I'm criticising Ford for more than that tbh, and yes Marchant did a poor job, but wasn't set up to do the best one. Not sure if you've ever played outside centre- all the timings get thrown when what's happening inside you is out of sync, and the result of what Ford did was two defenders sliding across quickly-- Marchant then did a good job straightening in fair, but his pass was poor. Even bar that, imo, the defence would have killed the initial opportunity.
And you may mock 'a series of small errors', but that is what happened.
I have played 10, 12 and 13 and the longer Ford holds that ball the more the space is gone, there's a lot of cover coming across. Manu is way out of position and Marchant messes up what is the fundamental skill of a 13 which is catch, draw the man and release the winger with a pass they can run onto.
It's a move that lacks the fluency of a backline that knows each other, when you know the other players so well you don't need to look where they are you just know the lines they are going to run or the ones they want you to run. It's why I'm hoping the backline plays again this weekend and ideally the weekend after. The more they play together the more it'll be easier to execute and the less we'll see the players attempt to force the pass, like Daly does at the end as opposed to just recycling with momentum and a pack of forwards coming into position to crash into the receding Pumas, might have even been a cheeky crossfield kick to Steward on the other wing of things had fallen right.
The point about fixing defenders is giving them less time to react, and make the passes as flat and as close to the defence as possible. Ford passes so early that they have loads of time to drift, and further misses a player so turns it from 5 on 2 to 3 on 2. He passes later, the defenders have less time to react, pretty basic stuff....have you the skill to deal with that closer defensive pressure becomes the next question and if you have, you have stressed the defence. In fairness, Marchant had eons of time to straighten and pass, but that eon of time also allowed the defence to continue to slide across, and once they are able to start sliding they can just carry on.
Manu and Marchant undoubtedly don't play a top role either and we shouldn't have been having the debate about Marchant at all, it was a fail; but imo a clean 2 v 1 outcome had already gone by that point.
Yeah the problem with holding on to "fix the defender" is that there's the sweeper running up to join the line as a fourth defender and the openside coming across. The centre isn't going to commit to Ford because he can hear the 9 screaming at him, he'll keep backing off and concede ground knowing that if Ford steps back inside he can cut him off from his support and that they are better conceding ground than a line break.
Time is Argentina's friend, the longer Ford holds the ball the more support comes from the inside and the more the Puma centre will back track to facilitate that support arriving. Fixing the man requires the opposition to be willing to make a tackle.
Putting the ball to where the space is forces the defence to commit as they can't back off when racing across to cover.
By not fixing the defenders you’re allowing them and the sweeper to move on to the outside backs instead of just the sweeper moving on to the outside backs.
I think you’d be hard pressed to find many people who think the best option there isn’t to put the ball through the hands one man to the next.
I have played 10, 12 and 13 and the longer Ford holds that ball the more the space is gone, there's a lot of cover coming across. Manu is way out of position and Marchant messes up what is the fundamental skill of a 13 which is catch, draw the man and release the winger with a pass they can run onto.
It's a move that lacks the fluency of a backline that knows each other, when you know the other players so well you don't need to look where they are you just know the lines they are going to run or the ones they want you to run. It's why I'm hoping the backline plays again this weekend and ideally the weekend after. The more they play together the more it'll be easier to execute and the less we'll see the players attempt to force the pass, like Daly does at the end as opposed to just recycling with momentum and a pack of forwards coming into position to crash into the receding Pumas, might have even been a cheeky crossfield kick to Steward on the other wing of things had fallen right.
The point about fixing defenders is giving them less time to react, and make the passes as flat and as close to the defence as possible. Ford passes so early that they have loads of time to drift, and further misses a player so turns it from 5 on 2 to 3 on 2. He passes later, the defenders have less time to react, pretty basic stuff....have you the skill to deal with that closer defensive pressure becomes the next question and if you have, you have stressed the defence. In fairness, Marchant had eons of time to straighten and pass, but that eon of time also allowed the defence to continue to slide across, and once they are able to start sliding they can just carry on.
Manu and Marchant undoubtedly don't play a top role either and we shouldn't have been having the debate about Marchant at all, it was a fail; but imo a clean 2 v 1 outcome had already gone by that point.
Yeah the problem with holding on to "fix the defender" is that there's the sweeper running up to join the line as a fourth defender and the openside coming across. The centre isn't going to commit to Ford because he can hear the 9 screaming at him, he'll keep backing off and concede ground knowing that if Ford steps back inside he can cut him off from his support and that they are better conceding ground than a line break.
Time is Argentina's friend, the longer Ford holds the ball the more support comes from the inside and the more the Puma centre will back track to facilitate that support arriving. Fixing the man requires the opposition to be willing to make a tackle.
Putting the ball to where the space is forces the defence to commit as they can't back off when racing across to cover.
He has to run harder and straighter at the inside shoulders, the initial problem is that he doesn't get up to pace immediately and straighten. The earlier he passes, the easier it is to drift as amply demonstrated...time is what he gave them at the start of it, by being a bit lateral, and by passing so early they could read and react- having decided to miss pass, he had to leave it later. Marchant then had to run hard and run straight (that bit was good) to even commit the 13 (and he was even able to drift off Marchant), So I don't think we agree
Just a reminder folks that 4 of the 5 backs involved in this balls-up have been training & playing together for England for years. So there can't reasonably be any cohesion/familiarity excuse.
I don’t see this as hating on Ford, it’s just that many of us have talked freely about him being the best passer (or timer of a pass) in the world for a while now, and we’re so blood desperate to score a few more tries through the backs right now.
Marchant, though never having had a settled spot in the side or shown much of his attacking flair, has made a few of these lovely little linking passes for tries in his few appearances so far. He doesn’t have the passing range of Slade but as a club player he always seems to do the right thing in attack, so it was a frustrating blunder from everyone involved.
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Fri Sep 15, 2023 1:28 pm
I don’t see this as hating on Ford, it’s just that many of us have talked freely about him being the best passer (or timer of a pass) in the world for a while now, and we’re so blood desperate to score a few more tries through the backs right now.
Marchant, though never having had a settled spot in the side or shown much of his attacking flair, has made a few of these lovely little linking passes for tries in his few appearances so far. He doesn’t have the passing range of Slade but as a club player he always seems to do the right thing in attack, so it was a frustrating blunder from everyone involved.
Blustration or flunder.
And definitely not 'hate' on Ford, easily the best backline orchestrator we have. God knows I hope we stick with that midfield, two runners outside Ford has to be best, and get Daly (at 11) doing a bit of playmaking from the backfield which was his strength at 15 from turnover ball. Means a bit of juggling but perfectly doable.
rjjb wrote: ↑Fri Sep 15, 2023 1:07 pm
Just a reminder folks that 4 of the 5 backs involved in this balls-up have been training & playing together for England for years. So there can't reasonably be any cohesion/familiarity excuse.
Nobody, surely, is suggesting that Ford, Marchant, Daly and May are not fully capable of successfully combining to score a try in such a scenario. Some (all) of the four, however, are not coming off a good long run of fitness and form. As a foursome, they are not currently used to playing together at international level with a coaching system that allows the freedom to play what they see. In a a couple of games' time with some tries on board they will be much more slick, I'd guess.
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Fri Sep 15, 2023 3:39 pm
Sure it wasn’t Faz putting him off by yelling at him to kick it away?
Pah!!! Faz would have straightened, drew the defence then actioned a delicate grubber to gift a try for Daly or May.
No chance he would have wondered across the pitch before throwing a shit pass to Marchant.
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Fri Sep 15, 2023 3:39 pm
Sure it wasn’t Faz putting him off by yelling at him to kick it away?
Pah!!! Faz would have straightened, drew the defence then actioned a delicate grubber to gift a try for Daly or May.
No chance he would have wondered across the pitch before throwing a shit pass to Marchant.
Faz will have been working on his drop kicking for shizzle
Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Sep 15, 2023 11:04 am
The point about fixing defenders is giving them less time to react, and make the passes as flat and as close to the defence as possible. Ford passes so early that they have loads of time to drift, and further misses a player so turns it from 5 on 2 to 3 on 2. He passes later, the defenders have less time to react, pretty basic stuff....have you the skill to deal with that closer defensive pressure becomes the next question and if you have, you have stressed the defence. In fairness, Marchant had eons of time to straighten and pass, but that eon of time also allowed the defence to continue to slide across, and once they are able to start sliding they can just carry on.
Manu and Marchant undoubtedly don't play a top role either and we shouldn't have been having the debate about Marchant at all, it was a fail; but imo a clean 2 v 1 outcome had already gone by that point.
Yeah the problem with holding on to "fix the defender" is that there's the sweeper running up to join the line as a fourth defender and the openside coming across. The centre isn't going to commit to Ford because he can hear the 9 screaming at him, he'll keep backing off and concede ground knowing that if Ford steps back inside he can cut him off from his support and that they are better conceding ground than a line break.
Time is Argentina's friend, the longer Ford holds the ball the more support comes from the inside and the more the Puma centre will back track to facilitate that support arriving. Fixing the man requires the opposition to be willing to make a tackle.
Putting the ball to where the space is forces the defence to commit as they can't back off when racing across to cover.
He has to run harder and straighter at the inside shoulders, the initial problem is that he doesn't get up to pace immediately and straighten. The earlier he passes, the easier it is to drift as amply demonstrated...time is what he gave them at the start of it, by being a bit lateral, and by passing so early they could read and react- having decided to miss pass, he had to leave it later. Marchant then had to run hard and run straight (that bit was good) to even commit the 13 (and he was even able to drift off Marchant), So I don't think we agree
If he runs hard and straight then the centre shows him the inside and Ford gets cut off from his support and swallowed up by the Puma defence. The Argue defender isn't backing off because he's worried about Ford running over him. The Puma openside isn't far from Ford when he passes, running straighter and harder isn't going to stop that flanker from catching up, Ford is angling his run away from the Puma forwards he knows are coming across. The Puma defence don't bite so he moves the ball to space it's pretty much textbook.
Yeah the problem with holding on to "fix the defender" is that there's the sweeper running up to join the line as a fourth defender and the openside coming across. The centre isn't going to commit to Ford because he can hear the 9 screaming at him, he'll keep backing off and concede ground knowing that if Ford steps back inside he can cut him off from his support and that they are better conceding ground than a line break.
Time is Argentina's friend, the longer Ford holds the ball the more support comes from the inside and the more the Puma centre will back track to facilitate that support arriving. Fixing the man requires the opposition to be willing to make a tackle.
Putting the ball to where the space is forces the defence to commit as they can't back off when racing across to cover.
He has to run harder and straighter at the inside shoulders, the initial problem is that he doesn't get up to pace immediately and straighten. The earlier he passes, the easier it is to drift as amply demonstrated...time is what he gave them at the start of it, by being a bit lateral, and by passing so early they could read and react- having decided to miss pass, he had to leave it later. Marchant then had to run hard and run straight (that bit was good) to even commit the 13 (and he was even able to drift off Marchant), So I don't think we agree
it's pretty much textbook.
Lol. How long must a player be at a new club before the tiger striped spectacles fall off?
This has been a fascinating discussion, but it doesn't really matter as everyone inside him could have done everything perfectly and Marchant's pass would still have stuffed the entire move.
Yeah the problem with holding on to "fix the defender" is that there's the sweeper running up to join the line as a fourth defender and the openside coming across. The centre isn't going to commit to Ford because he can hear the 9 screaming at him, he'll keep backing off and concede ground knowing that if Ford steps back inside he can cut him off from his support and that they are better conceding ground than a line break.
Time is Argentina's friend, the longer Ford holds the ball the more support comes from the inside and the more the Puma centre will back track to facilitate that support arriving. Fixing the man requires the opposition to be willing to make a tackle.
Putting the ball to where the space is forces the defence to commit as they can't back off when racing across to cover.
He has to run harder and straighter at the inside shoulders, the initial problem is that he doesn't get up to pace immediately and straighten. The earlier he passes, the easier it is to drift as amply demonstrated...time is what he gave them at the start of it, by being a bit lateral, and by passing so early they could read and react- having decided to miss pass, he had to leave it later. Marchant then had to run hard and run straight (that bit was good) to even commit the 13 (and he was even able to drift off Marchant), So I don't think we agree
If he runs hard and straight then the centre shows him the inside and Ford gets cut off from his support and swallowed up by the Puma defence. The Argue defender isn't backing off because he's worried about Ford running over him. The Puma openside isn't far from Ford when he passes, running straighter and harder isn't going to stop that flanker from catching up, Ford is angling his run away from the Puma forwards he knows are coming across. The Puma defence don't bite so he moves the ball to space it's pretty much textbook.
What textbook? That of 'not my problem' hope someone else sorts it?
If he runs harder straighter passes later...defence holds a fraction longer, we arent going sideways, the two front defenders arent sliding sideways easily, and 5 on 2 hasn't bcome 3 on 2......possibly. Whichever you look, 5 on 2 became 3 on 2...with a crabbing attack.
16th man wrote: ↑Fri Sep 15, 2023 9:33 pm
This has been a fascinating discussion, but it doesn't really matter as everyone inside him could have done everything perfectly and Marchant's pass would still have stuffed the entire move.
Except even had he passed perfectly- obvs shoot him for not doing so, to coin a phrase- the overlap was half burned, we were lateral despite him straightening, and the defence had drifted .
Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 9:08 am
This is all moot, guys. Once Farrell's back he'll take your rugby to a higher level. Well, a different level at least.
I can't think of anything polite to say to that. My first thought began and ended with 'f'.
Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 9:08 am
This is all moot, guys. Once Farrell's back he'll take your rugby to a higher level. Well, a different level at least.
I can't think of anything polite to say to that. My first thought began and ended with 'f'.
Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 9:08 am
This is all moot, guys. Once Farrell's back he'll take your rugby to a higher level. Well, a different level at least.
I can't think of anything polite to say to that. My first thought began and ended with 'f'.
Don’t be so quick to judge. Farrell is our best 10 option. No other 10 allows us to play our trump card of going down to 14 without risking a drop in team performance
