It's not the gun laws, it's the Islamists!

[UGagain]

Already mentioned the USSR. Worst phase was under Georgian leadership, not Russian. Russia itself is not expansionist, and is mostly occupied with defending what it regards as its traditional borders as NATO surrounds it with military bases. So if you want to talk about the Caribbean, tell me what happened last time the Russians (Soviets) showed up there . . .

Yes, there is a huge difference in what China is doing, and that's why the US is beginning to behave aggressively toward them as well. The Chinese are actually trading with the Third World, not bombing them, overthrowing and murdering their leaders, and planting puppet dictators in their place. You really do have a warped view of the world. Too much BBC, perhaps?

Stalin was actually a non-expansionist. It was the Trotskyites who were the 'internationalists'. The USSR was hardly a willing imperial power ever.

Truman and Churchill were responsible for the Cold War and the Warsaw Pact.

Poland and Finland may disagree there.

Poland and Finland are legally defined geographical areas. They can't agree or disagree with anything.

[rowan]

Poland and Finland may disagree there.

So can you provide us with an example of either post-Soviet Russia or China invading countries on other continents, perhaps? You know, the way the British Empire did, and the way America now does with Britain riding along on its coat-tails.

America has 800 military bases in 63 countries spread all around the world. Russia has military bases in 10 countries - less than Britian and France - and all but Vietnam and Syria are bordering countries who were formerly part of the USSR. China doesn't appear to have any military bases in any foreign countries anywhere.

But they're the expansionists...

[Sandydragon]

Poland and Finland may disagree there.

So can you provide us with an example of either post-Soviet Russia or China invading countries on other continents, perhaps? You know, the way the British Empire did, and the way America now does with Britain riding along on its coat-tails.

America has 800 military bases in 63 countries spread all around the world. Russia has military bases in 10 countries - less than Britian and France - and all but Vietnam and Syria are bordering countries who were formerly part of the USSR. China doesn't appear to have any military bases in any foreign countries anywhere.

But they're the expansionists...

Small point, but you've quoted a response to Stalin being non expansionist. That would be the USSR period.

Why does an invasion have to be on another continent to qualify? That's shows the limitations on the ability to project power, not intent.

[Donny osmond]

What makes you think I forgot it? China has territorial disputes over its border, rightly or wrongly. The British Empire invaded countries all over the world, on every inhabited continent, in one of the most horrific examples of human evil in history, and now the American empire is behaving the same way - with Britain's loyal support. But there's no accountability in your culture. Instead, you lionize and immortalize your war criminals then point the finger elsewhere, crying 'What about them!'

But I'm trying to do the maths and you wont even help!!

Also, if you could point out where anyone has lionized and/or immortalized war criminals on rugby rebels that'd be great, otherwise you're just twisting and evading, and as you complained so much when that happened to you, we all know you wouldn't be so hypocritical as to do it to others now... would you?

[UGagain]

Poland and Finland may disagree there.

So can you provide us with an example of either post-Soviet Russia or China invading countries on other continents, perhaps? You know, the way the British Empire did, and the way America now does with Britain riding along on its coat-tails.

America has 800 military bases in 63 countries spread all around the world. Russia has military bases in 10 countries - less than Britian and France - and all but Vietnam and Syria are bordering countries who were formerly part of the USSR. China doesn't appear to have any military bases in any foreign countries anywhere.

But they're the expansionists...

Small point, but you've quoted a response to Stalin being non expansionist. That would be the USSR period.

Why does an invasion have to be on another continent to qualify? That's shows the limitations on the ability to project power, not intent.

When did the USSR ever invade or occupy a country to steal its economic surplus?

That's your Realpolitik, chum.

[UGagain]

The notion that the CCP is being expansionist in the South China Sea and beyond is absurd on its face.

They are the traders who depend on free navigation. The US's 'pivot to Asia' is a threat to free navigation and China's trade lines.

You'd have to be pretty stupid believe the US propaganda on that.

[rowan]

Also, if you could point out where anyone has lionized and/or immortalized war criminals on rugby rebels that'd be great

I was referring to British society, not anyone in particular on this forum. There are countless examples, of course, and one of the first who springs to mind is the 'Teeth that Saved the World,' which teeth didn't remotely save the world at all, but rather machined gunned the Sudanese, bombed the Egyptians, threw the Anzacs at the Turks, gassed the Arabs & Kurds, fire-bombed Dresden, starved the Bengalis and helped overthrow Iran's first democratic government so that Britain could continue controlling its oil industry (didn't quite work out that way, of course), among other heinous crimes by that particular set of teeth.

Btw, I believe it's the 71st anniversary of the Hiroshima bombing today. http://howardzinn.org/a-veteran-against-war

[Donny osmond]

Also, if you could point out where anyone has lionized and/or immortalized war criminals on rugby rebels that'd be great

I was referring to British society, not anyone in particular on this forum. There are countless examples, of course, and one of the first who springs to mind is the 'Teeth that Saved the World,' which teeth didn't remotely save the world at all, but rather machined gunned the Sudanese, bombed the Egyptians, threw the Anzacs at the Turks, gassed the Arabs & Kurds, fire-bombed Dresden, starved the Bengalis and helped overthrow Iran's first democratic government so that Britain could continue controlling its oil industry (didn't quite work out that way, of course), among other heinous crimes by that particular set of teeth.

Btw, I believe it's the 71st anniversary of the Hiroshima bombing today. http://howardzinn.org/a-veteran-against-war

So, just twisting and avoiding then? That's a shame. And I notice you aren't making any attempt to justify or explain why expansionism is only expansionism when its in a non-adjacent country. Or why butchering 10s of millions internally is somehow less abhorrent than not doing that externally.

But you are doing quite well at the old "what about them" misdirection game that you profess to hate so much. Are you, in fact, an Evil British?

[rowan]

why butchering 10s of millions internally is somehow less abhorrent than not doing that externally.


Not what I said, Donny. I simply drew a distinction between territorial disputes over traditional borders and expansionist wars waged in far off countries and other continents. China and post-Soviet Russia indulge in the former, not the latter. The British & American empires clearly engage(d) in the latter. As to which is worse, that would have to be looked at on a case by case basis. But what we can say, is that while disputes over traditional borders may be justifiable in some cases, expansionist wars are always evil - without exception. If that leads you to the conclusion I am defending the purges of the Georgian butcher, you are not paying attention.

Are you, in fact, an Evil British?

Hong Kong-born, New Zealand-raised & 1/4 English - with UK citizenship. U?

[Donny osmond]

why butchering 10s of millions internally is somehow less abhorrent than not doing that externally.


Not what I said, Donny. I simply drew a distinction between territorial disputes over traditional borders and expansionist wars waged in far off countries and other continents. China and post-Soviet Russia indulge in the former, not the latter. The British & American empires clearly engage(d) in the latter. As to which is worse, that would have to be looked at on a case by case basis. But what we can say, is that while disputes over traditional borders may be justifiable in some cases, expansionist wars are always evil - without exception. If that leads you to the conclusion I am defending the purges of the Georgian butcher, you are not paying attention.

Are you, in fact, an Evil British?

Hong Kong-born, New Zealand-raised & 1/4 English - with UK citizenship. U?

I know what you're doing, but as Sandy said your distinction is based on the ability to project power, not on the desire to project power.
Classing some countries as less evil than others simply because they kept their butchery within "traditional" border disputes is meaningless.
When it gets to the point that a regime that, within living memory, has butchered scores of millions of people is classed as less evil than a regime that, 100s of years ago didn't come anywhere close to that, personally it seems like your distinction is at best arbitrary, at worst bordering on something much more malignant.

[rowan]

Classing some countries as less evil than others simply because they kept their butchery within "traditional" border disputes is meaningless.

You're still not paying attention, Donny...

[Lizard]

Poland and Finland may disagree there.

So can you provide us with an example of either post-Soviet Russia or China invading countries on other continents, perhaps? You know, the way the British Empire did, and the way America now does with Britain riding along on its coat-tails.

America has 800 military bases in 63 countries spread all around the world. Russia has military bases in 10 countries - less than Britian and France - and all but Vietnam and Syria are bordering countries who were formerly part of the USSR. China doesn't appear to have any military bases in any foreign countries anywhere.

But they're the expansionists...

Funny, seeing as how China is usually so transparent and open about this stuff.

I don't know if China has any actual military bases in other countries, but I hitched a ride in a Chinese military vehicle, driven by a Chinese dude in fatigues in Zimbabwe. That's a long way to drive from China.

[Sandydragon]

China has some ambitions to be a global power.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/59ad20d6-f74b ... z4GeOKGZiF

[rowan]

China has ambitions of becoming a global financial power, of course. They have about 1/6 of the world's population to take care of and personally I'd like to see them succeed. I've spent a bit of time in China and also have Chinese relatives, and a more pleasant, modest and respectful people would be hard to find. In addition to which, they are notably studious, philosophical and refined. The sooner they replace America and its violent, racist culture as the world's major super power the better. But I don't think the Chinese have any interest in taking over the world by violent methods, and that's probably why they do not have a solitary military base in any other country, and have not recently invaded any country for reasons other than traditional border disputes with the exception of a couple of skirmishes with Vietnam.

Compare this to countries bombed by America since WWII:

China 1945-46
Korea 1950-53
China 1950-53
Guatemala 1954
Indonesia 1958
Cuba 1959-60
Guatemala 1960
Belgian Congo 1964
Guatemala 1964
Dominican Republic 1965-66
Peru 1965
Laos 1964-73
Vietnam 1961-73
Cambodia 1969-70
Guatemala 1967-69
Lebanon 1982-84
Grenada 1983-84
Libya 1986
El Salvador 1981-92
Nicaragua 1981-90
Iran 1987-88
Libya 1989
Panama 1989-90
Iraq 1991
Kuwait 1991
Somalia 1992-94
Bosnia 1995
Iran 1998
Sudan 1998
Afghanistan 1998
Yugoslavia – Serbia 1999
Afghanistan 2001
Iraq 2003
Libya 2011 (currently at it again)

This doesn't include bombings by other countries supported by America, such as Israel in Palestine & Saudi in Yemen, to name just two present examples, nor bombings by America itself, ostensibly on terrorist targets, such as within Syria (uninvited) and Iraq at the present. & neither does in include its drone strikes in Pakistan, Yemen & elsewhere.

Meanwhile, where Britain is concerned, it's actually easier just to provide a list of the countries they haven't tried to invade in their history:

Andorra
Belarus
Bolivia
Burundi
Central African Republic
Chad
Congo, Republic of
Guatemala
Ivory Coast
Kyrgyzstan
Liechtenstein
Luxembourg
Mali
Marshall Islands
Monaco
Mongolia
Paraguay
Sao Tome and Principe
Sweden
Tajikistan
Uzbekistan
Vatican City

[Lizard]

I don't know if China has any actual military bases in other countries, but I hitched a ride in a Chinese military vehicle, driven by a Chinese dude in fatigues in Zimbabwe. That's a long way to drive from China.

They've got a bit of a presence in Africa already (IIRC, on the pretext of their sailors getting nabbed by Somali pirates a few years ago when that was all the rage), and it appears they're either building or have built one in Djibouti.

China was everywhere in Africa when I was there (2009), most visibly in infrastructure projects. Call me cynical but I couldn't help but draw parallels between the shiny new Chinese roads and the decrepit, abandoned British (and German) railways that followed roughly the same routes and presumably will serve the same purpose of advancing the extraction of natural resources.

In Sudan, a trip I believed would take several days in a truck across the desert took only a single morning thanks to a new Chinese-built road. The ride was not as comfortable as you might expect because although the ride surface itself was smooth, it was built on a raised berm of sand and (I hope) ballast of some sort (I hate to think what will happen if it ever rains) which was strictly a point-to-point affair. There was no formed access to any of the villages the road by-passed so the bus would just plunge down the side of the berm at a less steep part, do dropping off and picking up, and then run parallel to the road until it got up enough speed to re-climb the berm.

[rowan]

I don't know if China has any actual military bases in other countries, but I hitched a ride in a Chinese military vehicle, driven by a Chinese dude in fatigues in Zimbabwe. That's a long way to drive from China.

They've got a bit of a presence in Africa already (IIRC, on the pretext of their sailors getting nabbed by Somali pirates a few years ago when that was all the rage), and it appears they're either building or have built one in Djibouti.

China was everywhere in Africa when I was there (2009), most visibly in infrastructure projects. Call me cynical but I couldn't help but draw parallels between the shiny new Chinese roads and the decrepit, abandoned British (and German) railways that followed roughly the same routes and presumably will serve the same purpose of advancing the extraction of natural resources.

In Sudan, a trip I believed would take several days in a truck across the desert took only a single morning thanks to a new Chinese-built road. The ride was not as comfortable as you might expect because although the ride surface itself was smooth, it was built on a raised berm of sand and (I hope) ballast of some sort (I hate to think what will happen if it ever rains) which was strictly a point-to-point affair. There was no formed access to any of the villages the road by-passed so the bus would just plunge down the side of the berm at a less steep part, do dropping off and picking up, and then run parallel to the road until it got up enough speed to re-climb the berm.

Nice to see the Chinese doing business with the Africans and building infrastructure. As long as they don't bomb and occupy any of those countries, murder their leaders, set up brutal dictatorships and monopolize the economy entirely for their own interests, that sounds like a pretty good set-up to me.

Obviously the Americans & Europeans are embittered by the competition, having regarded the 3rd World as their own private back yard for so long, hence the rising Sinophobia...

[morepork]

Gunz.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-37036848


Way to go popo.

[Sandydragon]

China will do business on generous terms with pretty much anyone. Better yet for a lot of governments, they are less squeamish than we are.

[rowan]

Americans were very much involved behind the scenes in forcing the split. Why do you think Clooney was over there pretending to be involved in some kind of revolution. I had a couple of friends working in Sudan at the time, in fact, one in the north and one in the south. The latter had to be airlifted out of Juba by helicopter...

[rowan]

Interesting news. A truck was driven into a crowd in Germany and a Pakistani refugee was arrested. The news called it 'terrorism' and published a report that ISIS had claimed responsibility. The police realised they had made a mistake and got the wrong guy. Now they arrested two Kosovans. ISIS using Kosovans now?

In the end it was a Tunisian who had been living in Milan. Killed in a shoot-out.