New and Improved EPS Watch/Player Form Thread

[Epaminondas Pules]

Not seen him play but he’s very young and inexperienced isn’t he? I feel like picking a player before you’ve seen how they deal with second season syndrome or recover from their first big dip in form isn’t worth it when you have those other options to try first.

This for me - give players a chance to suffer and recover from Second Season Syndrome (I love that this has become a thing I've even seen away from this board now), or not suffer and move up a gear, before selecting for international squads (vs BaaBaa.s aside).
Invite to training sessions? sure, but not with a view to capping them any time soon.

I largely agree but then you also look at the likes of Jenkins and Tshiunza who are now in double figures of caps and just getting better and better. Don’t think there’s a right or wrong way

[Which Tyler]

I'm of the opinion that they'd have continued their improvement if they'd waited an extra 6-9 months before getting their first cap.

I don't think (but it's impossible to prove) that anyone becomes a better player for being capped after/during their breakthrough season than they would have become had they waited until their 2nd Spring.
We have seen players (international careers) essentially ruined for being capped too early (though it's also impossible to prove that their career wouldn't have crashed and burned with severe SSS at club level alone)

[Epaminondas Pules]

Absolutely. I think exposure to the arena and what it takes to be an international is the key element. And then ease them in. But there countless successes and failures out there.

[fivepointer]

I think Fisilau's "got it" He seems to be someone who could handle the step up. However, at 8 we do have other options so there really isnt a need to rush him.
On the other hand, 12 is a long term problem position and i'd have no hesitation in getting Seb Atkinson involved with England this 6N's. He's got a bit of game time behind him and is another who i think could handle the step up.

[Mikey Brown]

I think Fisilau's "got it" He seems to be someone who could handle the step up. However, at 8 we do have other options so there really isnt a need to rush him.
On the other hand, 12 is a long term problem position and i'd have no hesitation in getting Seb Atkinson involved with England this 6N's. He's got a bit of game time behind him and is another who i think could handle the step up.

I really like what I've seen of Atkinson. Kelly to me looks to have that composure and all-round game (in addition to a couple of previous camps/caps) that I'd assume he is the first option to look at, but it would be great if Atkinson is ready for the step up. Not watched either of them this season yet though.

What's the "it" that Fisilau has? Please don't tell me it's running at gaps rather than straight at defenders.

[fivepointer]

I think Fisilau's "got it" He seems to be someone who could handle the step up. However, at 8 we do have other options so there really isnt a need to rush him.
On the other hand, 12 is a long term problem position and i'd have no hesitation in getting Seb Atkinson involved with England this 6N's. He's got a bit of game time behind him and is another who i think could handle the step up.

I really like what I've seen of Atkinson. Kelly to me looks to have that composure and all-round game (in addition to a couple of previous camps/caps) that I'd assume he is the first option to look at, but it would be great if Atkinson is ready for the step up. Not watched either of them this season yet though.

What's the "it" that Fisilau has? Please don't tell me it's running at gaps rather than straight at defenders.

Just get a feeling about a player. The decisions they make, how they react under pressure, their error count (his is amazingly low), their composure and all round skill set. He just looks a very good all round player with no obvious weakness.

[Puja]

I think Fisilau's "got it" He seems to be someone who could handle the step up. However, at 8 we do have other options so there really isnt a need to rush him.
On the other hand, 12 is a long term problem position and i'd have no hesitation in getting Seb Atkinson involved with England this 6N's. He's got a bit of game time behind him and is another who i think could handle the step up.

I really like what I've seen of Atkinson. Kelly to me looks to have that composure and all-round game (in addition to a couple of previous camps/caps) that I'd assume he is the first option to look at, but it would be great if Atkinson is ready for the step up. Not watched either of them this season yet though.

What's the "it" that Fisilau has? Please don't tell me it's running at gaps rather than straight at defenders.

I am still unsure about Kelly. He's a decent player, but I think people watch certain players trying to see what they want to see sometimes, and what they desperately want to see is an English 12 who's not Manu or Fazlet. To a lesser extent, I'd say the same is true of SAtkinson (although I believe he will be able to step up given time). I think both of them would be *fine* if picked at 12 for England, but not actively good, which is what I think people are hoping for them to be.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

Oh yeah I’m absolutely guilty of that, particularly at 8, 9, 12.

[Puja]

Oh yeah I’m absolutely guilty of that, particularly at 8, 9, 12.

Name me a person on here who isn't!

Puja

[FKAS]

With Kelly I'd say that in form he could probably step up to international rugby and be an asset. Not sure he's in that kind of form at the minute though. Needs to get back to his best before he's getting a call up.

Whilst we're all in favour of anyone but Farrell I do think England will need to blood some new centres come the 6N so at some point we will just have to take the plunge and back some of them to make a go of it. Unless the plan for the 6N is to revert to one of the most one paced midfields England has ever had in Ford, Farrell and Slade though Borthwick likes many playmakers in the backline he does prefer at least one running threat in the centres unlike Eddie.

[Puja]

With Kelly I'd say that in form he could probably step up to international rugby and be an asset. Not sure he's in that kind of form at the minute though. Needs to get back to his best before he's getting a call up.

Whilst we're all in favour of anyone but Farrell I do think England will need to blood some new centres come the 6N so at some point we will just have to take the plunge and back some of them to make a go of it. Unless the plan for the 6N is to revert to one of the most one paced midfields England has ever had in Ford, Farrell and Slade though Borthwick likes many playmakers in the backline he does prefer at least one running threat in the centres unlike Eddie.

Fair. And let's not forget that Tompkins and Harris were just "okay Premiership quality" centres before getting poached by the Celts and, with consistent exposure to the international scene and focussed coaching, have turned into B&I Lions.

What I'd like to avoid is Kelly getting given 3 games, not hugely impressing, being dropped, and then everyone on the board moving on to the new shiny thing.

Puja

[Scrumhead]

I remember the first time I watched Seb Atkinson play. I believe it was his first start for Worcester. He faced down Andre Esterhuizen (who was on top form at that point) and more than held his own. For a kid, hat is mightily impressive and while he hasn’t necessarily shot the lights out, he’s been quietly and consistently good.

Kelly is possibly a bit better today, but I suspect Atkinson has more long term potential.

[FKAS]

I remember the first time I watched Seb Atkinson play. I believe it was his first start for Worcester. He faced down Andre Esterhuizen (who was on top form at that point) and more than held his own. For a kid, hat is mightily impressive and while he hasn’t necessarily shot the lights out, he’s been quietly and consistently good.

Quins did the same thing last season against Glaws. Ran the big South African down Atkinson's channel, really targeted him and got nowhere. Really good tackle technique from Atkinson, reminds me a bit of Ant Allen. Not the biggest guy but is just quietly efficient and makes those around him look better.

Kelly played 13 though the age grade system, he moved to 12 at Tigers. We could potentially play both though there's some good options at 13 around currently.

[Epaminondas Pules]

I think Atkinson is ready now. He's showing all the elements of an international centre. Yes he's got areas to improve, but that's every player. There's no glaring weaknesses, and exposure to the top tier will do him the world of good. He's established himself as their starting 12, and is consistently making intelligent interventions.

I'd also have Kelly in the squad. The more exposure they get to what is needed to thrive at this level the better.

[Which Tyler]

Kelly 100% is ready now, just needs to return to form.
I'd say that if Atkinson is still in good form in a couple of months, then the coming 6N is the right time to start introducing him.
The other name I'd mention is Ojomoh - yes, he's "behind" Redpath and Lawrence, but he's still getting a surprising amount of (AKA enough for me) game time.

The other name I'd want to throw into the ring at IC is Ollie Hartley - who I think will be having his breakthrough season this year (but wasn't eligible for the Prem predictions thread ). This 6N would be too early for him, but invite him into the squad for some training, and 6N 2025 he should be ready to start capping - if all goes well.


What's the betting that, come 2027 we'll have a glut of natural ICs, but bemoaning having to shift some to play out of position at OC?

[Epaminondas Pules]

Kelly 100% is ready now, just needs to return to form.
I'd say that if Atkinson is still in good form in a couple of months, then the coming 6N is the right time to start introducing him.
The other name I'd mention is Ojomoh - yes, he's "behind" Redpath and Lawrence, but he's still getting a surprising amount of (AKA enough for me) game time.

The other name I'd want to throw into the ring at IC is Ollie Hartley - who I think will be having his breakthrough season this year (but wasn't eligible for the Prem predictions thread ). This 6N would be too early for him, but invite him into the squad for some training, and 6N 2025 he should be ready to start capping - if all goes well.


What's the betting that, come 2027 we'll have a glut of natural ICs, but bemoaning having to shift some to play out of position at OC?

Agree with both of those. Hartley probably the furthest back of the four, but that will come with game time.

[Puja]

The other name I'd want to throw into the ring at IC is Ollie Hartley - who I think will be having his breakthrough season this year (but wasn't eligible for the Prem predictions thread ). This 6N would be too early for him, but invite him into the squad for some training, and 6N 2025 he should be ready to start capping - if all goes well.

He was eligible for the predictions thread - I predicted him!

I'm hopeful on Hartley getting in as an apprentice to the EPS this year as well - there's not an obvious big name blocking his route to the Sarries 12 shirt and, if there's one thing Saracens know, it's how to bring on young talent. If he keeps his place when the RWC players come back, he's got a decent chance.

Puja

[FKAS]

The other name I'd want to throw into the ring at IC is Ollie Hartley - who I think will be having his breakthrough season this year (but wasn't eligible for the Prem predictions thread ). This 6N would be too early for him, but invite him into the squad for some training, and 6N 2025 he should be ready to start capping - if all goes well.

He was eligible for the predictions thread - I predicted him!

I'm hopeful on Hartley getting in as an apprentice to the EPS this year as well - there's not an obvious big name blocking his route to the Sarries 12 shirt and, if there's one thing Saracens know, it's how to bring on young talent. If he keeps his place when the RWC players come back, he's got a decent chance.

Puja

I suspect Tompkins will prove difficult to budge. He's not been a massive success on the international stage but he's always been reliably good for Sarries. If Hartley can push him out of the starting line up he'll be ready for contention.

[Banquo]

The other name I'd want to throw into the ring at IC is Ollie Hartley - who I think will be having his breakthrough season this year (but wasn't eligible for the Prem predictions thread ). This 6N would be too early for him, but invite him into the squad for some training, and 6N 2025 he should be ready to start capping - if all goes well.

He was eligible for the predictions thread - I predicted him!

I'm hopeful on Hartley getting in as an apprentice to the EPS this year as well - there's not an obvious big name blocking his route to the Sarries 12 shirt and, if there's one thing Saracens know, it's how to bring on young talent. If he keeps his place when the RWC players come back, he's got a decent chance.

Puja

I suspect Tompkins will prove difficult to budge. He's not been a massive success on the international stage but he's always been reliably good for Sarries. If Hartley can push him out of the starting line up he'll be ready for contention.

We'd have been a ton better had Tompkins been playing 12 for us. I think he's been better than solid for Wales (he was poor at 13, I grant you).

[Puja]

The other name I'd want to throw into the ring at IC is Ollie Hartley - who I think will be having his breakthrough season this year (but wasn't eligible for the Prem predictions thread ). This 6N would be too early for him, but invite him into the squad for some training, and 6N 2025 he should be ready to start capping - if all goes well.

He was eligible for the predictions thread - I predicted him!

I'm hopeful on Hartley getting in as an apprentice to the EPS this year as well - there's not an obvious big name blocking his route to the Sarries 12 shirt and, if there's one thing Saracens know, it's how to bring on young talent. If he keeps his place when the RWC players come back, he's got a decent chance.

Puja

I suspect Tompkins will prove difficult to budge. He's not been a massive success on the international stage but he's always been reliably good for Sarries. If Hartley can push him out of the starting line up he'll be ready for contention.

...for some reason I had thought Tompkins was still playing in Wales. Never mind.

Puja

[FKAS]

He was eligible for the predictions thread - I predicted him!

I'm hopeful on Hartley getting in as an apprentice to the EPS this year as well - there's not an obvious big name blocking his route to the Sarries 12 shirt and, if there's one thing Saracens know, it's how to bring on young talent. If he keeps his place when the RWC players come back, he's got a decent chance.

Puja

I suspect Tompkins will prove difficult to budge. He's not been a massive success on the international stage but he's always been reliably good for Sarries. If Hartley can push him out of the starting line up he'll be ready for contention.

We'd have been a ton better had Tompkins been playing 12 for us. I think he's been better than solid for Wales (he was poor at 13, I grant you).

Yeah both Tompkins and Johnny Williams playing for Wales after coming through the English system was a blow at a time we were desperate for an actual 12. Tompkins seems to the going better in the Gatland system suits him a bit more than what Pivac was trying to do.

[Mellsblue]

In the case of Itoje’s workrate vs Itoje’s highlight reel I submit exhibit f:

https://x.com/samlstandsup/status/17193 ... MV3j-SK8yQ

[Puja]

That is an outstanding statistic. Not a single penalty concede or missed clearout at a ruck from 187 ruck entries - given how penalty-prone he was just a couple of seasons ago, that is incredible work. Wasn't like he stopped competing for the ball either, as he came up with some fairly important turnovers in the tournament as well.

Puja

[Banquo]

That is an outstanding statistic. Not a single penalty concede or missed clearout at a ruck from 187 ruck entries - given how penalty-prone he was just a couple of seasons ago, that is incredible work. Wasn't like he stopped competing for the ball either, as he came up with some fairly important turnovers in the tournament as well.

Puja

No no no. He's totally fallen away from the player he was, irrespective of what has actually happened. C'mon Maro, there must be more you can do.

[Epaminondas Pules]

I do always take Sam's stuff with a little pinch of salt....it's the replies that matter

https://x.com/SamLStandsUp/status/16906 ... 02656?s=20