QF v Fiji

[p/d]

Telegraph reporting similar lineup to the Heil. Fucking appalling; there appears to be literally nothing that can happen for Farrell to not be the first name on the team sheet because of his "intangibles".

“He’s a winner,” said attack coach Richard Wigglesworth, who played alongside Farrell in several finals for Saracens. “That term gets thrown around quite a bit. That is Owen. He, under the harshest of pressures and biggest of moments, tends to get better. That is a sign of a winner.

“He doesn’t just get better but has more of an impact on the people around him as well. We know what gets said about Owen. He’s the highest ever points-scorer for England, delivers time and time again, and those players tend to catch the most flak for some reason. We’ve got one of the best to do it. We’re lucky to have him. He will no doubt have a massive impact on this week and this game.”

I actually quite like the idea of Smith at 15, but putting Farrell in at 10 is just risible.

Puja

Name the player....

1. He's a winner
2. He gets better and better
3. Incredible impact on those around him
4. Delivers game after game
5. Handles pressure like very few can
6. Any side is blessed to have him

Alternatively - to steal a line from Duran Duran; 'see them walking hand in hand across the bridge at midnight'

[Banquo]

what do these guys see when they see Farrell? He must rival J Edgar Hoover in terms of secret files on folks for this nonsense to be tripped out.

[p/d]

what do these guys see when they see Farrell? He must rival J Edgar Hoover in terms of secret files on folks for this nonsense to be tripped out.

absolutely no idea. I am all for 'bigging' a player up, but this is so far beyond that. Are the current group of players so bereft of the qualities required that it necessitates his influence to unite them. I think it is time to throw my hands up and say 'what the feck do I know'.

[TheDasher]

what do these guys see when they see Farrell? He must rival J Edgar Hoover in terms of secret files on folks for this nonsense to be tripped out.

If we're being kind, perhaps he is the only one with any character or balls at all. Maybe it's just that, perhaps in camp the others are so meek and mild it's ridiculous and this one guy therefore just stands out like an adult amongst kids. I don't know.

[Banquo]

what do these guys see when they see Farrell? He must rival J Edgar Hoover in terms of secret files on folks for this nonsense to be tripped out.

If we're being kind, perhaps he is the only one with any character or balls at all. Maybe it's just that, perhaps in camp the others are so meek and mild it's ridiculous and this one guy therefore just stands out like an adult amongst kids. I don't know.

gormless nightclub bouncer...

[morepork]

Character and balls? What a fucking handbrake.

[p/d]

what do these guys see when they see Farrell? He must rival J Edgar Hoover in terms of secret files on folks for this nonsense to be tripped out.

If we're being kind, perhaps he is the only one with any character or balls at all. Maybe it's just that, perhaps in camp the others are so meek and mild it's ridiculous and this one guy therefore just stands out like an adult amongst kids. I don't know.

gormless nightclub bouncer...

I would love to get the inner thoughts of Ford. That said he is probably so meek that when the question is asked of him he would most likely lose eye contact and start fiddling with his napkin.

[Spiffy]

If we're being kind, perhaps he is the only one with any character or balls at all. Maybe it's just that, perhaps in camp the others are so meek and mild it's ridiculous and this one guy therefore just stands out like an adult amongst kids. I don't know.

gormless nightclub bouncer...

I would love to get the inner thoughts of Ford. That said he is probably so meek that when the question is asked of him he would most likely lose eye contact and start fiddling with his napkin.

Poor old Ford. He is probably seething with his treatment by the England coaching staff, who are a bunch of clueless blinkered tools who continue to prove that they are not up to the job. He is always extremely supportive of the mighty Captain Marvel Ice Man in public, citing his leadership skills ettc... But George is not and idiot and will obviously know that he himself is the better fly half by a long chalk. Must be hard to stay buttoned up about it.

[Scrumhead]

Telegraph reporting similar lineup to the Heil. Fucking appalling; there appears to be literally nothing that can happen for Farrell to not be the first name on the team sheet because of his "intangibles".

“He’s a winner,” said attack coach Richard Wigglesworth, who played alongside Farrell in several finals for Saracens. “That term gets thrown around quite a bit. That is Owen. He, under the harshest of pressures and biggest of moments, tends to get better. That is a sign of a winner.

“He doesn’t just get better but has more of an impact on the people around him as well. We know what gets said about Owen. He’s the highest ever points-scorer for England, delivers time and time again, and those players tend to catch the most flak for some reason. We’ve got one of the best to do it. We’re lucky to have him. He will no doubt have a massive impact on this week and this game.”

I actually quite like the idea of Smith at 15, but putting Farrell in at 10 is just risible.

Puja

Name the player....

1. He's a winner
2. He gets better and better
3. Incredible impact on those around him
4. Delivers game after game
5. Handles pressure like very few can
6. Any side is blessed to have him

Alternatively - to steal a line from Duran Duran; 'see them walking hand in hand across the bridge at midnight'

WRT to Farrell:

1. He's a winner - as a point of fact - he is, although I’d very much question how much of those wins can be directly credited to his performances. Furthermore, his most successful period came whilst his team was involved in cheating so …

2. He gets better and better - err, no … he’s considerably worse than his best

3. Incredible impact on those around him - allegedly. I’ve never really seen that in action. If anything I’d argue that a lack of leadership has been one of our most damning failings and he’s the captain.

I’ll cite two specific examples here …

England started poorly in the 2019 RWC final. Did he rally the team and calm their nerves. No. It was close at half time, did he have an obvious impact in firing us up for the second half. No.

England had an awful first half last weekend. He was individually and keeping him on actively hurt the team to the point where he was timed out on a relatively easy kick …

4. Delivers game after game - like he did against Samoa?

5. Handles pressure like very few can - like he did against Samoa?

6. Any side is blessed to have him - wtih the possible exception of Fiji who don’t really have a 10 right now, I don’t think any of the other quarter finalists would pick him. I’m not even sure Fiji would.

[Banquo]

If we're being kind, perhaps he is the only one with any character or balls at all. Maybe it's just that, perhaps in camp the others are so meek and mild it's ridiculous and this one guy therefore just stands out like an adult amongst kids. I don't know.

gormless nightclub bouncer...

I would love to get the inner thoughts of Ford. That said he is probably so meek that when the question is asked of him he would most likely lose eye contact and start fiddling with his napkin.

meekness not a genetic trait then....

[francoisfou]

If the rumours are correct, then Stevie Blunder is more than living up to his name, as this selection blunder he will surely regret and it'll live with him for the rest of his career.
Absolutely brainless! The ever-patient England supporters should boycott the feckin match!

[Spiffy]

Telegraph reporting similar lineup to the Heil. Fucking appalling; there appears to be literally nothing that can happen for Farrell to not be the first name on the team sheet because of his "intangibles".



I actually quite like the idea of Smith at 15, but putting Farrell in at 10 is just risible.

Puja

Name the player....

1. He's a winner
2. He gets better and better
3. Incredible impact on those around him
4. Delivers game after game
5. Handles pressure like very few can
6. Any side is blessed to have him

Alternatively - to steal a line from Duran Duran; 'see them walking hand in hand across the bridge at midnight'

WRT to Farrell:

1. He's a winner - as a point of fact - he is, although I’d very much question how much of those wins can be directly credited to his performances. Furthermore, his most successful period came whilst his team was involved in cheating so …

2. He gets better and better - err, no … he’s considerably worse than his best

3. Incredible impact on those around him - allegedly. I’ve never really seen that in action. If anything I’d argue that a lack of leadership has been one of our most damning failings and he’s the captain.

I’ll cite two specific examples here …

England started poorly in the 2019 RWC final. Did he rally the team and calm their nerves. No. It was close at half time, did he have an obvious impact in firing us up for the second half. No.

England had an awful first half last weekend. He was individually and keeping him on actively hurt the team to the point where he was timed out on a relatively easy kick …

4. Delivers game after game - like he did against Samoa?

5. Handles pressure like very few can - like he did against Samoa?

6. Any side is blessed to have him - wtih the possible exception of Fiji who don’t really have a 10 right now, I don’t think any of the other quarter finalists would pick him. I’m not even sure Fiji would.

Re. point 3 - it could be argued that he DOES have an impact on those around him........................ a negative impact.

[Mellsblue]

For a winner he loses an awful lot, temper and games.
Remember that time he was winnering so much against Scotland that Ford had to drag us back to a draw after Farrell made so many mistakes that he almost winnered for Scotland. Remember when he was winnering so much at the 2015 World Cup that we got knocked out at the group stage losing all the matches he played at flyhalf (despite us coming second on points difference in the 6N with Ford at 10). Remember him winnering so much that England win a higher % of matches and score more points when Ford is at 10. What have we actually winnered with him as capt: one Six Nations and guess who was at flyhalf for every match other than vs Italy… yep, Ford.
The cult of personality that has somehow built up around him is bewildering.

[SixAndAHalf]

Name the player....

1. He's a winner
2. He gets better and better
3. Incredible impact on those around him
4. Delivers game after game
5. Handles pressure like very few can
6. Any side is blessed to have him

Alternatively - to steal a line from Duran Duran; 'see them walking hand in hand across the bridge at midnight'

WRT to Farrell:

1. He's a winner - as a point of fact - he is, although I’d very much question how much of those wins can be directly credited to his performances. Furthermore, his most successful period came whilst his team was involved in cheating so …

2. He gets better and better - err, no … he’s considerably worse than his best

3. Incredible impact on those around him - allegedly. I’ve never really seen that in action. If anything I’d argue that a lack of leadership has been one of our most damning failings and he’s the captain.

I’ll cite two specific examples here …

England started poorly in the 2019 RWC final. Did he rally the team and calm their nerves. No. It was close at half time, did he have an obvious impact in firing us up for the second half. No.

England had an awful first half last weekend. He was individually and keeping him on actively hurt the team to the point where he was timed out on a relatively easy kick …

4. Delivers game after game - like he did against Samoa?

5. Handles pressure like very few can - like he did against Samoa?

6. Any side is blessed to have him - wtih the possible exception of Fiji who don’t really have a 10 right now, I don’t think any of the other quarter finalists would pick him. I’m not even sure Fiji would.

Re. point 3 - it could be argued that he DOES have an impact on those around him........................ a negative impact.

The quotes from Wigglesworth are quite unbelievable - I'd view them as OTT if they were about Mccaw never mind Farrell.

If anyone has watched the weekly inside the camp videos on YouTube, its hard to see how he could deliver such an incredible impact - his "inspirational" talks are very much out of the book of u15s school boy rugby ("hit em hard lads") rather than Al Pacino.

[FKAS]

gormless nightclub bouncer...

I would love to get the inner thoughts of Ford. That said he is probably so meek that when the question is asked of him he would most likely lose eye contact and start fiddling with his napkin.

meekness not a genetic trait then....

I think it was Genge that told the story of Ford losing it at a video analysis meeting in the Murphy era at Tigers. Wasn't happy with the team performance and wasn't shy in telling some pretty blunt home truths. I suspect he doesn't like to say much in front of the camera but is more vocal normally. Might take after his mum a bit in that regard...

[Banquo]

I would love to get the inner thoughts of Ford. That said he is probably so meek that when the question is asked of him he would most likely lose eye contact and start fiddling with his napkin.

meekness not a genetic trait then....

I think it was Genge that told the story of Ford losing it at a video analysis meeting in the Murphy era at Tigers. Wasn't happy with the team performance and wasn't shy in telling some pretty blunt home truths. I suspect he doesn't like to say much in front of the camera but is more vocal normally. Might take after his mum a bit in that regard...

His dad and brothers are hardly shrinking violets...

[Danno]

If the rumours are correct, then Stevie Blunder is more than living up to his name, as this selection blunder he will surely regret and it'll live with him for the rest of his career.
Absolutely brainless! The ever-patient England supporters should boycott the feckin match!

Patient? I've had to order 3 new pitchforks from over-sharpenening each one in turn to mere stubs and it's only Wednesday

[Stom]

The biggest failing of the past decade of England is that George Ford has not gone down in history as an England legend.

He's ridiculously talented, but the mismanagement is insane.

Oh, and as a second thought...whoever said having Farrell on the bench for his 'reliable goal kicking'... I'm pretty sure Smith's kicking is better than Farrell's since Smith broke through. And that's saying something considering how hit and miss Smith was in his first season.

I'd love to see a breakdown of our ruck stats, too, with and without Lawes. I just can't get my head around him, either. He does perform well every now and again, but he still negatively impacts our breakdown. Oh, with and without Billy, too. It's just impossible not to think that a backrow with Curry, Earl, and Ludlam/another flank isn't going to be quick to rucks.

[Beasties]

The biggest failing of the past decade of England is that George Ford has not gone down in history as an England legend.

He's ridiculously talented, but the mismanagement is insane.

Oh, and as a second thought...whoever said having Farrell on the bench for his 'reliable goal kicking'... I'm pretty sure Smith's kicking is better than Farrell's since Smith broke through. And that's saying something considering how hit and miss Smith was in his first season.

I'd love to see a breakdown of our ruck stats, too, with and without Lawes. I just can't get my head around him, either. He does perform well every now and again, but he still negatively impacts our breakdown. Oh, with and without Billy, too. It's just impossible not to think that a backrow with Curry, Earl, and Ludlam/another flank isn't going to be quick to rucks.

There is so much that has been puzzling about Eng for many years. This WC campaign feels like SB’s gradually morphed into Eddie, and Eddie never left. I had high hopes that we’d see a better team and gameplan, but the brief hope at the start of the campaign has just had a big floppy heavy blanket thrown on top of it.

If Fiji actually get their act together they might win. That wouldn’t be the best outcome imo. I’m now actually hoping we get through so that SB selects the same team which will result in the inevitable utter rodgering in the SF, and that will bring about a real change of attitude from everyone involved. I’m beyond sick of this. How anyone can liken Farrell to Saint Jonny I have no idea, there really is no comparison.

[Stom]

The biggest failing of the past decade of England is that George Ford has not gone down in history as an England legend.

He's ridiculously talented, but the mismanagement is insane.

Oh, and as a second thought...whoever said having Farrell on the bench for his 'reliable goal kicking'... I'm pretty sure Smith's kicking is better than Farrell's since Smith broke through. And that's saying something considering how hit and miss Smith was in his first season.

I'd love to see a breakdown of our ruck stats, too, with and without Lawes. I just can't get my head around him, either. He does perform well every now and again, but he still negatively impacts our breakdown. Oh, with and without Billy, too. It's just impossible not to think that a backrow with Curry, Earl, and Ludlam/another flank isn't going to be quick to rucks.

There is so much that has been puzzling about Eng for many years. This WC campaign feels like SB’s gradually morphed into Eddie, and Eddie never left. I had high hopes that we’d see a better team and gameplan, but the brief hope at the start of the campaign has just had a big floppy heavy blanket thrown on top of it.

If Fiji actually get their act together they might win. That wouldn’t be the best outcome imo. I’m now actually hoping we get through so that SB selects the same team which will result in the inevitable utter rodgering in the SF, and that will bring about a real change of attitude from everyone involved. I’m beyond sick of this. How anyone can liken Farrell to Saint Jonny I have no idea, there really is no comparison.

Well no, as if we win, we'll have a playoff against Wales or Argentina...and those two are so poor we could well win it...that wouldn't be good.

We need Fiji to completely roger us. Which means Farrell starts, Farrell finishes. No red cards please Owen, otherwise we might win.

[Mr Mwenda]

The biggest failing of the past decade of England is that George Ford has not gone down in history as an England legend.

He's ridiculously talented, but the mismanagement is insane.

Oh, and as a second thought...whoever said having Farrell on the bench for his 'reliable goal kicking'... I'm pretty sure Smith's kicking is better than Farrell's since Smith broke through. And that's saying something considering how hit and miss Smith was in his first season.

I'd love to see a breakdown of our ruck stats, too, with and without Lawes. I just can't get my head around him, either. He does perform well every now and again, but he still negatively impacts our breakdown. Oh, with and without Billy, too. It's just impossible not to think that a backrow with Curry, Earl, and Ludlam/another flank isn't going to be quick to rucks.

There is so much that has been puzzling about Eng for many years. This WC campaign feels like SB’s gradually morphed into Eddie, and Eddie never left. I had high hopes that we’d see a better team and gameplan, but the brief hope at the start of the campaign has just had a big floppy heavy blanket thrown on top of it.

If Fiji actually get their act together they might win. That wouldn’t be the best outcome imo. I’m now actually hoping we get through so that SB selects the same team which will result in the inevitable utter rodgering in the SF, and that will bring about a real change of attitude from everyone involved. I’m beyond sick of this. How anyone can liken Farrell to Saint Jonny I have no idea, there really is no comparison.

It would be really interesting to see how plans changed. I believe that Covid caused a huge reset in strategy and it has been chaos ever since. My memory is fading but was it straight after the last world cup that there was that effort to have super quick ruck speed, which worked v Italy and no one else (Simmonds getting to tried)? I'd like to know why that was abandoned for an attempt to rehash 2019...

[Mikey Brown]

It’s still funny to me how quickly these threads gets OTT, with Farrell sounding like the worst player ever to be capped. It’s such a shame he was anointed near-god status so early on in his career and not forced to go away and work on the consistency of his passing, kicking, tackling - well everything, let’s be honest.

We joke about his poor passing particularly (media seemed to have turned on him over poor kicking but still never see this part of his game mentioned) but that showing on Saturday was just horrendous.

I was listening to a podcast with Sean Maitland the other day, saying how he is admittedly way, way too laid back on the pitch and especially in training, but Farrell’s presence “has me willing to run through walls for that guy”. Every moment gets your full focus and every training run gets test match intensity. It’s saccharine stuff but it does mean a lot.

It may be OTT but I don’t believe numerous players and coaches say this stuff just to suck up to him. I do think he has a huge motivating affect on those around him, but it may be more in line with Homer Simpson’s management style - “everybody always said they have to work a lot harder when I’m around”.

I can see why that is an absolute dream for a coach, but unfortunately it isn’t matched by the consistency of his skillset and his ability to direct/rally his team when the plan isn’t working. As well as the dearth at 12 leading to years of wonky, imbalanced midfields.

I think about that France game in the 6 nations where we were getting absolutely battered. You could feel the mood change a bit when he came on, and honestly when he made that move come together down the right it felt for a moment like all the fanboys might be right.

Again I don’t think he deserves to be starting, and the status he holds is damaging to everyone (including him) but I do think he’s a useful presence in the squad and the next best thing to being able to send a coach on to the field if a game-plan needs adjusting.

His problem has been when a game doesn’t play out the way it’s expected to he just continues hammering plan A into the ground. A coach seeing how it’s unfolding, where to attack and where to change things up, whether we need people to stop making easy yards down the 10 channel or get an extra set of eyes/hands to assist the flyhalf, does offer a lot of value.

I don’t really trust his ability to judge this stuff himself though.

Let’s also consider that while I rate Ford pretty much as highly as any of you he has also had dozens of game where he is just belting the ball away with little gain and losing ground in defence. You’d think he plays like that NZ/Scotland game every week.

[Beasties]

The biggest failing of the past decade of England is that George Ford has not gone down in history as an England legend.

He's ridiculously talented, but the mismanagement is insane.

Oh, and as a second thought...whoever said having Farrell on the bench for his 'reliable goal kicking'... I'm pretty sure Smith's kicking is better than Farrell's since Smith broke through. And that's saying something considering how hit and miss Smith was in his first season.

I'd love to see a breakdown of our ruck stats, too, with and without Lawes. I just can't get my head around him, either. He does perform well every now and again, but he still negatively impacts our breakdown. Oh, with and without Billy, too. It's just impossible not to think that a backrow with Curry, Earl, and Ludlam/another flank isn't going to be quick to rucks.

There is so much that has been puzzling about Eng for many years. This WC campaign feels like SB’s gradually morphed into Eddie, and Eddie never left. I had high hopes that we’d see a better team and gameplan, but the brief hope at the start of the campaign has just had a big floppy heavy blanket thrown on top of it.

If Fiji actually get their act together they might win. That wouldn’t be the best outcome imo. I’m now actually hoping we get through so that SB selects the same team which will result in the inevitable utter rodgering in the SF, and that will bring about a real change of attitude from everyone involved. I’m beyond sick of this. How anyone can liken Farrell to Saint Jonny I have no idea, there really is no comparison.

Well no, as if we win, we'll have a playoff against Wales or Argentina...and those two are so poor we could well win it...that wouldn't be good.

We need Fiji to completely roger us. Which means Farrell starts, Farrell finishes. No red cards please Owen, otherwise we might win.

Ah, I hadn’t thought that through had I? Jesus, have we got to wait yet another another week for the inevitable?

[Mellsblue]

It’s still funny to me how quickly these threads gets OTT, with Farrell sounding like the worst player ever to be capped. It’s such a shame he was anointed near-god status so early on in his career and not forced to go away and work on the consistency of his passing, kicking, tackling - well everything, let’s be honest.

We joke about his poor passing particularly (media seemed to have turned on him over poor kicking but still never see this part of his game mentioned) but that showing on Saturday was just horrendous.

I was listening to a podcast with Sean Maitland the other day, saying how he is admittedly way, way too laid back on the pitch and especially in training, but Farrell’s presence “has me willing to run through walls for that guy”. Every moment gets your full focus and every training run gets test match intensity. It’s saccharine stuff but it does mean a lot.

It may be OTT but I don’t believe numerous players and coaches say this stuff just to suck up to him. I do think he has a huge motivating affect on those around him, but it may be more in line with Homer Simpson’s management style - “everybody always said they have to work a lot harder when I’m around”.

I can see why that is an absolute dream for a coach, but unfortunately it isn’t matched by the consistency of his skillset and his ability to direct/rally his team when the plan isn’t working. As well as the dearth at 12 leading to years of wonky, imbalanced midfields.

I think about that France game in the 6 nations where we were getting absolutely battered. You could feel the mood change a bit when he came on, and honestly when he made that move come together down the right it felt for a moment like all the fanboys might be right.

Again I don’t think he deserves to be starting, and the status he holds is damaging to everyone (including him) but I do think he’s a useful presence in the squad and the next best thing to being able to send a coach on to the field if a game-plan needs adjusting.

His problem has been when a game doesn’t play out the way it’s expected to he just continues hammering plan A into the ground. A coach seeing how it’s unfolding, where to attack and where to change things up, whether we need people to stop making easy yards down the 10 channel or get an extra set of eyes/hands to assist the flyhalf, does offer a lot of value.

I don’t really trust his ability to judge this stuff himself though.

Let’s also consider that while I rate Ford pretty much as highly as any of you he has also had dozens of game where he is just belting the ball away with little gain and losing ground in defence. You’d think he plays like that NZ/Scotland game every week.

Yep, people overreact, and do so for Ford in the opposite direction, but it’s probably due to this mythical status he’s had for near on a decade - the need to pick him first and not worry about team balance started immediately: he was shoehorned into the England team at 20 years old at OC… OC ffs, he’s a slow flyhalf…
My personal dislike of the situation is twofold. Firstly, he’s blocked players who, imo, are more talented, eg Ford for England and Goode for Sarries. That might just be what I want in my 10 but I believe he’s blocked those two reaching their potential when he is inferior to both. Secondly, and this is the main one, is the fact he’s lionised due to he non playing qualities eg being a winner, a great leader of men, work rate etc. You never hear how he has the best pass in the country, the tactical acumen to change tactics as a game evolves etc which is the praise I want aimed at a 10. These leads on to how everyone hangs the praise for his playing talents on place kicking, eg when he misses a sitter but then nails the next one as proof of iceman status or consistent lauding of his place kicking acumen when in recent years Ford has a higher %, when this hasn’t been warranted for a while if ever - his kicking % has never been truly world class, ie 85% or above, iirc.
He’s a decent test player and a good club player, albeit with an armchair ride 90% of the time, but the idea he’s world class is for the birds imo.
Tldr, he’s elevation to this near undroppable status doesn’t feel meritocratic if based on on-field performance.

[Oakboy]

I've said it several times - we will see no real progress/development till BOTH Farrell and Ford are off the international scene.

On the one hand, apparently/reportedly, the more skilful FH, Ford, does not get enough out of the other players.

On the other hand, apparently/reportedly, Farrell, the less skilful FH, gets wonderful response from the other players - even though we cannot understand that and match performances/results rarely (if ever) reflect it.

Smith did not set the world alight when he had a few games at FH but he looks to me to be capable of more than he ever showed given the right selection around him, the right match strategy and the total, permanent absence from consideration of Farrell and Ford.