England vs Samoa - Sat 4.45pm

[FKAS]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/ ... -two-sides

Anyone disagree?

Or is it just that the TMOs are ruining the game for
everyone consistently. Some of the frame by frame stuff is just painful.

I do think that sometimes the tier 2 teams do get a rough ride. Not sure last night was one of them. Perhaps the yellow was harsh but when you are on a warning for two pretty clumsy off the ball hits then a completely unnecessary tackle of a player in the air is dim.

[p/d]

I was unaware of the clock. I obviously got lost a little," he said.

Probably mentioned but I find this comment staggering

Alongside …….‘we are building a side that can get out of difficult situations’

[Puja]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/ ... -two-sides

Anyone disagree?

Or is it just that the TMOs are ruining the game for
everyone consistently. Some of the frame by frame stuff is just painful.

I do think that sometimes the tier 2 teams do get a rough ride. Not sure last night was one of them. Perhaps the yellow was harsh but when you are on a warning for two pretty clumsy off the ball hits then a completely unnecessary tackle of a player in the air is dim.

I was also baffled by people criticising the TMO's intervention on their third try going, "There were three hands on it!" Yes, there were, and the one that was clearly imparting the forward motion belonged to a Samoan. Were it anyone but us against a PI team, then I'd've been cheering for them and decrying the call too, but it wasn't actually controversial.

I don't know I'd've given their yellow, but I would've absolutely given one to McFarland for cynically bringing down our maul that was motoring upfield without opposition at the start of the match, so it balances out.

Puja

[p/d]

Think Brace should have stuck with his on field decision, awarded Samoa 5 points and had it put down as a ‘Mitchell og’

[Banquo]

Care try saving tackle, Lawes getting back to pounce on the resulting loose ball and McFarland’s mocking Earl with a ‘Earl-esque’ celebration on Samoa securing the ball we’re my highlights.

Ford's try saver was so impressive Stupid Bastard yanked him off, as it were

[Banquo]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/ ... -two-sides

Anyone disagree?

Or is it just that the TMOs are ruining the game for
everyone consistently. Some of the frame by frame stuff is just painful.

Its the latter, I hate the whole TMO charade. If you are going to do it, do it properly and quickly.

[Banquo]

I see Itoje is once again being questioned. Even the commentator said he's been 'quiet' (despite a key jackal). Does no-one actually watch what he does; he got some stick for marchant's none try, but Marchant over ran him imo (players slow into contact and when passing Joe ).

[canta_brian]

I see Itoje is once again being questioned. Even the commentator said he's been 'quiet' (despite a key jackal). Does no-one actually watch what he does; he got some stick for marchant's none try, but Marchant over ran him imo (players slow into contact and when passing Joe ).

What’s the better option, throw the pass that gets caught and hope it gets ruled as flat, or throw a pass you know is backwards and hang your teammate out to dry?

[Mikey Brown]

100% that ball had to go earlier.

[p/d]

100% that ball had to go earlier.

100% he shouldn’t have passed. Kept the ball and reset.
To be fair I think he fell off quite a few tackles and still needs an enforcer alongside him. That said he is not the problem.

[FKAS]

100% that ball had to go earlier.

100% he shouldn’t have passed. Kept the ball and reset.
To be fair I think he fell off quite a few tackles and still needs an enforcer alongside him. That said he is not the problem.

I think the day of the traditional enforcer is pretty much gone. Chessum played well alongside Itoje with 11 tackles none missed and 40m from 5 carries.

I think we lacked physicality in the backrow personally. Lawes having an off game and then the dual opensides struggled to stop the Samoans on the gain line. Worrying ahead of the Fiji game as it's not going to be any easier or less physical.

Maybe it's the next way to crowbar Farrell into the side, he made 13 tackles and missed only 1. Only Earl made more (16).

[Puja]

100% that ball had to go earlier.

100% he shouldn’t have passed. Kept the ball and reset.
To be fair I think he fell off quite a few tackles and still needs an enforcer alongside him. That said he is not the problem.

I think the day of the traditional enforcer is pretty much gone. Chessum played well alongside Itoje with 11 tackles none missed and 40m from 5 carries.

I think we lacked physicality in the backrow personally. Lawes having an off game and then the dual opensides struggled to stop the Samoans on the gain line. Worrying ahead of the Fiji game as it's not going to be any easier or less physical.

Maybe it's the next way to crowbar Farrell into the side, he made 13 tackles and missed only 1. Only Earl made more (16).

I have always maintained that both generations of Farrells should've been back rows. So much of what Fazlet's good at would've been an asset as a 7 - the hard tackling, the rucking, the desire to dominate contact - while his talents that aren't quite good enough for 10 would be an asset and a bonus as an openside.

Puja

[Oakboy]

The second row is not the issue. If front and back rows were playing as well we'd have less problems. I thought Genge was below his best, George was erratic and Cole very limited away from the scrum. Our back row was up against a good unit. Curry worked his socks off. Lawes did some critical stuff. Earl struggled a bit but that is hardly surprising at this level. He did still look a far better No 8 than BV.

[Insouciant]

Is it significant that SB waited till after this game to call up a replacement for Willis?

I'm going to say no. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/67044050 Underhill incoming.

It doesn't make sense to me to watch that match and think - we'll be ok with a makeshift 8 and Billy V coming off the bench. Earls has been very good at time (his celebrating of opposition errors has kept up morale for sure), but if he gets injured/tired we don't really have a decent replacement. Sorry Billy, you've been very good for England over your career but it's just not working atm.


6. Underhill
7. Curry
8. Earls

That seems the obvious choice. Seeing as there's no Willis anymore, I'd have Ludlam on the bench. IMHO, he always gives 100% and seems to play a bit above expectations. A workhorse late in the game could be useful, even if someone with more dynamism/carrying impact would make more sense. Maybe to remedy that start with 12. Lawrence, 13. Marchant with Tuilagi on the bench. No doubt Squeaky Bumtime is going to pick Billy V. (he's the only 8 we need apparently).

[Mikey Brown]

Yes to Farrell becoming a flanker 15 years ago. I genuinely think he could have been great there. His hands and pace would suddenly be a slight plus rather than quite a big minus.

If Lawes is continuing to have one good game followed by one bad it might be worth giving him the week off against Fiji and save his 1 good performance for the semi.

I like Underhill but I just can’t see him still doing it at this level. Ludlam needs to be in there somewhere.

[Oakboy]

I'd have brought in t'other Willis to play at 8. Presumably, if fully back to his best, Underhill is reckoned to provide more pace in the loose.

[Banquo]

I see Itoje is once again being questioned. Even the commentator said he's been 'quiet' (despite a key jackal). Does no-one actually watch what he does; he got some stick for marchant's none try, but Marchant over ran him imo (players slow into contact and when passing Joe ).

What’s the better option, throw the pass that gets caught and hope it gets ruled as flat, or throw a pass you know is backwards and hang your teammate out to dry?

Hang onto it

[Insouciant]

Out of interest - which back 3 players are actually fit? Am I correct in thinking it's May, Steward, Arundell, Malins(?) With the following being considered as potential converts in experimental systems/cover - Marchant, Smith? Have forgotten someone? I'm remembering Daly & Watson both being injured. It's a particular shame re Watson. He'd have been my second back (aside from Ford) on the team sheet.

[Banquo]

100% that ball had to go earlier.

Will have to look at that again

[p/d]

Should be Ludlum, Curry and T Willis.

The fact SB has spent most of the tournament ignoring j Willis then what is the point of Underhill.

[p/d]

The second row is not the issue. If front and back rows were playing as well we'd have less problems. I thought Genge was below his best, George was erratic and Cole very limited away from the scrum. Our back row was up against a good unit. Curry worked his socks off. Lawes did some critical stuff. Earl struggled a bit but that is hardly surprising at this level. He did still look a far better No 8 than BV.

I actually do think our second row is underpowered. Not saying it is an issue, but hey-ho. Jury out on Martin becoming an integral part but I hope he can.

[Puja]

The second row is not the issue. If front and back rows were playing as well we'd have less problems. I thought Genge was below his best, George was erratic and Cole very limited away from the scrum. Our back row was up against a good unit. Curry worked his socks off. Lawes did some critical stuff. Earl struggled a bit but that is hardly surprising at this level. He did still look a far better No 8 than BV.

I actually do think our second row is underpowered. Not saying it is an issue, but hey-ho. Jury out on Martin becoming an integral part but I hope he can.

I am hoping these new hybrid contracts don't result in Martin being shuffled backwards to 6 again. He looked so good for Leicester at lock towards the end of the season and needs to be allowed to focus on being the best lock he can be, rather than being dragged about and kept as a hybrid.

Puja

[p/d]

The second row is not the issue. If front and back rows were playing as well we'd have less problems. I thought Genge was below his best, George was erratic and Cole very limited away from the scrum. Our back row was up against a good unit. Curry worked his socks off. Lawes did some critical stuff. Earl struggled a bit but that is hardly surprising at this level. He did still look a far better No 8 than BV.

I actually do think our second row is underpowered. Not saying it is an issue, but hey-ho. Jury out on Martin becoming an integral part but I hope he can.

I am hoping these new hybrid contracts don't result in Martin being shuffled backwards to 6 again. He looked so good for Leicester at lock towards the end of the season and needs to be allowed to focus on being the best lock he can be, rather than being dragged about and kept as a hybrid.

Puja

Absolutely. He looks to have the goods to be a cracking lock. Dare I say it, but the player Eddie wanted Ewels to be

[Mellsblue]

The second row is not the issue. If front and back rows were playing as well we'd have less problems. I thought Genge was below his best, George was erratic and Cole very limited away from the scrum. Our back row was up against a good unit. Curry worked his socks off. Lawes did some critical stuff. Earl struggled a bit but that is hardly surprising at this level. He did still look a far better No 8 than BV.

I actually do think our second row is underpowered. Not saying it is an issue, but hey-ho. Jury out on Martin becoming an integral part but I hope he can.

I am hoping these new hybrid contracts don't result in Martin being shuffled backwards to 6 again. He looked so good for Leicester at lock towards the end of the season and needs to be allowed to focus on being the best lock he can be, rather than being dragged about and kept as a hybrid.

Puja

Fairly certain I’ve read that the hybrids contracts don’t allow Stinky Backside to dictate position. It’s pretty much just control over game time, S&C and access only. All whispers and rumour till someone outside of Twickenham sees documents, obvs.

[FKAS]

I actually do think our second row is underpowered. Not saying it is an issue, but hey-ho. Jury out on Martin becoming an integral part but I hope he can.

I am hoping these new hybrid contracts don't result in Martin being shuffled backwards to 6 again. He looked so good for Leicester at lock towards the end of the season and needs to be allowed to focus on being the best lock he can be, rather than being dragged about and kept as a hybrid.

Puja

Absolutely. He looks to have the goods to be a cracking lock. Dare I say it, but the player Eddie wanted Ewels to be

Agreed. He looks a bit raw at the minute but there's definitely a diamond that can be polished up there. At 22 there's plenty of time to do so as well. A 6ft6 lock who's 19 stone and still mobile enough to play 6 is exactly what we need to come through. Just might have to be patient.

With t'other Chessum and Richards at Bath on their way through we could have some big and mobile options at lock in the next world cup.