New and Improved EPS Watch/Player Form Thread

[Banquo]

talking of individuals like Dombrandt 'failing' after what 7 caps...in a shoite team......seems odd. I'm not especially a fan, nor of someone like OHC, but give em a fckin chance.

[Which Tyler]

I guess I'm failing to be very clear here. I'm not suggesting we pick that 6-10 combo at all, just that we lost a couple of years of potential selection for someone like Mercer* in a more settled, experienced unit. We've got all these guys like Willis, Mercer, Barbeary, Murley, Atkinson, Freeman etc. who might be playing well enough to deserve a spot, but many of them would be getting introduced to the team alongside other newbies. That's all I was getting at.

*I can't even remember if he was in the RWC training squads or not though, but clearly hadn't convinced Borthwick for whatever reason.

Sorry, I'd thought you were saying that we shouldn't pick inexperienced players, because that'd mean lots of inexperienced players, and thus inexperienced units, which would be bad.

I'm all up for bitching about Eddie's mismanagement, and Silly Bollocks' doubling down on that (hopefully temporarily)

[p/d]

But is Spencer in or not…….. I need to know

[Oakboy]

talking of individuals like Dombrandt 'failing' after what 7 caps...in a shoite team......seems odd. I'm not especially a fan, nor of someone like OHC, but give em a fckin chance.

But, in Dombrandt's case, was a whole 6N not a reasonable chance to the extent that it is someone else's turn for a similar run of games? There are only so many international games.

[Oakboy]

But is Spencer in or not…….. I need to know

Probably not, perhaps or maybe??

[p/d]

Out of interest if our criteria for selection was form based only would we end up with a good mix of experience and newbies

[p/d]

But is Spencer in or not…….. I need to know

Probably not, perhaps or maybe??

That’s my gut feel.

[Banquo]

talking of individuals like Dombrandt 'failing' after what 7 caps...in a shoite team......seems odd. I'm not especially a fan, nor of someone like OHC, but give em a fckin chance.

But, in Dombrandt's case, was a whole 6N not a reasonable chance to the extent that it is someone else's turn for a similar run of games? There are only so many international games.

not really, we were gash.

[FKAS]

talking of individuals like Dombrandt 'failing' after what 7 caps...in a shoite team......seems odd. I'm not especially a fan, nor of someone like OHC, but give em a fckin chance.

But, in Dombrandt's case, was a whole 6N not a reasonable chance to the extent that it is someone else's turn for a similar run of games? There are only so many international games.

not really, we were gash.

Dombrant being one of the chief gash players through. Dude has 15 caps and hasn't shown the relentless work rate or ability to break the line that you'd expect from an international number 8. He's a clever and skillful player but on prior performances hasn't shown he can bring his club performances to the international stage.

[Margin_Walker]

Sure I've read similar, albeit clearly he's not in the frame to ever play for France as it stands, no matter how long he's there for. Scotland and Wales maybe...

Only mention it because of the press articles (fallible I know) confidently stating that JIFF was a possibility for him in 3. This was from the Times:

Arundell's value will rise in France at the end of his new contract. In France if a player, regardless of their nationality, joins a club while or before they are 20 and stay for three years, they become classed as a homegrown player, or a joueurs issus des filières de formation (JIFF). That is important as each Top 14 club must have an average of 16 JIFF players in their match-day 23-man squads across the league season, or face punishments. If they average more than 16 they gain financial credits.

Midol also suggesting the same in this

https://www.rugbyrama.fr/2023/12/09/tra ... 632192.php

I'm confused now (happens regularly in my advancing years ) If he's now considered, at the age of 21, as a product of Racing's development squad then he could play for France in three years' time? If that's true, so much the better for Henri and for the XV de France!

I'd love to see him at fullback for les Bleus with Penaud and Bielle-Biarrey on the wings!

Road to JIFF status outlined here. Relied on him signing an Espoirs contract before 21 and extending that.

https://actu.fr/ile-de-france/nanterre_ ... 58259.html

[Banquo]

But, in Dombrandt's case, was a whole 6N not a reasonable chance to the extent that it is someone else's turn for a similar run of games? There are only so many international games.

not really, we were gash.

Dombrant being one of the chief gash players through. Dude has 15 caps and hasn't shown the relentless work rate or ability to break the line that you'd expect from an international number 8. He's a clever and skillful player but on prior performances hasn't shown he can bring his club performances to the international stage.

my apols, thought he only had 7. General point stands- cant write off any players...bar porter obvs...based on a couple of nondescript efforts in a gash team. Even 15 in a gash environment could have some leeway.

[Puja]

Itoje is due to re-sign with Saracens, with his salary getting bolstered by £160k in hybrid contract, according to the Telegraph. Jamie George is also getting the same deal, which is less exciting, but I'm okay with making the young talent work to push him out of the XV. If they want the shirt, they'll have to get good enough to displace him.

Puja

[FKAS]

Itoje is due to re-sign with Saracens, with his salary getting bolstered by £160k in hybrid contract, according to the Telegraph. Jamie George is also getting the same deal, which is less exciting, but I'm okay with making the young talent work to push him out of the XV. If they want the shirt, they'll have to get good enough to displace him.

Puja

Wow, RFU step in and help Sarries cheat the cap in a new way. That's going to go down oh so well unless other hybrid deals come in for other Prem teams.

Banquo, 15 caps and name one where he's shown signs of physical dominance. The nature of the team does give some leeway but at the same time he played with Care and Smith on tandem just like at Quins and my abiding memory is him overrunning the passes from Smith. He's had chances others may well now get a chance ahead of him and he can't complain if they do.

[Puja]

Itoje is due to re-sign with Saracens, with his salary getting bolstered by £160k in hybrid contract, according to the Telegraph. Jamie George is also getting the same deal, which is less exciting, but I'm okay with making the young talent work to push him out of the XV. If they want the shirt, they'll have to get good enough to displace him.

Puja

Wow, RFU step in and help Sarries cheat the cap in a new way. That's going to go down oh so well unless other hybrid deals come in for other Prem teams.

Well, we already know Leicester are getting one with Watson and presumably whomever else is in Stall Benightedly's core group will get one - they're supposed to be replacing EPS match fees, so players have consistency of income and don't worry about trying to play through injuries to pay their mortgage, etc. I guess if you don't want Saracens to get all the contracts, start producing more core players of the squad?

Puja

[Mellsblue]

There are going to be circa 25 hybrid contracts aren’t there?

[Which Tyler]

There are going to be circa 25 hybrid contracts aren’t there?

Supposedly.
First two have leaked, but none are announced. I'll save any bile for the unfairness of the distribution until we know who's getting them all, and the details of what they actually mean.

I do feel that 25 is an awkward number, and that they should encourage a more even spread of talent throughout the premiership, but that's not really practical from a "what England want/need" point of view.

If what Puja said is right, that the aim is essentially to smooth appearance fees, then they don't really need to even pay lip service to my instincts.
It does make sense with what has leaked through the press - IIRC £160k is 8 matches, whilst the core group would expect 10x£20k each year, IF fit, but dropping a little for the sake of selectorial quirks.

[FKAS]

Itoje is due to re-sign with Saracens, with his salary getting bolstered by £160k in hybrid contract, according to the Telegraph. Jamie George is also getting the same deal, which is less exciting, but I'm okay with making the young talent work to push him out of the XV. If they want the shirt, they'll have to get good enough to displace him.

Puja

Wow, RFU step in and help Sarries cheat the cap in a new way. That's going to go down oh so well unless other hybrid deals come in for other Prem teams.

Well, we already know Leicester are getting one with Watson and presumably whomever else is in Stall Benightedly's core group will get one - they're supposed to be replacing EPS match fees, so players have consistency of income and don't worry about trying to play through injuries to pay their mortgage, etc. I guess if you don't want Saracens to get all the contracts, start producing more core players of the squad?

Puja

There's always going to be contentious decisions about who gets the contracts though. If you're say Falcons and struggling to make ends meat already how happy are you going to be if Radwan and Blamire, two strong England prospects are overlooked in favour of the likes of say Malins and George. Players who arguably aren't that good or whom are coming to the end of their careers for clubs who have backers paying cash in.

I mean possibly very beneficial to us as Tigers fans given the likes of Martin, Chessum, JVP, Cole, Steward etc are all likely in the running. Creates a possible two tier system it's hard to come back from though as Sarries now have an artificially cheap players in Itoje and George which then possibly frees up cap to maybe go and tempt someone like Radwan from Falcons.

I'd have preferred the RFU to go with each club getting two hybrid contracts they can apply to homegrown England internationals that have been capped at some point in the last two years. Then five wildcards selected by the England manager. Prem clubs get the chance to try and retain their best homegrown talent and the RFU protects the best that's moved about a bit.

[Mellsblue]

There are going to be circa 25 hybrid contracts aren’t there?

I'll save any bile for the unfairness of the distribution until we know who's getting them all, and the details of what they actually mean.

Steady. This sort of behaviour will get you banned from RR.

[Puja]

Good to hear Mercer is fit again, though he does somehow seem to have become a top class international in the time since his one underwhelming England appearance.

Amazing isn’t it.

Hasn’t he got short arms, as such not much of a line out option.

Tiny-Arms is starting against Clermont this weekend, which is an incredible turn-around after his injury.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

I see Watson and Martin are named for Leicester, which is good news.

What’s the deal with Hatherall? I feel like people were raving about him when he was at Worcester but not sure I’ve noticed him much for Tigers?

[Puja]

What’s the deal with Hatherall? I feel like people were raving about him when he was at Worcester but not sure I’ve noticed him much for Tigers?

I've been thoroughly underwhelmed and I wasn't expecting much when we signed him. Looks like the usual decent-ish player that Worcester made look better than they were with excellent teamwork and very solid patterns, who inevitably disappoints when he goes to somewhere bigger, cf. Denton, Spencer, Mullen, etc.

Puja

[Which Tyler]

Spencer

Seems harsh - an excellent club player when fit... Issue was fitness.

[Banquo]

Itoje is due to re-sign with Saracens, with his salary getting bolstered by £160k in hybrid contract, according to the Telegraph. Jamie George is also getting the same deal, which is less exciting, but I'm okay with making the young talent work to push him out of the XV. If they want the shirt, they'll have to get good enough to displace him.

Puja

Wow, RFU step in and help Sarries cheat the cap in a new way. That's going to go down oh so well unless other hybrid deals come in for other Prem teams.

Banquo, 15 caps and name one where he's shown signs of physical dominance. The nature of the team does give some leeway but at the same time he played with Care and Smith on tandem just like at Quins and my abiding memory is him overrunning the passes from Smith. He's had chances others may well now get a chance ahead of him and he can't complain if they do.

er, if you notice, I pivoted to making a general point....ie don't write players off if they aren't tearing up trees in a sh+t team; I accept that 15 is a quite few tho, and as noted I'm no Dombrandt fan.

[FKAS]

Itoje is due to re-sign with Saracens, with his salary getting bolstered by £160k in hybrid contract, according to the Telegraph. Jamie George is also getting the same deal, which is less exciting, but I'm okay with making the young talent work to push him out of the XV. If they want the shirt, they'll have to get good enough to displace him.

Puja

Wow, RFU step in and help Sarries cheat the cap in a new way. That's going to go down oh so well unless other hybrid deals come in for other Prem teams.

Banquo, 15 caps and name one where he's shown signs of physical dominance. The nature of the team does give some leeway but at the same time he played with Care and Smith on tandem just like at Quins and my abiding memory is him overrunning the passes from Smith. He's had chances others may well now get a chance ahead of him and he can't complain if they do.

er, if you notice, I pivoted to making a general point....ie don't write players off if they aren't tearing up trees in a sh+t team; I accept that 15 is a quite few tho, and as noted I'm no Dombrandt fan.

I'm not writing Dombrant off, I'm open to him still potentially being a success at international level but there's no point pretending there's an excuse for what has gone previously. He's disappointed.

Players change and develop over time so I'd write off few.

[Banquo]

Wow, RFU step in and help Sarries cheat the cap in a new way. That's going to go down oh so well unless other hybrid deals come in for other Prem teams.

Banquo, 15 caps and name one where he's shown signs of physical dominance. The nature of the team does give some leeway but at the same time he played with Care and Smith on tandem just like at Quins and my abiding memory is him overrunning the passes from Smith. He's had chances others may well now get a chance ahead of him and he can't complain if they do.

er, if you notice, I pivoted to making a general point....ie don't write players off if they aren't tearing up trees in a sh+t team; I accept that 15 is a quite few tho, and as noted I'm no Dombrandt fan.

I'm not writing Dombrant off, I'm open to him still potentially being a success at international level but there's no point pretending there's an excuse for what has gone previously. He's disappointed.

Players change and develop over time so I'd write off few.

The point appears to be flying well over your head. I stopped making a specific of dombrandt two posts ago....and I didn`t say you`d written anyone off, not that it matters if you or even I do