Team for the Summer

[Son of Mathonwy]

WOL has suggested a team for the Summer tour:

Liam Williams
Josh Adams
Joe Roberts
Mason Grady
Rio Dyer
Gareth Anscombe
Tomos Williams
Gareth Thomas
Dewi Lake
Tomas Francis
Dafydd Jenkins
Will Rowlands
Christ Tshiunza
Jac Morgan
Aaron Wainwright

Bench: Elliot Dee, Nicky Smith, Keiron Assiratti, Adam Beard, Tommy Reffell, Gareth Davies, Sam Costelow, Jacob Beetham

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rug ... w-28841777

There's no point in picking Liam Williams or Anscombe. They won't be around for next RWC, they may not even be available for the next 6N, so no point. The summer matches are not must-win, they'll do for development.

I'd prefer to see Nagy or Beetham at FB than Winnett.

Dyer is an easy pick. Adams isn't too old to give up on but he absolutely needs to be in better for for Cardiff before he gets selected for Wales again. Ideally I'd have Regan Grace in Adams's place but this is dependent on his showing good enough for this season.

Centre is very interesting. Grady is a certainty. Paired with who?? No obvious answer. Tompkins, Lloyd, Keiran Williams, Joe Roberts and Max Llewellyn are all options although Gatland won't pick Williams. The way things stand, assuming no massive changes in form I'd go with Lloyd (assuming Gatland doesn't want him at 10). Might be good to see Louie Hennessey in the squad.

At 10 it's Sheedy, with Lloyd as cover, whether from the bench or from 12.

Tomos Williams at 9, Hardy on bench.

Back row would be Rhys Davies, Jac Morgan and Wainwright with Reffell on the bench. I would like to see Tshiunza, Martin, Morse in the squad.

2nd row, Rowlands and Jenkins, Beard on bench.

Front row: Thomas, Lake, Francis (only if fully available in future otherwise God knows, Brown, Assiratti?)

[Sandydragon]

There is no point having gone through the shit show that was the 6N with younger players just to revert to the old guard for a summer tour. Id rather stick with what we have, baring those who are returning from injury and have sme longevity in the squad.

Regan Grace is definitely worth a look if he remains fit and is looking decent. Adams may need a rest if the story about his kenn is correct.

Grady plus 1 in the centre is looking very likely. Really not sure who, some options I suppose but we will definitely miss North for a while.

I would bring in SHeedy at fly half for some solidity and experience. I think that would help Costelow and Lloyd.

Tight head is an issue. If Francis can commit then fair enough (is he playing at a high enough level?). Otherwise, unless we have injury worries, then go for younger players and give them the opportunity.

[Numbers]

WOL has suggested a team for the Summer tour:

Liam Williams
Josh Adams
Joe Roberts
Mason Grady
Rio Dyer
Gareth Anscombe
Tomos Williams
Gareth Thomas
Dewi Lake
Tomas Francis
Dafydd Jenkins
Will Rowlands
Christ Tshiunza
Jac Morgan
Aaron Wainwright

Bench: Elliot Dee, Nicky Smith, Keiron Assiratti, Adam Beard, Tommy Reffell, Gareth Davies, Sam Costelow, Jacob Beetham

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rug ... w-28841777

There's no point in picking Liam Williams or Anscombe. They won't be around for next RWC, they may not even be available for the next 6N, so no point. The summer matches are not must-win, they'll do for development.

I'd prefer to see Nagy or Beetham at FB than Winnett.

Dyer is an easy pick. Adams isn't too old to give up on but he absolutely needs to be in better for for Cardiff before he gets selected for Wales again. Ideally I'd have Regan Grace in Adams's place but this is dependent on his showing good enough for this season.

Centre is very interesting. Grady is a certainty. Paired with who?? No obvious answer. Tompkins, Lloyd, Keiran Williams, Joe Roberts and Max Llewellyn are all options although Gatland won't pick Williams. The way things stand, assuming no massive changes in form I'd go with Lloyd (assuming Gatland doesn't want him at 10). Might be good to see Louie Hennessey in the squad.

At 10 it's Sheedy, with Lloyd as cover, whether from the bench or from 12.

Tomos Williams at 9, Hardy on bench.

Back row would be Rhys Davies, Jac Morgan and Wainwright with Reffell on the bench. I would like to see Tshiunza, Martin, Morse in the squad.

2nd row, Rowlands and Jenkins, Beard on bench.

Front row: Thomas, Lake, Francis (only if fully available in future otherwise God knows, Brown, Assiratti?)

Agreed re: aging players.

Regarding 15, I've seen Beetham play a couple of times and he is quite a bit behind Winnett in terms of development, tenatative under the high ball for instance, Nagy isn't Welsh so I'm not really that bothered with him, Tom Rogers has been in the squad previously and there have been comparisons between him and Liam Williams (from Liam himself) but I'd be quite happy for Winnett to keep on developing, he's only had a handful of regional games so I think maybe you are expecting a bit much from him at this stage.

Agree re: Dyer and Adams

Regan Grace hasn't played rugby union for about a decade other than the warm up games so his positioning play would be way off, he has great potential but would need some development and he is injury prone to say the least which is why Saints didn't keep him.

I'm not sure where you are coming from re: centres, it seems obvious that the pairing will be Grady at 12 and Roberts at 13, Lloyd is not international quality in any position as it stands I'm afraid, Henessey I agree could do with some time with the squad and possibly Eddie James, both are big ball carriers with potential.

I won't comment on 10 as I think you know my opinion there and it's pointless to keep banging the drum.

At 9 I think Tomos Williams is the obvious choice, I thought that Reuben Morgan-Williams has been playing quite well but he seems to have fallen behinf Liam Davies at the moment (maybe due to injury, I don't know.)

Agree re: Rhys Davies, I think he has real potential, also Deaves is a promising player along with Trisatan Davies and Ryan Woodman, all of those could be effective 6s imo.

2nd row I'd like to see Ben Carter back, he has a high workrate and is sizeable, Morgan Jones is quite good down west and Teddy Williams has the size for International rugby so maybe we can get him further along.

Front Row: As you say, the cupboard is not brimming with options so the faster we can bring on the younger players the better.

All that said, if I were to pick a starting 15 for the summer tour it would be the same as the fail but with Dee at 2 and Winnett at 15.

[Sandydragon]

If I were desperate to get a win, then I would bring back some of the old guard, but that can backfire hugely if that win doesnt come and its seen as a wasted opportunity. Tight head and fly half are the positions where we are weakest and might need to consider something different.

[Son of Mathonwy]

WOL has suggested a team for the Summer tour:

Liam Williams
Josh Adams
Joe Roberts
Mason Grady
Rio Dyer
Gareth Anscombe
Tomos Williams
Gareth Thomas
Dewi Lake
Tomas Francis
Dafydd Jenkins
Will Rowlands
Christ Tshiunza
Jac Morgan
Aaron Wainwright

Bench: Elliot Dee, Nicky Smith, Keiron Assiratti, Adam Beard, Tommy Reffell, Gareth Davies, Sam Costelow, Jacob Beetham

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rug ... w-28841777

There's no point in picking Liam Williams or Anscombe. They won't be around for next RWC, they may not even be available for the next 6N, so no point. The summer matches are not must-win, they'll do for development.

I'd prefer to see Nagy or Beetham at FB than Winnett.

Dyer is an easy pick. Adams isn't too old to give up on but he absolutely needs to be in better for for Cardiff before he gets selected for Wales again. Ideally I'd have Regan Grace in Adams's place but this is dependent on his showing good enough for this season.

Centre is very interesting. Grady is a certainty. Paired with who?? No obvious answer. Tompkins, Lloyd, Keiran Williams, Joe Roberts and Max Llewellyn are all options although Gatland won't pick Williams. The way things stand, assuming no massive changes in form I'd go with Lloyd (assuming Gatland doesn't want him at 10). Might be good to see Louie Hennessey in the squad.

At 10 it's Sheedy, with Lloyd as cover, whether from the bench or from 12.

Tomos Williams at 9, Hardy on bench.

Back row would be Rhys Davies, Jac Morgan and Wainwright with Reffell on the bench. I would like to see Tshiunza, Martin, Morse in the squad.

2nd row, Rowlands and Jenkins, Beard on bench.

Front row: Thomas, Lake, Francis (only if fully available in future otherwise God knows, Brown, Assiratti?)

Agreed re: aging players.

Regarding 15, I've seen Beetham play a couple of times and he is quite a bit behind Winnett in terms of development, tenatative under the high ball for instance, Nagy isn't Welsh so I'm not really that bothered with him, Tom Rogers has been in the squad previously and there have been comparisons between him and Liam Williams (from Liam himself) but I'd be quite happy for Winnett to keep on developing, he's only had a handful of regional games so I think maybe you are expecting a bit much from him at this stage.

Agree re: Dyer and Adams

Regan Grace hasn't played rugby union for about a decade other than the warm up games so his positioning play would be way off, he has great potential but would need some development and he is injury prone to say the least which is why Saints didn't keep him.

I'm not sure where you are coming from re: centres, it seems obvious that the pairing will be Grady at 12 and Roberts at 13, Lloyd is not international quality in any position as it stands I'm afraid, Henessey I agree could do with some time with the squad and possibly Eddie James, both are big ball carriers with potential.

I won't comment on 10 as I think you know my opinion there and it's pointless to keep banging the drum.

At 9 I think Tomos Williams is the obvious choice, I thought that Reuben Morgan-Williams has been playing quite well but he seems to have fallen behinf Liam Davies at the moment (maybe due to injury, I don't know.)

Agree re: Rhys Davies, I think he has real potential, also Deaves is a promising player along with Trisatan Davies and Ryan Woodman, all of those could be effective 6s imo.

2nd row I'd like to see Ben Carter back, he has a high workrate and is sizeable, Morgan Jones is quite good down west and Teddy Williams has the size for International rugby so maybe we can get him further along.

Front Row: As you say, the cupboard is not brimming with options so the faster we can bring on the younger players the better.

All that said, if I were to pick a starting 15 for the summer tour it would be the same as the fail but with Dee at 2 and Winnett at 15.

Yeah, I'm forgetting Tom Rogers, an obvious FB or wing option.

I think you prefer Costelow to Lloyd, would you pick him over Sheedy?

You may be right about centres but IMO, the only thing I think we are really sure of is Grady will be 12 or 13. Someone else needs to stand out. Who knows, maybe Gatland will pick Watkin and Grady??

[pompey-zebra]

Tomos Williams needs an op on his ankle following the Italy game. 10-12 weeks recovery time so doubtful for the SA and Australia matches.

Not sure who's next in line. Seems to have been Williams, Davies and Hardy for ages.

[Sandydragon]

Tomos has been our best player, or at least one of our best. Its a good opportunity for Hardy but a real pain none the less.

The idea of Grady at 13 in defence is enough to bring me out in a cold sweat. I wonder if 12 might be the better option, or even on the wing but bringing him in field as much as possible?

[Tuco Ramirez]

There is no point having gone through the shit show that was the 6N with younger players just to revert to the old guard for a summer tour. Id rather stick with what we have, baring those who are returning from injury and have sme longevity in the squad.

Regan Grace is definitely worth a look if he remains fit and is looking decent. Adams may need a rest if the story about his kenn is correct.

Grady plus 1 in the centre is looking very likely. Really not sure who, some options I suppose but we will definitely miss North for a while.

I would bring in SHeedy at fly half for some solidity and experience. I think that would help Costelow and Lloyd.

Tight head is an issue. If Francis can commit then fair enough (is he playing at a high enough level?). Otherwise, unless we have injury worries, then go for younger players and give them the opportunity.

Costellow.... please.... send him back to Scarlets. Not international class ffs. Lets look elsewhere.

[pompey-zebra]

There is no point having gone through the shit show that was the 6N with younger players just to revert to the old guard for a summer tour. Id rather stick with what we have, baring those who are returning from injury and have sme longevity in the squad.

Regan Grace is definitely worth a look if he remains fit and is looking decent. Adams may need a rest if the story about his kenn is correct.

Grady plus 1 in the centre is looking very likely. Really not sure who, some options I suppose but we will definitely miss North for a while.

I would bring in SHeedy at fly half for some solidity and experience. I think that would help Costelow and Lloyd.

Tight head is an issue. If Francis can commit then fair enough (is he playing at a high enough level?). Otherwise, unless we have injury worries, then go for younger players and give them the opportunity.

Costellow.... please.... send him back to Scarlets. Not international class ffs. Lets look elsewhere.

Agree about Costellow. I think he needs time at the Scarlets to develop his game, and at least then he can show he might have an international future even if not now. If not he still might develop into an effective regional player.

And on the subject of 10/15 what was the point in naming Cai Evans in the original 6 nations squad? As far as I remember he only came on in the 79th minute against England presumably only because if we had a long range penalty then he's got a bigger boot than lloyd. I'm not sure how good he is/ can be but if the aim was to try him out further then that should have happened. If he's not seen as capable of playing 15 or 10 at this level, there doesnt seem a lot of point in naming him in the original 34. All it effectively did was take up a squad place.

[Sandydragon]

Cai Evans is not an international rugby player. He is a solid regional full back and emergency fly half.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Cai Evans was involved because of the crisis at fly half AND full back, especially with LRZ suddenly disappearing and Rogers being injured. If we'd lost Winnett we might well have seen Evans at FB. He's a journeyman but is competent and can kick straight.

[Son of Mathonwy]

The idea of Grady at 13 in defence is enough to bring me out in a cold sweat. I wonder if 12 might be the better option, or even on the wing but bringing him in field as much as possible?

Hardly giving Grady any game time this 6N was bizarre given Gatland's plan to give young players more experience. And his efforts in the Italy match show what a mistake that was. Grady should have had several more hours of international experience by now.

He's got much to learn but hopefully by the end of the Summer he'll be a safer choice.

[pompey-zebra]

Cai Evans was involved because of the crisis at fly half AND full back, especially with LRZ suddenly disappearing and Rogers being injured. If we'd lost Winnett we might well have seen Evans at FB. He's a journeyman but is competent and can kick straight.

Fully appreciate that due to the various unavailabilities, the options weren't great for cover for 10 and 15. But given that, and the stated desire to give players opportunities to see how they worked out, it might have made sense to play him at least once ( other than a minute against england) given he was in the squad anyway. I don't think Winnett did anything wrong enough to be dropped but if Gatland had said " we've seen Cam and we're happy, but we just want to try Cai to see what he can do as he offers something different to Cam" I could have understood given the experimentation at other times. As it was, it looked like Gatland doesnt rate him as an international either, other than in an emergency

Now I've said that, Gatland will probably have Evans in his summer squad too!

[Sandydragon]

Cai Evans was involved because of the crisis at fly half AND full back, especially with LRZ suddenly disappearing and Rogers being injured. If we'd lost Winnett we might well have seen Evans at FB. He's a journeyman but is competent and can kick straight.

His kicking game is very good and hes solid elsewhere. He wouldnt lose us a game by having a rush of blood, but equally our already stodgy backline would be even less threatening.

[MrK]

This is the squad Id like to see

LH - Domachowski, Thomas, Smith*
Hooker- Lake, Parry, E LLoyd **
TH - Lewis, Assirati, Warren ***
2R - Jenkins, Rowlands, R Davies, T Williams
4/6 - Tshiunza
BR - Plumtree, Botham****, Morgan, Reffel, Wainwright, Martin

20 Forwards

* - Id rather cap Carre again if for no other reason than to keep him on simmer for the next welsh coach, but cant see that happening
**- We may as well continue with E LLoyd as a project now we have started - all 3 of these can carry, and yes its very harsh on Dee
*** - Id like to see B Warren involved as a ball carrying 3 given Brown cant stay fit
No Beard is another harsh and unlikely call, but its what Id do.
**** - Botham for me gives a point of difference for impact at rucks, Im picking him as I cant see Morris getting picked and as Gatland included him in the initial squad he must see something in him - but theres so may options it could be anyone of them

9 - WIlliams, Hardy, E Bevan*
10 - Costelow, Sheedy, Edwards*
Centre - K Williams**, B Thomas**, Grady, Roberts
Back 3 - Adams, Dyer, Nagy, Grace***, Winnett
Utility Back - Lloyd

16 Backs

* We need to take a look at "whos next" so why not take them on a tour
** - I think K Williams is the best gain line 12 we have, I think B Thomas is the best pall playing 12 we have, this gives us options -I think Grady and Roberts are no brainers
*** - Grace has to go if hes had any semblance of regular game time, we've lost Femi, lets not lose him too.
Nagy hopefully gets the call up


Of that Id start

Thomas, Parry, Lewis, Jenkins, Rowlands, Plumtree, Morgan, Wainwright, Williams, Costelow, Adams, K Williams/ B Thomas, Grady, Dyer, Nagy
B: Smith, Lake ,Warren, T Williams, M Martin, Bevan, Lloyd, B Thomas/Roberts

[Son of Mathonwy]

Yes, give Carre another cap for the SA game. Would he take it up, knowing how it adds to the time before another nation can look at him? It would be a litmus test I guess. But it ain't going to happen with Gats, despite the success SA and France are having with their 30-minute forwards.

Promising as Edwards is I think I'd give him another season at the Ospreys before this, coz by god Costelow and Lloyd are inexperienced enough.

Yeah, K Williams gets my vote but he's too small for Gats. Like Morris and Giles.

I really hope Grace finds his Union form straight away coz Adams has lost his.

[Son of Mathonwy]

We shouldn't forget Johnny Williams in the 12 debate. If he could cut out the errors he would be excellent.

Will Reed for fly half too, but it's hard to shine in a team that's struggling so much.

[Tuco Ramirez]

I think Archie Griffin will tour too.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Morgan Morris would be small for an international 8 but he'd be an excellent 7. Obviously we are well stocked at 7 but IMO he ought to be picked before Basham. They're about the same height, Morris is heavier. They're both good ball carriers but Morris also has that short range ability to get over the try line. Morris is a fantastic jackler. At the regional level Morris is clearly the better player.

[Graigwen]

Morgan Morris would be small for an international 8 but he'd be an excellent 7. Obviously we are well stocked at 7 but IMO he ought to be picked before Basham. They're about the same height, Morris is heavier. They're both good ball carriers but Morris also has that short range ability to get over the try line. Morris is a fantastic jackler. At the regional level Morris is clearly the better player.

I agree , Morgan Morris seems to have more potential than Basham.. At some stage we have to throw Plumtree in and see if he is any good. I think Tsiunza's potential is in the back row, not second row.

There is no point playing Adams or Costelow at the moment.

If Carre was anything like fit I'd offer him a cap... If he could stay fit I'd prefer Brown at tight head (I have to admit Lewis's scrummaging is not as rubbish as it used to be).

Centres are Grady and a rotation of others.

I don't think Nagy is international standard, nor Botha.

The situation at 10 is so bad there could be a case for Anscombe + an apprentice.

.

[Sandydragon]

Morgan Morris would be small for an international 8 but he'd be an excellent 7. Obviously we are well stocked at 7 but IMO he ought to be picked before Basham. They're about the same height, Morris is heavier. They're both good ball carriers but Morris also has that short range ability to get over the try line. Morris is a fantastic jackler. At the regional level Morris is clearly the better player.

I agree , Morgan Morris seems to have more potential than Basham.. At some stage we have to throw Plumtree in and see if he is any good. I think Tsiunza's potential is in the back row, not second row.

There is no point playing Adams or Costelow at the moment.

If Carre was anything like fit I'd offer him a cap... If he could stay fit I'd prefer Brown at tight head (I have to admit Lewis's scrummaging is not as rubbish as it used to be).

Centres are Grady and a rotation of others.

I don't think Nagy is international standard, nor Botha.

The situation at 10 is so bad there could be a case for Anscombe + an apprentice.

.

Anscombe hasnt played for a while so he might not get picked until he has had a few games for Gloucester. Then again, we are in real trouble at fly half and we desperately need someone to bring the younger players through. Id be far happier with Anscombe or Sheedy starting and Lloyd on the bench

[Son of Mathonwy]

Morgan Morris would be small for an international 8 but he'd be an excellent 7. Obviously we are well stocked at 7 but IMO he ought to be picked before Basham. They're about the same height, Morris is heavier. They're both good ball carriers but Morris also has that short range ability to get over the try line. Morris is a fantastic jackler. At the regional level Morris is clearly the better player.

I agree , Morgan Morris seems to have more potential than Basham.. At some stage we have to throw Plumtree in and see if he is any good. I think Tsiunza's potential is in the back row, not second row.

There is no point playing Adams or Costelow at the moment.

If Carre was anything like fit I'd offer him a cap... If he could stay fit I'd prefer Brown at tight head (I have to admit Lewis's scrummaging is not as rubbish as it used to be).

Centres are Grady and a rotation of others.

I don't think Nagy is international standard, nor Botha.

The situation at 10 is so bad there could be a case for Anscombe + an apprentice.

.

Yeah, I'm sure Plumtree will be involved as soon as he's fit. Shame he's missed a season of development.

I've yet to see Tshiunza show enough dynamism for the back row (same again last weekend, although it was his first game back to be fair).

Carre is just a tragedy, a real waste.

There's no point in getting Anscombe back, he's too old, he breaks too easily and will be off to Japan if he gets a run of games. There might be some pain at 10 for a bit but the Summer's for experimenting. Hope Sheedy's fit. It's a shame is that Costelow and Lloyd are both in the same team.

[Sandydragon]

Plumtree had some good areas when he ran out for Wales pre RWC, I think he could be tidy in the medium term.

Tshiunza is a bit of an enigma. He certainly has the physical attributes to do well, but seems ineffective in the Welsh back row. Im not sure if that is down to not understanding the structures etc or whether he is better off at international level as a mobile lock. Worth persevering with in my opinion as I think he could be a very good international in time, we just need ot work out how to get the best out of him.

[Puja]

Plumtree had some good areas when he ran out for Wales pre RWC, I think he could be tidy in the medium term.

Tshiunza is a bit of an enigma. He certainly has the physical attributes to do well, but seems ineffective in the Welsh back row. Im not sure if that is down to not understanding the structures etc or whether he is better off at international level as a mobile lock. Worth persevering with in my opinion as I think he could be a very good international in time, we just need ot work out how to get the best out of him.

I'm baffled that both Wales and Exeter seem to think he's a flanker (an openside, even, according to the weird way Exeter do things!). He looks every inch a lock - him and Jenkins should be your 4/5 for years to come.

Puja

[Son of Mathonwy]

Another fine game for Morris. An inexplicably poor one from Owen Williams, luckily not enough to lose us the game. Class from Giles. Unfortunately Nagy got about 4 minutes of game time. What difference will all this make to the summer squad . . . ? Not much, I expect.