossing the game from start to finish. A masterful performance. Come on lads - cut him some slack. You are lucky to have him. A rose amongst weeds. Enjoy it before Farrell returns to drag everything down again.

You maybe get one or two chances in the tight games, and he's had plenty of praise, including from me in this thread. The topic started as a critique of Marchant, but it wasn't quite as simple as that...which was my point, there were a series of small errors- highlights the precision needed to progress.

Lbr though, analysis of that moment should mostly be a critique of Marchant. We're sitting here criticising Ford for passing one step early and offering "a series of small errors" as the reason the opportunity died, rather than, "Marchant had a 3-on-2 and passed so badly that Daly had to stop and reach over his shoulder to gather it."

Puja

I'm criticising Ford for more than that tbh, and yes Marchant did a poor job, but wasn't set up to do the best one. Not sure if you've ever played outside centre- all the timings get thrown when what's happening inside you is out of sync, and the result of what Ford did was two defenders sliding across quickly-- Marchant then did a good job straightening in fair, but his pass was poor. Even bar that, imo, the defence would have killed the initial opportunity.

And you may mock 'a series of small errors', but that is what happened.

[FKAS]

You maybe get one or two chances in the tight games, and he's had plenty of praise, including from me in this thread. The topic started as a critique of Marchant, but it wasn't quite as simple as that...which was my point, there were a series of small errors- highlights the precision needed to progress.

Lbr though, analysis of that moment should mostly be a critique of Marchant. We're sitting here criticising Ford for passing one step early and offering "a series of small errors" as the reason the opportunity died, rather than, "Marchant had a 3-on-2 and passed so badly that Daly had to stop and reach over his shoulder to gather it."

Puja

I'm criticising Ford for more than that tbh, and yes Marchant did a poor job, but wasn't set up to do the best one. Not sure if you've ever played outside centre- all the timings get thrown when what's happening inside you is out of sync, and the result of what Ford did was two defenders sliding across quickly-- Marchant then did a good job straightening in fair, but his pass was poor. Even bar that, imo, the defence would have killed the initial opportunity.

And you may mock 'a series of small errors', but that is what happened.

I have played 10, 12 and 13 and the longer Ford holds that ball the more the space is gone, there's a lot of cover coming across. Manu is way out of position and Marchant messes up what is the fundamental skill of a 13 which is catch, draw the man and release the winger with a pass they can run onto.

It's a move that lacks the fluency of a backline that knows each other, when you know the other players so well you don't need to look where they are you just know the lines they are going to run or the ones they want you to run. It's why I'm hoping the backline plays again this weekend and ideally the weekend after. The more they play together the more it'll be easier to execute and the less we'll see the players attempt to force the pass, like Daly does at the end as opposed to just recycling with momentum and a pack of forwards coming into position to crash into the receding Pumas, might have even been a cheeky crossfield kick to Steward on the other wing of things had fallen right.

[Banquo]

Lbr though, analysis of that moment should mostly be a critique of Marchant. We're sitting here criticising Ford for passing one step early and offering "a series of small errors" as the reason the opportunity died, rather than, "Marchant had a 3-on-2 and passed so badly that Daly had to stop and reach over his shoulder to gather it."

Puja

I'm criticising Ford for more than that tbh, and yes Marchant did a poor job, but wasn't set up to do the best one. Not sure if you've ever played outside centre- all the timings get thrown when what's happening inside you is out of sync, and the result of what Ford did was two defenders sliding across quickly-- Marchant then did a good job straightening in fair, but his pass was poor. Even bar that, imo, the defence would have killed the initial opportunity.

And you may mock 'a series of small errors', but that is what happened.

I have played 10, 12 and 13 and the longer Ford holds that ball the more the space is gone, there's a lot of cover coming across. Manu is way out of position and Marchant messes up what is the fundamental skill of a 13 which is catch, draw the man and release the winger with a pass they can run onto.

It's a move that lacks the fluency of a backline that knows each other, when you know the other players so well you don't need to look where they are you just know the lines they are going to run or the ones they want you to run. It's why I'm hoping the backline plays again this weekend and ideally the weekend after. The more they play together the more it'll be easier to execute and the less we'll see the players attempt to force the pass, like Daly does at the end as opposed to just recycling with momentum and a pack of forwards coming into position to crash into the receding Pumas, might have even been a cheeky crossfield kick to Steward on the other wing of things had fallen right.

The point about fixing defenders is giving them less time to react, and make the passes as flat and as close to the defence as possible. Ford passes so early that they have loads of time to drift, and further misses a player so turns it from 5 on 2 to 3 on 2. He passes later, the defenders have less time to react, pretty basic stuff....have you the skill to deal with that closer defensive pressure becomes the next question and if you have, you have stressed the defence. In fairness, Marchant had eons of time to straighten and pass, but that eon of time also allowed the defence to continue to slide across, and once they are able to start sliding they can just carry on.
Manu and Marchant undoubtedly don't play a top role either and we shouldn't have been having the debate about Marchant at all, it was a fail; but imo a clean 2 v 1 outcome had already gone by that point.

[p/d]

I have played 10, 12 and 13

See Banquo! Told you there is not much difference between 12 and 13