WTF Southport?

[Stom]

Oh, Twitter should absolutely be banned until it can fact check responsibly. Which is impossible considering their whole premise of being "quick".

Who cares the backlash, ban it: there's 100s of other platforms to talk on.

[morepork]

If it’s promoting violence then it should be considered. Musk would be apoplectic but that’s a risk worth taking to make him realise he has responsibilities now.

Things have changed with Musk's involvement in the last few days. It's clear now that X is not a neutral platform but is actually hostile to the interests of the UK. Should the government/state entities be using it any more? Should we seek or build a better one? The UK should not become more reliant on such a hostile system (imagine being reliant on a Russian one). I would hate us to get to the position that the UK has more to lose by cutting off X than X does.

Interesting discussion on The News Agents the other day about whether proper journalists should abandon X. If the platform was just starting up, would there be so many on it?

Lewis Goodall was suggesting mass evacuation, whilst Jon Sopel suggested that X needed people who were posting the truth.

I think the problem is that musk has changed the dynamic through his own interventions but the algorithm also seems to have changed. Now the disinformation posts seem to be promoted. I’m not sure there’s a straight forward answer except that if X is refusing to deal with posts which are inciting hatred/ violence then the government needs to do something.

Journalism relying on social media for information is a massive problem. The fourth estate needs to keep abreast of nonsense trends on social media but these trends do not necessarily equal actual facts. The fact that one individual has the ability to profoundly alter the narrative of events is indeed a big problem.

[Sandydragon]

Things have changed with Musk's involvement in the last few days. It's clear now that X is not a neutral platform but is actually hostile to the interests of the UK. Should the government/state entities be using it any more? Should we seek or build a better one? The UK should not become more reliant on such a hostile system (imagine being reliant on a Russian one). I would hate us to get to the position that the UK has more to lose by cutting off X than X does.

Interesting discussion on The News Agents the other day about whether proper journalists should abandon X. If the platform was just starting up, would there be so many on it?

Lewis Goodall was suggesting mass evacuation, whilst Jon Sopel suggested that X needed people who were posting the truth.

I think the problem is that musk has changed the dynamic through his own interventions but the algorithm also seems to have changed. Now the disinformation posts seem to be promoted. I’m not sure there’s a straight forward answer except that if X is refusing to deal with posts which are inciting hatred/ violence then the government needs to do something.

Journalism relying on social media for information is a massive problem. The fourth estate needs to keep abreast of nonsense trends on social media but these trends do not necessarily equal actual facts. The fact that one individual has the ability to profoundly alter the narrative of events is indeed a big problem.

Not just journalists. I know of at least one major UK Government department which wanted to give its civil servants a Twitter feed so it could monitor tweets concerning it. The justification was that Twitter was basically a news service, and should be allowed along with the BBC etc.

I understand the pressure that journalists are under. Social media moves at lightning speed and old-fashioned media is just so slow in comparison. But the MSM need to make that reliability their USP and not try to compete with social media for speed; it's impossible to fact-check that quickly in most cases.

[Sandydragon]

In slightly related news, the Taylor Swift concert in Vienna has been cancelled due to a terror threat. A lone wolf, radical Islamist attacker wanted to cause maximum casualties. I'm sure that many of the nutters online will have already linked radical Islamic State-influenced terrorists and immigration.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Hilariously (I hope) Musk is trying to force companies to advertise on X:

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... -antitrust

Clearly a real believer in the free market.

[Mikey Brown]

Curiosity got the better of me and I watched this video. Well I skipped through several parts of, but I watched plenty enough. It's crazy the things youtube will suggest to you once you watch anything vaguely related to someone right wing.

I don't know that I'd encourage anybody to watch it, but I was interested to see the perspective from someone who supports the 'protests'.



It's really profoundly depressing. I don't know how you battle the kind of logic that so many of these people are operating under. That police officers have specifically chosen to be here "fighting British people" instead of "keeping our children safe". Arresting people for innocently knocking down barriers and charging towards them, because they're "corrupt". Khan has made a deal with the immigration forces (???) to let all muslims in. "Two tier policing" etc.

One guy calls a copper fat, who laughs in response, then he asks him why he finds these poor murdered children so funny? How do you even communicate with somebody like that?

I can't tell which people are knowingly twisting events to fit their narrative, which earnestly believe it, or which are just there for a laugh and a piss up. This guy appears not to understand why a police force would be at all concerned by this crowd. These videos are getting millions of views and I worry about how effective it is. There are so many commentators just blindly repeating a jumble of incoherent, racist dog-whistles that they've been hearing for years.

I honestly don't know why I'm posting this here. Venting I guess. It's so mentally draining even trying to follow these events and that's from someone lucky enough not to be involved or really affected by these issues. I know there is a lot of valid frustration amongst the rioters/protestors, but the majority of it seems to be completely misplaced or targeting symptoms rather than causes. It's just so fucking depressing.

I'd ask can we just switch the internet off for good, but I don't know if the papers are a whole lot better anymore.

[Sandydragon]

I listened to a couple of voice interviews on a podcast recently where protestors were being asked why they didnt like immigrants. To paraphrase:

They're dirty.
They are taking our f*cking jobs
They get benefits
We give them houses and hotels for free
They're a bunch of terrorists, its not safe to let them in.
We've got f*ck all.

So much of that is just a selection of tropes. Without immigration, many of our key sectors, including the NHS, just simply could not function, not to mention care homes. They are doing those jobs because British people don't want them. We know that benefits arent just handed out on arrival, and whilst there are undoubtedly some undesirables in those who do arrive, its a tiny minority.

The issues that drive this though do come across. People are protesting because they have the perception they have nothing. Multiculturalism, internationalism, capitalism, etc, etc, etc, none of those have made their lives better. They are poor, struggling and feel ignored by politicians of all persuasions. Boris tapped into this a little with levelling up, but didn't have a coherent plan. Immigrants are a useful, identifiable 'other' to blame all their ills on. Nothing new there, but social media amplifies things and allows for national coordination in a way not previously possible. It was the same motivation that drove Brexit in many cases - a sense of wanting to lash out at someone, anyone, and the ruling class was as good a target as anyone.

Many of these people believe in Farage and Reform. They are providing simple answers to complex problems but it's working.

In addition to levelling up, the lack of housing is causing a real issue. Immigrants given houses when UK born people cant get social housing is a huge flashpoint. I don't condone violence; I do understand why that is so hugely frustrating. We need more social housing and affordable housing, and we need it soon. Take the out-and-out racists to one side, many of those who are angry are angry because they see the perception of immigration impacting them. "Immigrants are stealing your homes" might be rubbish, but when you can't buy or rent a home (or your children can't) its easy to see why its persuasive. We need to tackle some of these underlying problems if we are to prevent riots occuring again.

I completely agree that it's depressing watching/listening and some of the racism just isnt worth the effort. But in an amongst the racism are genuine concerns which we do need to understand and address.

[Sandydragon]

The media are reporting that nothing much happened last night. 100 potential rally sites and no violence. Bit early to suggest it’s all over but it’s positive news nonetheless less.

[Which Tyler]

I think we need a quiet weekend before getting optimistic

[Donny osmond]

The NHS is an interesting one. As Sandy says, it simply wouldn't function without immigrants. And yet everyone I know who works in the NHS, and with a wife, sister and BiL who are all doctors I know quite a few NHS workers, has stories of, and is frustrated by, immigrants who have come to the UK to use the NHS taking time and resources away from UK citizens. Recently my wife treated the daughter of an Iranian family who had been living in Sweden, and receiving medical treatment there, but when the father was recalled to Iran, his wife and daughter came to the UK to claim asylum so that they could use the NHS here. The father isn't in trouble in Iran, the family just see better, and free, medical services being provided here and came here to use them.
It's very frustrating being inside a system, especially one like the NHS that you work in because you believe in the foundation principles of it, and see the inefficiencies that cause some people to miss treatment or have it delayed while others are abusing that same system.

[Sandydragon]

I think we need a quiet weekend before getting optimistic

Apparently there’s protests due in Cardiff, but the fail suggests that it’s largely an anti fascist protest in response to a potential anti immigration one.

[Son of Mathonwy]

I listened to a couple of voice interviews on a podcast recently where protestors were being asked why they didnt like immigrants. To paraphrase:

They're dirty.
They are taking our f*cking jobs
They get benefits
We give them houses and hotels for free
They're a bunch of terrorists, its not safe to let them in.
We've got f*ck all.

So much of that is just a selection of tropes. Without immigration, many of our key sectors, including the NHS, just simply could not function, not to mention care homes. They are doing those jobs because British people don't want them. We know that benefits arent just handed out on arrival, and whilst there are undoubtedly some undesirables in those who do arrive, its a tiny minority.

The issues that drive this though do come across. People are protesting because they have the perception they have nothing. Multiculturalism, internationalism, capitalism, etc, etc, etc, none of those have made their lives better. They are poor, struggling and feel ignored by politicians of all persuasions. Boris tapped into this a little with levelling up, but didn't have a coherent plan. Immigrants are a useful, identifiable 'other' to blame all their ills on. Nothing new there, but social media amplifies things and allows for national coordination in a way not previously possible. It was the same motivation that drove Brexit in many cases - a sense of wanting to lash out at someone, anyone, and the ruling class was as good a target as anyone.

Many of these people believe in Farage and Reform. They are providing simple answers to complex problems but it's working.

In addition to levelling up, the lack of housing is causing a real issue. Immigrants given houses when UK born people cant get social housing is a huge flashpoint. I don't condone violence; I do understand why that is so hugely frustrating. We need more social housing and affordable housing, and we need it soon. Take the out-and-out racists to one side, many of those who are angry are angry because they see the perception of immigration impacting them. "Immigrants are stealing your homes" might be rubbish, but when you can't buy or rent a home (or your children can't) its easy to see why its persuasive. We need to tackle some of these underlying problems if we are to prevent riots occuring again.

I completely agree that it's depressing watching/listening and some of the racism just isnt worth the effort. But in an amongst the racism are genuine concerns which we do need to understand and address.

Leaving aside the worst of them, the ones who just want an excuse to destroy things and injure people, this is arising from poverty and the fact that things have been getting worse for the poorest for years now, with no obvious sign of improvement. This has set the scene for the easy answer to be provided by the populists.

They've played the EU card that had been set up with decades of groundwork by the right wing media and politicians. That's done, the right got what they wanted and what do you know? The easy answer was bullshit, no answer at all.

So what's next? Oh yeah, something else the right wing media and politicians have been lying about for decades - immigrants. If it wasn't the EU making your life so shit, it must be all those immigrants - bullshit, easy answer #2. It's a lie but there has to be an answer, right?

The answer is to make the poor less poor. How can this be done without increasing the size of the pie (because that's something that's at least partly beyond the government's control)? Increase equality. Share out what we have more evenly. And, in addition to making the lives of the poorest better, this would have the added bonus of reducing division in society because there would be less disparity in wealth. So we need more progressive taxation/benefits*. The money's there, it just needs redistribution. We could start this tomorrow, and the poor, misguided Reform supporters would slowly stop looking for someone to blame and have no need for the populists' scapegoats**. Of the man parties, only the Greens are offering this.

* getting rid of the right to buy your council flat/house would be a big help too. Anything to help spread rather than concentrate the wealth.

** obviously competently processing the backlog of immigrants' cases would help, but this would just help to make the scapegoats less visible/plausible. It wouldn't directly tackle the cause of division and discontent.

[Son of Mathonwy]

So planning the violent destruction of a hotel containing human beings gets you 20 months but planning a peaceful blockage of the M25 gets you 5 years? Yeah, that sounds about right for UK 2024. It must be that two tier thing they're going on about.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... locked-m25
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ar ... t-violence

[Which Tyler]

So planning the violent destruction of a hotel containing human beings gets you 20 months but planning a peaceful blockage of the M25 gets you 5 years? Yeah, that sounds about right for UK 2024. It must be that two tier thing they're going on about.

Unfortunately, that's the law being an ass; thanks to the terrible Anti-Steven Bray/JSO law passed by the last government

Leaving aside the worst of them, the ones who just want an excuse to destroy things and injure people, this is arising from poverty and the fact that things have been getting worse for the poorest for years now, with no obvious sign of improvement. This has set the scene for the easy answer to be provided by the populists.

They've played the EU card that had been set up with decades of groundwork by the right wing media and politicians. That's done, the right got what they wanted and what do you know? The easy answer was bullshit, no answer at all.

So what's next? Oh yeah, something else the right wing media and politicians have been lying about for decades - immigrants. If it wasn't the EU making your life so shit, it must be all those immigrants - bullshit, easy answer #2. It's a lie but there has to be an answer, right?

The answer is to make the poor less poor. How can this be done without increasing the size of the pie (because that's something that's at least partly beyond the government's control)? Increase equality. Share out what we have more evenly. And, in addition to making the lives of the poorest better, this would have the added bonus of reducing division in society because there would be less disparity in wealth. So we need more progressive taxation/benefits*. The money's there, it just needs redistribution. We could start this tomorrow, and the poor, misguided Reform supporters would slowly stop looking for someone to blame and have no need for the populists' scapegoats**. Of the man parties, only the Greens are offering this.

[Sandydragon]

I listened to a couple of voice interviews on a podcast recently where protestors were being asked why they didnt like immigrants. To paraphrase:

They're dirty.
They are taking our f*cking jobs
They get benefits
We give them houses and hotels for free
They're a bunch of terrorists, its not safe to let them in.
We've got f*ck all.

So much of that is just a selection of tropes. Without immigration, many of our key sectors, including the NHS, just simply could not function, not to mention care homes. They are doing those jobs because British people don't want them. We know that benefits arent just handed out on arrival, and whilst there are undoubtedly some undesirables in those who do arrive, its a tiny minority.

The issues that drive this though do come across. People are protesting because they have the perception they have nothing. Multiculturalism, internationalism, capitalism, etc, etc, etc, none of those have made their lives better. They are poor, struggling and feel ignored by politicians of all persuasions. Boris tapped into this a little with levelling up, but didn't have a coherent plan. Immigrants are a useful, identifiable 'other' to blame all their ills on. Nothing new there, but social media amplifies things and allows for national coordination in a way not previously possible. It was the same motivation that drove Brexit in many cases - a sense of wanting to lash out at someone, anyone, and the ruling class was as good a target as anyone.

Many of these people believe in Farage and Reform. They are providing simple answers to complex problems but it's working.

In addition to levelling up, the lack of housing is causing a real issue. Immigrants given houses when UK born people cant get social housing is a huge flashpoint. I don't condone violence; I do understand why that is so hugely frustrating. We need more social housing and affordable housing, and we need it soon. Take the out-and-out racists to one side, many of those who are angry are angry because they see the perception of immigration impacting them. "Immigrants are stealing your homes" might be rubbish, but when you can't buy or rent a home (or your children can't) its easy to see why its persuasive. We need to tackle some of these underlying problems if we are to prevent riots occuring again.

I completely agree that it's depressing watching/listening and some of the racism just isnt worth the effort. But in an amongst the racism are genuine concerns which we do need to understand and address.

Leaving aside the worst of them, the ones who just want an excuse to destroy things and injure people, this is arising from poverty and the fact that things have been getting worse for the poorest for years now, with no obvious sign of improvement. This has set the scene for the easy answer to be provided by the populists.

They've played the EU card that had been set up with decades of groundwork by the right wing media and politicians. That's done, the right got what they wanted and what do you know? The easy answer was bullshit, no answer at all.

So what's next? Oh yeah, something else the right wing media and politicians have been lying about for decades - immigrants. If it wasn't the EU making your life so shit, it must be all those immigrants - bullshit, easy answer #2. It's a lie but there has to be an answer, right?

The answer is to make the poor less poor. How can this be done without increasing the size of the pie (because that's something that's at least partly beyond the government's control)? Increase equality. Share out what we have more evenly. And, in addition to making the lives of the poorest better, this would have the added bonus of reducing division in society because there would be less disparity in wealth. So we need more progressive taxation/benefits*. The money's there, it just needs redistribution. We could start this tomorrow, and the poor, misguided Reform supporters would slowly stop looking for someone to blame and have no need for the populists' scapegoats**. Of the man parties, only the Greens are offering this.

* getting rid of the right to buy your council flat/house would be a big help too. Anything to help spread rather than concentrate the wealth.

** obviously competently processing the backlog of immigrants' cases would help, but this would just help to make the scapegoats less visible/plausible. It wouldn't directly tackle the cause of division and discontent.

This is a good point and it’s essentially a government made problem by not having enough people to process claims as a way of deterring immigration.

Labour must engage with the EU and try to restore the pre Brexit situation where we had a right of return in return for doing our fair share.

[Sandydragon]

And in the case of inequality, Boris promised to level up which basically didn’t happen. But large parts of the country have been ignored for a long time

[Stom]

I think everyone knows that I’ma big fan of changing the tax system. But you really think that’s not going to be jumped on instantly? My family are grouching about tax rises and there haven’t been any yet!

I do feel like society is somewhat broken. There’s an amazing minority who are incredible, truly wonderful. But the majority? All for themselves.

[Donny osmond]

So planning the violent destruction of a hotel containing human beings gets you 20 months but planning a peaceful blockage of the M25 gets you 5 years? Yeah, that sounds about right for UK 2024. It must be that two tier thing they're going on about.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... locked-m25
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ar ... t-violence

Planning, and attempting, the violent destruction of a hotel containing human beings should absolutely get more than 20 months.

The JSO protestors were not jailed for 5 years for “a peaceful blockage of the M25”. Here’s the sentencing remarks for an act that caused genuine pain and distress for thousands:
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/upl ... others.pdf

Drawing one sided ‘comparisons’ like this is a big part of the problem the uk and others face in combating misinformation.

[Sandydragon]

So planning the violent destruction of a hotel containing human beings gets you 20 months but planning a peaceful blockage of the M25 gets you 5 years? Yeah, that sounds about right for UK 2024. It must be that two tier thing they're going on about.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... locked-m25
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ar ... t-violence

Planning, and attempting, the violent destruction of a hotel containing human beings should absolutely get more than 20 months.

The JSO protestors were not jailed for 5 years for “a peaceful blockage of the M25”. Here’s the sentencing remarks for an act that caused genuine pain and distress for thousands:
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/upl ... others.pdf

Drawing one sided ‘comparisons’ like this is a big part of the problem the uk and others face in combating misinformation.

Agreed.

If someone had died then I expect there would have been a much more serious charge, or had been seriously injured for that matter. But I suspect the CPS went for the charge that was easiest to prove in order to have a quick trial and get a couple of idiots off the street and send a message to others.

[Mellsblue]

So planning the violent destruction of a hotel containing human beings gets you 20 months but planning a peaceful blockage of the M25 gets you 5 years? Yeah, that sounds about right for UK 2024. It must be that two tier thing they're going on about.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... locked-m25
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ar ... t-violence

Planning, and attempting, the violent destruction of a hotel containing human beings should absolutely get more than 20 months.

The JSO protestors were not jailed for 5 years for “a peaceful blockage of the M25”. Here’s the sentencing remarks for an act that caused genuine pain and distress for thousands:
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/upl ... others.pdf

Drawing one sided ‘comparisons’ like this is a big part of the problem the uk and others face in combating misinformation.

Agreed.

You could argue that the hotel incident was pushing towards attempted murder. But I suspect the CPS went for the charge that was easiest to prove in order to have a quick trial and get a couple of idiots off the street and send a message to others.

Seconded.

[Mellsblue]

And in the case of inequality, Boris promised to level up which basically didn’t happen. But large parts of the country have been ignored for a long time

He got it started - I worked on numerous projects in Bradford funded by DLUHC and know of many in Grimsby* - but, as you allude to in your next paragraph, it isn’t a short term fix.

*the founder of an amazing community housing group who is a committted socialist was full of praise for Gove of all people.

[Sandydragon]

And in the case of inequality, Boris promised to level up which basically didn’t happen. But large parts of the country have been ignored for a long time

He got it started - I worked on numerous projects in Bradford funded by DLUHC and know of many in Grimsby* - but, as you allude to in your next paragraph, it isn’t a short term fix.

*the founder of an amazing community housing group who is a committted socialist was full of praise for Gove of all people.

Gove was pretty decent in that role.

Levelling up Will take generations after the decline of industry in so many areas. It was right of Boris to identify it as an issue at all, even if he was just interested in votes in the red wall. Starmer needs to ensure that work is continued.

[Son of Mathonwy]

And in the case of inequality, Boris promised to level up which basically didn’t happen. But large parts of the country have been ignored for a long time

Levelling up is an ill-defined concept (what else would you expect, it's one of Johnson's) that is related to the idea of regional equality. Which has obviously not been a priority nor a success in the hands of the Tories.

But regional equality is of course just one, limited, kind of equality. Having regional equality (depending on how it was done) wouldn't necessarily improve economic equality (although I'm all for it, it's a move in the right direction).

My pont is that it's the poor who are struggling and falling for the easy answers from the right and going after their invented scapegoats as a result. So reducing overall inequality would solve the problem at source.

What do you think? Do you think relative poverty is the underlying problem? If not then what? If you do, but don't think reducing inequality would help then what would you do to reduce poverty and give people better lives?

[Son of Mathonwy]

So planning the violent destruction of a hotel containing human beings gets you 20 months but planning a peaceful blockage of the M25 gets you 5 years? Yeah, that sounds about right for UK 2024. It must be that two tier thing they're going on about.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... locked-m25
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ar ... t-violence

Planning, and attempting, the violent destruction of a hotel containing human beings should absolutely get more than 20 months.

The JSO protestors were not jailed for 5 years for “a peaceful blockage of the M25”. Here’s the sentencing remarks for an act that caused genuine pain and distress for thousands:
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/upl ... others.pdf

Drawing one sided ‘comparisons’ like this is a big part of the problem the uk and others face in combating misinformation.

Agreed.

If someone had died then I expect there would have been a much more serious charge, or had been seriously injured for that matter. But I suspect the CPS went for the charge that was easiest to prove in order to have a quick trial and get a couple of idiots off the street and send a message to others.

Blocking the M25 is a massive inconvenience to those caught up in it. Setting fire to a hotel containing people is life-threatening. That the former gets greater punishment is wrong.

Agreed, perhaps these are the easy pickings, hopefully those found to have actually set things alight receive considerably longer sentences as the worst cases of arson or indeed attempted murder should receive. We shall see.

[Sandydragon]

Planning, and attempting, the violent destruction of a hotel containing human beings should absolutely get more than 20 months.

The JSO protestors were not jailed for 5 years for “a peaceful blockage of the M25”. Here’s the sentencing remarks for an act that caused genuine pain and distress for thousands:
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/upl ... others.pdf

Drawing one sided ‘comparisons’ like this is a big part of the problem the uk and others face in combating misinformation.

Agreed.

If someone had died then I expect there would have been a much more serious charge, or had been seriously injured for that matter. But I suspect the CPS went for the charge that was easiest to prove in order to have a quick trial and get a couple of idiots off the street and send a message to others.

Blocking the M25 is a massive inconvenience to those caught up in it. Setting fire to a hotel containing people is life-threatening. That the former gets greater punishment is wrong.

Agreed, perhaps these are the easy pickings, hopefully those found to have actually set things alight receive considerably longer sentences as the worst cases of arson or indeed attempted murder should receive. We shall see.

The two examples were sentenced for online shit stirring. Technically they didn’t set fire to anything. Those who did should be done for arson, maybe more, but since those who set the fires have their own agency, there’s only so far the prosecution would want to stretch things and risk a jury finding them not guilty.

The more I reflect on this the more it looks like the CPS wanted a quick win with no chance of failure to send a message. That makes sense. Spending months arguing that this could have been conspiracy to commit murder could have seen them acquitted