Scotland vs England - minute-by-minute

[Puja]

I did say in the Italy version of this thread that Italy were really building something and that people were taking them too lightly when getting outraged at the close result in week 1. They could be looking at 4th place this 6N, possibly even third, if results go their way.

Full house in the stadium as well. Things looking bright for Italian rugby.

Puja

[Danno]

Like

[16th man]

I had a tenner on them to beat the, frankly silly, +11 handicap. Wish I'd gone for them to win as that was 7/2, showing some people hadn't been watching them play.

[Which Tyler]

I will note that, should we get utterly humped by Ireland, it's unlikely I will do a m-b-m. I get some enjoyment out of doing it from a defeat where I think I might learn something about why we lost and where the green shoots of hope might be, but if "Why we lost" is "Because they're a lot better than us and walked all over us", then I might take a pass!

Puja

Thankfully, this did not come to pass.

I'd be particularly interested in the assessment of Ford. He's taken a hell of a lot of flak today, but I felt he was integral to us actually trying things, but had a (very) bad day with the boot.
I generally think this board is better than judging a FH by his kicking only, so am wondering what I missed - and I was being distracted by guests, so most certainly did miss things.

[16th man]

I will note that, should we get utterly humped by Ireland, it's unlikely I will do a m-b-m. I get some enjoyment out of doing it from a defeat where I think I might learn something about why we lost and where the green shoots of hope might be, but if "Why we lost" is "Because they're a lot better than us and walked all over us", then I might take a pass!

Puja

Thankfully, this did not come to pass.

I'd be particularly interested in the assessment of Ford. He's taken a hell of a lot of flak today, but I felt he was integral to us actually trying things, but had a (very) bad day with the boot.
I generally think this board is better than judging a FH by his kicking only, so am wondering what I missed - and I was being distracted by guests, so most certainly did miss things.

To be fair he was decent ball in hand, but in a game that was always going to be tight, a highly experienced 10 kicking at @ 30% off the tee isn't going to get much forgiveness.

[Puja]

Definitely will be doing the m-b-m, in case anyone's unsure

I had a tenner on them to beat the, frankly silly, +11 handicap. Wish I'd gone for them to win as that was 7/2, showing some people hadn't been watching them play.

I have an accumulator going for this weekend on Italy, England, and France outright, so hoping for Les Bleus to do the business tomorrow.

Puja

[Danno]

You're doing Eng Ire right.

Right.

RIGHT??!!

[16th man]

Definitely will be doing the m-b-m, in case anyone's unsure

I had a tenner on them to beat the, frankly silly, +11 handicap. Wish I'd gone for them to win as that was 7/2, showing some people hadn't been watching them play.

I have an accumulator going for this weekend on Italy, England, and France outright, so hoping for Les Bleus to do the business tomorrow.

Puja

That must be quite a tidy return if it comes in.

[Danno]

I will note that, should we get utterly humped by Ireland, it's unlikely I will do a m-b-m. I get some enjoyment out of doing it from a defeat where I think I might learn something about why we lost and where the green shoots of hope might be, but if "Why we lost" is "Because they're a lot better than us and walked all over us", then I might take a pass!

Puja

Thankfully, this did not come to pass.

I'd be particularly interested in the assessment of Ford. He's taken a hell of a lot of flak today, but I felt he was integral to us actually trying things, but had a (very) bad day with the boot.
I generally think this board is better than judging a FH by his kicking only, so am wondering what I missed - and I was being distracted by guests, so most certainly did miss things.

To be fair he was decent ball in hand, but in a game that was always going to be tight, a highly experienced 10 kicking at @ 30% off the tee isn't going to get much forgiveness.

Two absolutely shocking DG attempts as well, at least one very soon after we had pen advantage (like 1 or phases, so no real opportunity to build anything). Pretty sure he then smashed the pen wide. I'm still convinced his leg injury is a much bigger issue than anyone will admit because he's brilliant at the line but can't kick or run anymore.

[Puja]

Definitely will be doing the m-b-m, in case anyone's unsure

I had a tenner on them to beat the, frankly silly, +11 handicap. Wish I'd gone for them to win as that was 7/2, showing some people hadn't been watching them play.

I have an accumulator going for this weekend on Italy, England, and France outright, so hoping for Les Bleus to do the business tomorrow.

Puja

That must be quite a tidy return if it comes in.

25p will get me £8.57 if the French do the business. Oh yes, I am the last of the big gamblers.

Ladbrokes are tempting me with cashing out and getting £5.13. Not sure whether I ought to or not - don't know if I trust the French while they're where they are.

Puja

[Spiffy]

Thankfully, this did not come to pass.

I'd be particularly interested in the assessment of Ford. He's taken a hell of a lot of flak today, but I felt he was integral to us actually trying things, but had a (very) bad day with the boot.
I generally think this board is better than judging a FH by his kicking only, so am wondering what I missed - and I was being distracted by guests, so most certainly did miss things.

To be fair he was decent ball in hand, but in a game that was always going to be tight, a highly experienced 10 kicking at @ 30% off the tee isn't going to get much forgiveness.

Two absolutely shocking DG attempts as well, at least one very soon after we had pen advantage (like 1 or phases, so no real opportunity to build anything). Pretty sure he then smashed the pen wide. I'm still convinced his leg injury is a much bigger issue than anyone will admit because he's brilliant at the line but can't kick or run anymore.

I feel for George Ford. An outstanding fly half on his day whose career suffered by being paired up with Farrell at 12. He is past his peak now and on the way down, whether due to injury, age etc.. He should probably retire from international rugby and be remembered for the great stuff before sub par performances cloud the memory of how good he was. A shame he never got a Lions tour. Under slightly different circumstances he could have been an all-time England great.

[Banquo]

I had a tenner on them to beat the, frankly silly, +11 handicap. Wish I'd gone for them to win as that was 7/2, showing some people hadn't been watching them play.

My mate had Italy, England and wales to win; he's wondering whether to cash out now or see if he nets a whopper...

[Banquo]

I will note that, should we get utterly humped by Ireland, it's unlikely I will do a m-b-m. I get some enjoyment out of doing it from a defeat where I think I might learn something about why we lost and where the green shoots of hope might be, but if "Why we lost" is "Because they're a lot better than us and walked all over us", then I might take a pass!

Puja

Thankfully, this did not come to pass.

I'd be particularly interested in the assessment of Ford. He's taken a hell of a lot of flak today, but I felt he was integral to us actually trying things, but had a (very) bad day with the boot.
I generally think this board is better than judging a FH by his kicking only, so am wondering what I missed - and I was being distracted by guests, so most certainly did miss things.

he was very good ball in hand.

[Mellsblue]

I will note that, should we get utterly humped by Ireland, it's unlikely I will do a m-b-m. I get some enjoyment out of doing it from a defeat where I think I might learn something about why we lost and where the green shoots of hope might be, but if "Why we lost" is "Because they're a lot better than us and walked all over us", then I might take a pass!

Puja

Thankfully, this did not come to pass.

I'd be particularly interested in the assessment of Ford. He's taken a hell of a lot of flak today, but I felt he was integral to us actually trying things, but had a (very) bad day with the boot.
I generally think this board is better than judging a FH by his kicking only, so am wondering what I missed - and I was being distracted by guests, so most certainly did miss things.

he was very good ball in hand.

Agreed.

[FKAS]

To be fair he was decent ball in hand, but in a game that was always going to be tight, a highly experienced 10 kicking at @ 30% off the tee isn't going to get much forgiveness.

Two absolutely shocking DG attempts as well, at least one very soon after we had pen advantage (like 1 or phases, so no real opportunity to build anything). Pretty sure he then smashed the pen wide. I'm still convinced his leg injury is a much bigger issue than anyone will admit because he's brilliant at the line but can't kick or run anymore.

I feel for George Ford. An outstanding fly half on his day whose career suffered by being paired up with Farrell at 12. He is past his peak now and on the way down, whether due to injury, age etc.. He should probably retire from international rugby and be remembered for the great stuff before sub par performances cloud the memory of how good he was. A shame he never got a Lions tour. Under slightly different circumstances he could have been an all-time England great.

He's only 30. Age shouldn't be an issue and retiring would be very early for an international flyhalf.

The Achilles injuries he's had do make me wonder if there's lasting effects. As Danno says he's not running much with the ball these days and it's odd to see him have an off day with the boot. The brain is still sharp and he guided the team around the pitch nicely.

Ideally we want him mentoring the Smiths as they overtake him in the international pecking order.

[Oakboy]

Two absolutely shocking DG attempts as well, at least one very soon after we had pen advantage (like 1 or phases, so no real opportunity to build anything). Pretty sure he then smashed the pen wide. I'm still convinced his leg injury is a much bigger issue than anyone will admit because he's brilliant at the line but can't kick or run anymore.

I feel for George Ford. An outstanding fly half on his day whose career suffered by being paired up with Farrell at 12. He is past his peak now and on the way down, whether due to injury, age etc.. He should probably retire from international rugby and be remembered for the great stuff before sub par performances cloud the memory of how good he was. A shame he never got a Lions tour. Under slightly different circumstances he could have been an all-time England great.

He's only 30. Age shouldn't be an issue and retiring would be very early for an international flyhalf.

The Achilles injuries he's had do make me wonder if there's lasting effects. As Danno says he's not running much with the ball these days and it's odd to see him have an off day with the boot. The brain is still sharp and he guided the team around the pitch nicely.

Ideally we want him mentoring the Smiths as they overtake him in the international pecking order.

W-T will know more than me but long-term Achilles problems in my experience lead to mental and physical issues. The mental ones relate to fear of 'doing it again'. The physical ones stop the sharp off-the-mark acceleration. The two together add up to simple downgraded running ability. Playing FH at top international level must be one hell of an ask if the condition is on-going.

[FKAS]

I feel for George Ford. An outstanding fly half on his day whose career suffered by being paired up with Farrell at 12. He is past his peak now and on the way down, whether due to injury, age etc.. He should probably retire from international rugby and be remembered for the great stuff before sub par performances cloud the memory of how good he was. A shame he never got a Lions tour. Under slightly different circumstances he could have been an all-time England great.

He's only 30. Age shouldn't be an issue and retiring would be very early for an international flyhalf.

The Achilles injuries he's had do make me wonder if there's lasting effects. As Danno says he's not running much with the ball these days and it's odd to see him have an off day with the boot. The brain is still sharp and he guided the team around the pitch nicely.

Ideally we want him mentoring the Smiths as they overtake him in the international pecking order.

W-T will know more than me but long-term Achilles problems in my experience lead to mental and physical issues. The mental ones relate to fear of 'doing it again'. The physical ones stop the sharp off-the-mark acceleration. The two together add up to simple downgraded running ability. Playing FH at top international level must be one hell of an ask if the condition is on-going.

You'd have hoped the sports psychologists at the respective teams would have helped him with fear of doing it again. The fact he's had re-occuring injuries is a concern though. He's definitely not going for the runs he used to.

That being said some of his ball in hand play is class. Lying in bed and watching some of the game back and Puja is spot on with the first try. Ford's footwork to interest not only the first Irish defender but also Beirne the covering forward creates all the space outside for try. It's exactly the type of play we'd have seen Farrell grubber the ball away.

[Which Tyler]

W-T will know more than me but long-term Achilles problems in my experience lead to mental and physical issues. The mental ones relate to fear of 'doing it again'. The physical ones stop the sharp off-the-mark acceleration. The two together add up to simple downgraded running ability. Playing FH at top international level must be one hell of an ask if the condition is on-going.

Yeah, any long term injury can lead to mental problems, that can actually make the original injury worse as well - a real vicious cycle.

On GF specifically - I'd thought he'd made a full (well, as "full" as any pro rugby player) recovery from the achilles, and was doing basically the same "manage it for a year" with his knee now?
Until MSmith's injury, I was calling for him to have the 6N off (not ditched) for 7 weeks of rest and rehab. I'd still favour giving him the summer off, to mend his body and hit a mental refresh.
Now that we are where we are, 1 week isn't going make a difference, and I'd be tempted to name an unchanged XV for France.


ETA:

You'd have hoped the sports psychologists at the respective teams would have helped him with fear of doing it again.

You can help, but there's no golden bullet - pain changes the neurology of the brain.

[16th man]

I had a tenner on them to beat the, frankly silly, +11 handicap. Wish I'd gone for them to win as that was 7/2, showing some people hadn't been watching them play.

My mate had Italy, England and wales to win; he's wondering whether to cash out now or see if he nets a whopper...

I'd be cashing that out in the cold light of this morning.

[FKAS]

W-T will know more than me but long-term Achilles problems in my experience lead to mental and physical issues. The mental ones relate to fear of 'doing it again'. The physical ones stop the sharp off-the-mark acceleration. The two together add up to simple downgraded running ability. Playing FH at top international level must be one hell of an ask if the condition is on-going.

Yeah, any long term injury can lead to mental problems, that can actually make the original injury worse as well - a real vicious cycle.

On GF specifically - I'd thought he'd made a full (well, as "full" as any pro rugby player) recovery from the achilles, and was doing basically the same "manage it for a year" with his knee now?
Until MSmith's injury, I was calling for him to have the 6N off (not ditched) for 7 weeks of rest and rehab. I'd still favour giving him the summer off, to mend his body and hit a mental refresh.
Now that we are where we are, 1 week isn't going make a difference, and I'd be tempted to name an unchanged XV for France.


ETA:

You'd have hoped the sports psychologists at the respective teams would have helped him with fear of doing it again.

You can help, but there's no golden bullet - pain changes the neurology of the brain.

Yes I wasn't keen for Ford to be starting so soon after injury either. If Fin and Marcus are fit for the summer then leaving Ford at home to get his body right wouldn't be a bad call.

Pain does change the brain but with the right mental structures and coping mechanisms psychologists can help bring about some remarkable turnarounds (my wife is a health psychologist who works with cancer patients, previously worked at the Glenfield with heart patients, so I have a vague idea of that bit). The person receiving the treatment/help has to buy in, Dr Steve Peters for instance went with England Football and called it a largely wasted time as the players didn't want to work on it. This is a man with a history of success at elite level.

If you've got a player coming off serious injury you should be looking at getting a physiology professional with rehab experience to be working with them.

[Which Tyler]

Pain does change the brain but with the right mental structures and coping mechanisms psychologists can help bring about some remarkable turnarounds (my wife is a health psychologist who works with cancer patients, previously worked at the Glenfield with heart patients, so I have a vague idea of that bit). The person receiving the treatment/help has to buy in, Dr Steve Peters for instance went with England Football and called it a largely wasted time as the players didn't want to work on it. This is a man with a history of success at elite level.

Absolutely. And I've had patients (2 ever) I've talked out of pain with just a couple of hours and an open mind. I've also got my star patient, who was told she'd never walk unaided and that pregnancy would ruin her (at point of military discharge, after 2 years of working with their best), and I got to doing dog agility, rounders, and up to half marathons in about 2 years of combined physical and psych work, she's now had 2 children, and has only needed a couple of virtual consultations in 4 years (though she never accepted my recommendation for seeing a psych professional).

For that level of turn around though, you need to be past the element of active tissue damage - pretty much fully chronic, with the original injury healed (about 2 months if not continuing to aggravate). I could (easily) go on, but this isn't the place, (maybe a separate thread if anyone's interested).

Whilst still suffering tissue damage, you can get some amazing results, but it will be a long, hard journey.

Buy-in is 100% essential.

If you've got a player coming off serious injury you should be looking at getting a physiology (I assume you mean psychological) professional with rehab experience to be working with them.

I'm biased - I'd include a rehab professional with a good grounding in the psychological and neurophysiological aspects - though I prefer to co-manage with a psych specialist.

[Banquo]

I had a tenner on them to beat the, frankly silly, +11 handicap. Wish I'd gone for them to win as that was 7/2, showing some people hadn't been watching them play.

My mate had Italy, England and wales to win; he's wondering whether to cash out now or see if he nets a whopper...

I'd be cashing that out in the cold light of this morning.

Think he did, £500 v possible £1200 I think

[16th man]

My mate had Italy, England and wales to win; he's wondering whether to cash out now or see if he nets a whopper...

I'd be cashing that out in the cold light of this morning.

Think he did, £500 v possible £1200 I think

There's no way I'd be risking that sort of money on this Welsh team.

[Puja]

My mate had Italy, England and wales to win; he's wondering whether to cash out now or see if he nets a whopper...

I'd be cashing that out in the cold light of this morning.

Think he did, £500 v possible £1200 I think

And yet no-one's giving me advice on my £5 vs £8 cashout dilemma?!

Puja

[p/d]

I'd be cashing that out in the cold light of this morning.

Think he did, £500 v possible £1200 I think

And yet no-one's giving me advice on my £5 vs £8 cashout dilemma?!

Puja

Big numbers Puja. Only a decision you can make