Wales vs Italy

[Sandydragon]

Here's the team:

Wales team: 15. Cameron Winnett, 14. Josh Adams, 13. George North 12. Nick Tompkins, 11. Rio Dyer, 10. Sam Costelow, 9 Tomos Williams; 1. Gareth Thomas, 2. Elliot Dee, 3. Dillon Lewis 4. Dafydd Jenkins (capt), 5. Adam Beard, 6. Alex Mann, 7. Tommy Reffell, 8. Aaron Wainwright

Replacements: 16. Evan Lloyd, 17. Kemsley Mathias, 18. Harri O'Connor, 19. Will Rowlands, 20. Mackenzie Martin, 21. Kieran Hardy, 22. Ioan Lloyd, 23. Mason Grady.

Still no sign of Adams being removed.
Centres back to as they were - perhaps a bit harsh on Watkin who showed more than Tompkins has recently. North's return was totally expected.

Jenkins back to the boiler room and Mann returns to the back row. I'd have liked to see Rowlands starting - he gives us go forward in the front 5 and we are sadly lacking there.

Evan Lloyd retained a replacement hooker. Is Elias more injured than expected? With respect to Lloyd, is there not another hooker in Wales with a few more games who might be a better option right now? I appreciate they probably arent in the squad but this is a strange position to be in.

[pompey-zebra]

There were a few things mentioned in the papers which didnt occur such as Grady starting and Jenkins starting again at 6, but I dont think there are many significant changes that could be made with the squad as is. No one like Lake, Faletau or Anscombe had returned, so its just a case of shuffling the selection from what we've got.

Like you though, I'm surprised that someone as inexperienced as Lloyd is a preferred option at hooker. The available alternatives with more experience ( some even capped) might not be long term options but to be honest we dont know if Lloyd is either. It was the same with Archie Griffin at prop. Are they really better in the here and now than more experienced players that are available?

[normanski]

I never thought I would say this but I’m glad Lewis is back starting at TH. He’s worked with Adam Jones at Harlequins who’s said he’s ironed out some problems for him and improved his technique.

He certainly held the scrum together better against the huge France front row when he came on.

[newgalesurf]

Who the hell is Kemsley Mathias? Looking more like a creche every game

[newgalesurf]

Oh guess not. He is older. May as well see what he can do. Can't hurt

[Sandydragon]

I posted this in a bit of a rush earlier and failed to notice that both Cardiff props are missing. Im a bit surprised they have both been replaced (agree with Lewis starting). Maybe last weeks game took a lot out of them?

[Son of Mathonwy]

No idea what Adams has done to deserve 5 starts this year. Vaguely surprised to see Jenkins back to 2nd row but this is conservative Gatland (which I suppose is the reason why we have Adams . . . ). I have no strong opinion given the back row options in the squad. I think I would start Martin instead of Mann but hey.

Is that really the best back-up front row available? It's going to be destroyed. Where is Parry or Roberts for God's sake, and Mathias, just no. As I've said before I would have at least tried starting Grady by this point in the championship.

The game is a tight call (which is not necessarily saying the result is going to be close . . . this is rugby). On balance I think we'll lose the match, but a narrow win and a bottom of the table finish is fairly likely too.

Gatland needs to leave our starting front row on for at least 60 minutes. As long as they can still stagger around really.

[Sandydragon]

No idea what Adams has done to deserve 5 starts this year. Vaguely surprised to see Jenkins back to 2nd row but this is conservative Gatland (which I suppose is the reason why we have Adams . . . ). I have no strong opinion given the back row options in the squad. I think I would start Martin instead of Mann but hey.

Is that really the best back-up front row available? It's going to be destroyed. Where is Parry or Roberts for God's sake, and Mathias, just no. As I've said before I would have at least tried starting Grady by this point in the championship.

The game is a tight call (which is not necessarily saying the result is going to be close . . . this is rugby). On balance I think we'll lose the match, but a narrow win and a bottom of the table finish is fairly likely too.

Gatland needs to leave our starting front row on for at least 60 minutes. As long as they can still stagger around really.

I'm trying to recall a Welsh front row with so many scrummaging deficiencies and I'm struggling. I hope we are ahead going into the last quarter by a comfortable margin, other wise the last 20 is going to be hell to watch if we are getting pinged in the scrum constantly.

[UKHamlet]

I don't recall feeling so despondent about our prospects, at least not since Ron Waldron was sacked. Adams should be rested, he's a spare part atm. Replace him with Grady, who is young and hungry. Tomkins didn't deserve to get his place back and I'm no fan of Watkin. I'm not sure what to do at 10, we're utterly fucked. At least it's Keiron on the bench and not Gareth st SH. Our back row is okay though, as is our second row and starting FR. God alive we're going to get minced when change over time comes. All I hope is we've built up a three score lead by then.

[Graigwen]

I never thought I would say this but I’m glad Lewis is back starting at TH. He’s worked with Adam Jones at Harlequins who’s said he’s ironed out some problems for him and improved his technique.

He certainly held the scrum together better against the huge France front row when he came on.

I am surprised to agree with this. It was very noticeable last week how he has improved. What we don't yet know is whether Lewis can deliver this sort of display consistently. The rest of Lewis's game has always been OK and his turnover work has been improving for several years, it has been the scrummaging that was letting him down.

[Graigwen]

I don't doubt that Gatland really wants to win this game, but he has not allowed this to completely deflect him from experimenting. Lloyd, Mathias and O'Connor can't be brought on as one unit, they will have to be fed in gradually. I feel that Gatland has made a deliberate decision to use this 6N to throw in inexperienced players, some will not have long term Wales futures. Some older, more experienced players, who might have been more cautious choices in terms of winning games this year have been deliberately overlooked, presumably because Gatland did not see the potential to get more out of them. On the other hand, bringing back North and Tompkins is purely to try and win this one game. I wonder if Tompkins has a future without North alongside him?

At least with Capuozzo out, the inevitable holes in our defence may not be so ruthlessly punished. Costelow is a talented player but it is a surprise to what extent he is still learning on the job. Dyer was in a similar position a while ago, but seems to have learned quicker.

In a couple of season's time we will not be able to look back on this 6N and complain we were too cautious.

.

[Sandydragon]

This six nations is driving home the point that the gap between international level and the regions is huge. In a normal world, the clubs would be on a par with those elsewhere and we would have an A side to blood those with potential. Since not of that exists, Gatland can either throw inexperienced players into the mix during the Six Nations, or during the summer tours.

Id rather we took some risks on the summer tours in comparison to the six nations, and I think in some areas Gatland has been too keen to blood youth - hooker for example. But I understand why he is doing it and he wont die wondering if player X could have been the next superstar. Sadly we are very much in the valley of pain and despair and can only hope we are able to climb back out at the end of this.

On a positive note, Regan Grace seems to have survived a game in union and done alright so perhaps he will be an option for the summer.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Yes. we are rebuilding after the World Cup so bringing on relatively inexperienced players had to happen this 6N.

But the 6N is the real thing. These are not friendlies, 6N matches are the most important matches we will play till the next world cup. They mean something, in pride, in our history, financially too (there's half a million riding on tomorrow's match). We can't just sacrifice them to throw the dice on total novices who have yet to prove themselves at the regional level. The quality of our regional teams is not good so if a player doesn't obviously stand out at that level, what level of desperation (or delusion) does it take to think they'll shine at the international level?

It will be a disaster if we lose to Italy and/or finish bottom. We really need to pull out the stops to win this single match. The gain we might get from blooding an almost completely novice front row cannot outweigh the damage failure tomorrow will bring (not to mention the possible confidence crushing the novice front row might experience themselves). We have better players available. At this crunch time we need to save the blooding till the summer, and really try to win.

And this stuff is getting tiresome. Yes, I know Gatland's first priority is to control the narrative, but, no mate, you do not love facing Italy for the wooden spoon shootout, the truth is this 6N has already plumbed the depths and we are at the edge of an even worst result.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rug ... s-28816240

(And yet, paradoxically, Gatland has missed an opportunity to give Grady a huge amount of international experience this 6N, in favour of playing a totally out of form Adams. Just strange.)

[Sandydragon]

Yes. we are rebuilding after the World Cup so bringing on relatively inexperienced players had to happen this 6N.

But the 6N is the real thing. These are not friendlies, 6N matches are the most important matches we will play till the next world cup. They mean something, in pride, in our history, financially too (there's half a million riding on tomorrow's match). We can't just sacrifice them to throw the dice on total novices who have yet to prove themselves at the regional level. The quality of our regional teams is not good so if a player doesn't obviously stand out at that level, what level of desperation (or delusion) does it take to think they'll shine at the international level?

It will be a disaster if we lose to Italy and/or finish bottom. We really need to pull out the stops to win this single match. The gain we might get from blooding an almost completely novice front row cannot outweigh the damage failure tomorrow will bring (not to mention the possible confidence crushing the novice front row might experience themselves). We have better players available. At this crunch time we need to save the blooding till the summer, and really try to win.

And this stuff is getting tiresome. Yes, I know Gatland's first priority is to control the narrative, but, no mate, you do not love facing Italy for the wooden spoon shootout, the truth is this 6N has already plumbed the depths and we are at the edge of an even worst result.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rug ... s-28816240

(And yet, paradoxically, Gatland has missed an opportunity to give Grady a huge amount of international experience this 6N, in favour of playing a totally out of form Adams. Just strange.)

Agreed.

[pompey-zebra]

Yes. we are rebuilding after the World Cup so bringing on relatively inexperienced players had to happen this 6N.

But the 6N is the real thing. These are not friendlies, 6N matches are the most important matches we will play till the next world cup. They mean something, in pride, in our history, financially too (there's half a million riding on tomorrow's match). We can't just sacrifice them to throw the dice on total novices who have yet to prove themselves at the regional level. The quality of our regional teams is not good so if a player doesn't obviously stand out at that level, what level of desperation (or delusion) does it take to think they'll shine at the international level?

It will be a disaster if we lose to Italy and/or finish bottom. We really need to pull out the stops to win this single match. The gain we might get from blooding an almost completely novice front row cannot outweigh the damage failure tomorrow will bring (not to mention the possible confidence crushing the novice front row might experience themselves). We have better players available. At this crunch time we need to save the blooding till the summer, and really try to win.

And this stuff is getting tiresome. Yes, I know Gatland's first priority is to control the narrative, but, no mate, you do not love facing Italy for the wooden spoon shootout, the truth is this 6N has already plumbed the depths and we are at the edge of an even worst result.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rug ... s-28816240

(And yet, paradoxically, Gatland has missed an opportunity to give Grady a huge amount of international experience this 6N, in favour of playing a totally out of form Adams. Just strange.)

Well, at least he's not going to be accused of papering over the cracks.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Yes. we are rebuilding after the World Cup so bringing on relatively inexperienced players had to happen this 6N.

But the 6N is the real thing. These are not friendlies, 6N matches are the most important matches we will play till the next world cup. They mean something, in pride, in our history, financially too (there's half a million riding on tomorrow's match). We can't just sacrifice them to throw the dice on total novices who have yet to prove themselves at the regional level. The quality of our regional teams is not good so if a player doesn't obviously stand out at that level, what level of desperation (or delusion) does it take to think they'll shine at the international level?

It will be a disaster if we lose to Italy and/or finish bottom. We really need to pull out the stops to win this single match. The gain we might get from blooding an almost completely novice front row cannot outweigh the damage failure tomorrow will bring (not to mention the possible confidence crushing the novice front row might experience themselves). We have better players available. At this crunch time we need to save the blooding till the summer, and really try to win.

And this stuff is getting tiresome. Yes, I know Gatland's first priority is to control the narrative, but, no mate, you do not love facing Italy for the wooden spoon shootout, the truth is this 6N has already plumbed the depths and we are at the edge of an even worst result.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rug ... s-28816240

(And yet, paradoxically, Gatland has missed an opportunity to give Grady a huge amount of international experience this 6N, in favour of playing a totally out of form Adams. Just strange.)

Well, at least he's not going to be accused of papering over the cracks.

True, but neither can he be accused of going 100% for the win.

One thing that worries me is that if he did pick the best 23 players available (which would be pretty solid if not spectacular IMO) then a loss would be more likely to be blamed on his coaching. As it is he has his excuse - rebuilding.

[Graigwen]

A game of two halves for the U20s.

0-15 down at half time, being destroyed at every scrum.

Final score 27-15, completely on top with an unstoppable maul.

[Son of Mathonwy]

A game of two halves for the U20s.

0-15 down at half time, being destroyed at every scrum.

Final score 27-15, completely on top with an unstoppable maul.

I'd forgotten about this one!

Nice for the U20s to end on a good result.

[pompey-zebra]

Yes. we are rebuilding after the World Cup so bringing on relatively inexperienced players had to happen this 6N.

But the 6N is the real thing. These are not friendlies, 6N matches are the most important matches we will play till the next world cup. They mean something, in pride, in our history, financially too (there's half a million riding on tomorrow's match). We can't just sacrifice them to throw the dice on total novices who have yet to prove themselves at the regional level. The quality of our regional teams is not good so if a player doesn't obviously stand out at that level, what level of desperation (or delusion) does it take to think they'll shine at the international level?

It will be a disaster if we lose to Italy and/or finish bottom. We really need to pull out the stops to win this single match. The gain we might get from blooding an almost completely novice front row cannot outweigh the damage failure tomorrow will bring (not to mention the possible confidence crushing the novice front row might experience themselves). We have better players available. At this crunch time we need to save the blooding till the summer, and really try to win.

And this stuff is getting tiresome. Yes, I know Gatland's first priority is to control the narrative, but, no mate, you do not love facing Italy for the wooden spoon shootout, the truth is this 6N has already plumbed the depths and we are at the edge of an even worst result.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rug ... s-28816240

(And yet, paradoxically, Gatland has missed an opportunity to give Grady a huge amount of international experience this 6N, in favour of playing a totally out of form Adams. Just strange.)

Well, at least he's not going to be accused of papering over the cracks.

True, but neither can he be accused of going 100% for the win.

One thing that worries me is that if he did pick the best 23 players available (which would be pretty solid if not spectacular IMO) then a loss would be more likely to be blamed on his coaching. As it is he has his excuse - rebuilding.

It is a bit worrying as in some ways its not the Gatland way. He usually veers towards the tried and trusted and puts his faith in youngsters when there's plenty of evidence to back their selection ( picking the young George north for example). And even then with an eye on the future, the need for results in the here and now wasnt discarded. I had some confidence going into the RWC as the squad looked like a Gatland squad and we knew what that could do. Now even with all the injuries and retirements that have clearly have had an effect, some picks still look like punts on the hope of paying off for the next RWC.

In the Fail it reports Gatland has said he's going to be sticking with the bulk of the squad for the Australia tour so it doesnt look like he's about to change his mind based on this 6n's results.

[Graigwen]

I'd forgotten about this one!

Nice for the U20s to end on a good result.

The Italian tight head dominated the first half, Josh Morse was given a very hard time and was inevitably yellow carded. I guess the name Marcos Gallorini will feature in full internationals within a couple of years. Morgan Morse held Wales together in the first half, our only player to display power and aggression. I think we had conceded 6 scrum penalties by half time, it was not a meaningful contest. In the first half we had a few kind decisions from the ref.

The second half started the same way, but then Gallorini went off. Once Wales got their first try, the whole team seemed to pull itself together and rapidly improved. There was certainly a psychological element involved. Our maul became unstoppable by legal means and the Italians were lucky not to be more severely penalised. Replacement prop Jordan Morris was devastating in the loose.

It was a very odd game.

.

[Graigwen]

It is a bit worrying as in some ways its not the Gatland way. He usually veers towards the tried and trusted and puts his faith in youngsters when there's plenty of evidence to back their selection ( picking the young George north for example). And even then with an eye on the future, the need for results in the here and now wasnt discarded. I had some confidence going into the RWC as the squad looked like a Gatland squad and we knew what that could do. Now even with all the injuries and retirements that have clearly have had an effect, some picks still look like punts on the hope of paying off for the next RWC.

In the Fail it reports Gatland has said he's going to be sticking with the bulk of the squad for the Australia tour so it doesnt look like he's about to change his mind based on this 6n's results.

I don't think Gatland liked experimenting in the 6N. I believe he felt forced into it by all the departures and long term injuries. I do suspect it was a deliberate decision to confront the inevitable pain as soon as possible. The only oddity, as has been commented on, was not exposing Grady more.

.

[Son of Mathonwy]

If we lose I must remember to switch off before Warbs tells us how good it is for rugby that Italy have won.

[Which Tyler]

Win or lose, why would anyone who knows about rugby listen the the pundits in the studio about... anything much.
They're not talking to us, they're talking to the people who watch the RWC and most of the 6N, and still haven't heard of the 50:22 law.

[Sandydragon]

This is utterly dire. We look totally clueless

[Sandydragon]

This could be a very long afternoon unless we start doing some basics right.