Game 4 : Scotland v Ireland

[Big D]

We aren't as good as Ireland and once again haven't seemingly tried anything different.

Some players were OKish, some were poor. Another world cup without doing anything telling.

Hopefully the injuries aren't bad.

[Cameo]

Bottom line is, we have players with enough skill and physicality to challenge anyone, but they let themselves down with inaccuracy, daft penalties and simple mistakes every single time. Against most teams our guys are good enough to get away with that over 80 minutes, but against Ireland (or SA, or Fra) we are going to be punished for mistakes. The relative merits of this or that player or combo is all very interesting but comes a distant second to just cutting out the mistakes that give control of the game to Ireland.

I don't agree with that. We have the players to challenge and we do. I don't think they underperformed or let themselves down any more than anyone else. It's the nature of the game that when you lose (especially when you lose to better teams), you can point to mistakes and penalties.

Take Damien Penaud tonight. Absolute genius and might win the World Cup for France. He makes mistakes every game though, some of them a bit daft.

I'd love a mistake free game and we need to keep them to a minimum, but if that is our focus we are doomed.

always love your positivity but it is usually misplaced, if you don't mind me saying.

It reads like you're being slightly contrary here, if we have the players to challenge and they don't let themselves down, how come we haven't beaten Ireland (or NZ or SA) in years? Either our players are good enough to beat those teams but don't because they let themselves down, or they aren't good enough to beat those teams. Can't have it both ways.

For the record, I'm of the opinion that our players are good enough to beat those teams, I'm not just being negative about Scotland's players or coaches, we absolutely could beat those teams. We don't because we make too many mistakes. We make the same mistakes against the likes of Italy, but they get swept under the carpet because we win against Italy (or, more recently Eng and Wales), but against the best there's no hiding when you give away the same ruck penalty you've been pinged for a hundred times, or knock on and gift them territory, or ignore a massive overlap. These are the things that we get away with against everyone else, but won't get away with this evening.

That's where you are misunderstanding me. I don't think we have the players to beat them apart from if our players have the game of their lives, the other team is a bit off, and we have a bit of luck.

I don't think we make an unusual amount of mistakes for the game we play and the players we have. We just can't get away with them and we have players who are being stretched closer to the limit of their ability. How many mistakes you make is part of how good you are.

[Jocky]

Cameo, is that not obvious? We couldn't win any part of the match when it mattered. Too arrogant to take penalties in offer when it would make a difference. We aren't good enough and that's hard to take although predictable. It's very frustrating although we have to accept where we are as team..

[BaldiePete]

I know we were likely to lose anyway but should we have kicked the penalties when we were 5-0 down? For me it’s poor decision making by Ritchie, there was no need to chase the game just because we lost an early try. Get something on the scoreboard when you have the chance against teams like Ireland, because they have a great defence and are very difficult to score tries against.

[paddy no 11]

Ye should definitely have taken the penalties

[Cameo]

Cameo, is that not obvious? We couldn't win any part of the match when it mattered. Too arrogant to take penalties in offer when it would make a difference. We aren't good enough and that's hard to take although predictable. It's very frustrating although we have to accept where we are as team..

Ah, I see. Yeah, we haven't won any part of this match.

I'm not taking the arrogant thing re the penalties though. Every team does their analysis and has a strategy on penalties. Disagree with decisions all you like, but it's not like they decided "let's go for tries because we'll look better that way". They decided to cmgo to the corner because they thought going for tries and keeping the pressure on rather than (hopefully) taking three and being back in our own half was their best chance (as plenty of other teams do).

Look, I'm fighting a losing battle here. I'm not saying we played well, though I honestly don't think we were terrible. All I'm really saying is that I don't see this as some moral failing or players having let themselves or anyone down. We've got a talented bunch and I think they are worth their fifth place in the world, but we need everything to go our way to beat the top four. They (and, in particular, Ireland and France) are absolute machines at the moment.

If you want some real negativity, I think we are likely on a downwards slide from here. We might have a couple more good years, but at the moment, it's not looking like there is that much coming through.

[Big D]

Ye should definitely have taken the penalties

The "penalties" was only really 3, maybe 6 points. Disagree with Jocky saying it was arrogant, it was the exact opposite. 3 or 6 off penalties was never going to be enough and we knew it. We didn't just have to beat Ireland, we had to win by 8. We had to be thinking how best to get to 25-30 points and holding Ireland to less than 18-20 was going to be nigh on impossible.

[Jocky]

Cameo, I agree with you regarding the future - this is our golden generation and with our lack of success/opportunity at age grade it's not looking good although it's probably not been much different in the past. Maybe arrogance is the wrong word but we really should be taking the points on offer so early in the game. It's tough because if we are on the other side of the draw and we are a lot more optimistic. We are 5th in the world but there's a big gap between the top four and us. We have to be able to adapt our game better and that starts in the forwards because it doesn't matter how good our backs are. I'm just a bit deflated atm - I should be used to it by now after my many years.

[paddy no 11]

Get a foothold in the game first, make Ireland think they can't give away ruck penalties or they'll be punished, there's 80 minutes to won a match but Scotland started losing it with those penalties

In general I agree there wasn't a great failing Ireland ate just better

[BaldiePete]

Ye should definitely have taken the penalties

The "penalties" was only really 3, maybe 6 points. Disagree with Jocky saying it was arrogant, it was the exact opposite. 3 or 6 off penalties was never going to be enough and we knew it. We didn't just have to beat Ireland, we had to win by 8. We had to be thinking how best to get to 25-30 points and holding Ireland to kess than 18-20 was going to be nigh on impossible.

Keeping close on the scoreboard changes the psychology of the game, it could have played out differently if we were keeping in touch. Whatever, it’s all in the past now, we were deservedly beaten by a better team, congratulations to Ireland.

[Big D]

Ye should definitely have taken the penalties

The "penalties" was only really 3, maybe 6 points. Disagree with Jocky saying it was arrogant, it was the exact opposite. 3 or 6 off penalties was never going to be enough and we knew it. We didn't just have to beat Ireland, we had to win by 8. We had to be thinking how best to get to 25-30 points and holding Ireland to kess than 18-20 was going to be nigh on impossible.

Keeping close on the scoreboard changes the psychology of the game, it could have played out differently if we were keeping in touch. Whatever, it’s all in the past now, we were deservedly beaten by a better team, congratulations to Ireland.

I honestly don't think being 5-3 rather than 5-0 that early in the game makes that big a difference v this Ireland team when we had to win by 8.

I see the logic in both approaches but imho we needed to hit the front to put any real pressure on them.

[Big D]

Main feeling tonight is hopefully the injuries aren't bad.

I thought Kinghorn might be on to a game after raking the 1st high ball surprisingly well.

[Mikey Brown]

I’m so lost. Gutted, but kind of okay? This does feel like the end of something, but maybe that’s a good thing. I normally hate the pride in defeat thing but actually thought it was incredible to keep going the way they did, having been so comprehensively outdone.

Sure there were plenty of bad moments, but even removing all of Ireland’s classy cheating we were just several leagues below, which is a fair reflection. I don’t know how to sum it up frankly. I feel like that performance would have beaten several sides making the quarterfinals, but you can only play what’s in front of you.

[Mikey Brown]

I’m so lost. Gutted, but kind of okay? This does feel like the end of something, but maybe that’s a good thing. I normally hate the pride in defeat thing but actually thought it was incredible to keep going the way they did, having been so comprehensively outdone.

Sure there were plenty of bad moments, but even removing all of Ireland’s classy cheating we were just several leagues below, which is a fair reflection. I don’t know how to sum it up frankly. I feel like that performance would have beaten several sides making the quarterfinals, but you can only play what’s in front of you.

Fucking hated seeing Ritchie and Kinghorn’s faces on the bench.

[Jocky]

Mikey Brown, I know how you feel and it's not an unfamiliar feeling despite how crap we have been in the past. On the other side of the draw we would have got further and then who knows. Reality is that there seems to be a large gap between the too four and us currently. With our infrastructure are we realistically going to ever compete with that? We punch above our weight and I know we want more, but we have to be realistic unless we majorly change the set-up. It's late and I'm drunkardly waffling. I expected better and feel the top teams don't have to do too much other wait for our mistakes to get control and win games. Games are dictated by the forwards and we lost that battle in both the crucial games and didn't matter how good our could be.

[Lizard]

Chins up, Scots. Going out in a pool not just 2 of the top 3, but of a top 3 by some distance, is not a disaster. This is still the brightest generation of Scottish rugby in at least the last 20 years. And possibly in the professional era.

[switchskier]

Well that was both awful and a great experience at the same time. We were outnumbered at least 2:1 by Irish fans, all of whom think that they're going to win the entire thing, none of whom were remotely concerned about the threat that we posed, and rightly.

I didn't mind the decision to kick for the corners early. Ireland never actually looked like threatening us from deep and we were keeping the ball really well. But, having shown a bit of resilience from the early try, you could see some players visibly deflate after they came away with nothing from those 13 minutes. It was really early, but that was the point in which the game was won.

Losing Ritchie felt big. We seem to be a very emotional team and they lost their heads and focus after the third try. I don't know if Ritchie is that guy but they needed a leader to step up and it didn't happen.

Finn tried his best but when he feels that it's all on him he pushes too hard. In the second half he was pushing for touches that weren't really there and trying to do something magical, rather than playing what was in front of him. He, and a couple of others (Graham/Tuitulopu/Turner) looked desperate. Many of the younger players heads went down.

Ireland are very good. But they didn't reply on moments of magic and this game showed that, in many ways, their wingers are superfluous to their game. They rarely had to commit many to rucks and there was always another man in the drift defence. Our game plan played right into their hands, allowing them to soak up pressure without ever allowing a clean break. Every time we did threaten to make it a bit unstructured, someone took a knee, they got themselves organised and win the next exchange. They might genuinely win the whole thing.

[paddy no 11]

What was the story with the Scottish kick offs last night dvdm chasing never made a tackle, Ireland easy clearance every time?

[Mikey Brown]

Don’t remember specifically what you mean. VDM just chasing and overshooting the catcher by miles? It’s a trademark of his to be honest.

[Big D]

What was the story with the Scottish kick offs last night dvdm chasing never made a tackle, Ireland easy clearance every time?

I think Ireland protected the catcher pretty well. The kicks were a little to deep too.

[paddy no 11]

They seemed very deep, a missed opportunity to apply pressure, dvdm didn't help

[switchskier]

Apparently we did win one thing this RWC (ok, shared with the Irish). 137,000 pints were drunk (spilled) at this match, the tournament record.