U20 JWC

[Banquo]

I typically take these lists with a pinch of salt, but Angus Hall caught my eye - is it possible we have a 12 ranked in the top 20 global prospects? Surely not …

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/england- ... s-in-2024/

Good 12 prospects we have plenty of. Getting them to produce quality performances at club and then international level seems to be where it falls down.

Kelly, Woodward, Atkinson, Ma'asi-White, Kerr, Anyanwu, Litchfield, Ojomoh, Hartley, could even stretch to Dingwall here as well as a youngster who's shown promise and not managed to either breakthrough, replicate form consistently or transfer to international level.

Bit harsh on Hartley, but plays to my point about opportunity, ditto Seb Atkinson (who has looked decent for glaws, given a run). Dingwall is actually a good example of a player seizing a club position - tho initially at 13- and hanging onto it, sufficient to warrant international selection, and he's been in a lot of EPS squads now, so a bit of a stretch.

[FKAS]

I typically take these lists with a pinch of salt, but Angus Hall caught my eye - is it possible we have a 12 ranked in the top 20 global prospects? Surely not …

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/england- ... s-in-2024/

Good 12 prospects we have plenty of. Getting them to produce quality performances at club and then international level seems to be where it falls down.

Kelly, Woodward, Atkinson, Ma'asi-White, Kerr, Anyanwu, Litchfield, Ojomoh, Hartley, could even stretch to Dingwall here as well as a youngster who's shown promise and not managed to either breakthrough, replicate form consistently or transfer to international level.

Bit harsh on Hartley, but plays to my point about opportunity, ditto Seb Atkinson (who has looked decent for glaws, given a run). Dingwall is actually a good example of a player seizing a club position - tho initially at 13- and hanging onto it, sufficient to warrant international selection, and he's been in a lot of EPS squads now, so a bit of a stretch.

Hartley looked like was about to break through and be a regular feature for Sarries then got injured so hasn't quite yet.

Seb Atkinson has generally looked decent but his form was up and down last season. Iirc he got dropped briefly.

Dingwall following the last of the three criteria with not being able to bring his club form to international level (yet).

[Banquo]

Good 12 prospects we have plenty of. Getting them to produce quality performances at club and then international level seems to be where it falls down.

Kelly, Woodward, Atkinson, Ma'asi-White, Kerr, Anyanwu, Litchfield, Ojomoh, Hartley, could even stretch to Dingwall here as well as a youngster who's shown promise and not managed to either breakthrough, replicate form consistently or transfer to international level.

Bit harsh on Hartley, but plays to my point about opportunity, ditto Seb Atkinson (who has looked decent for glaws, given a run). Dingwall is actually a good example of a player seizing a club position - tho initially at 13- and hanging onto it, sufficient to warrant international selection, and he's been in a lot of EPS squads now, so a bit of a stretch.

Hartley looked like was about to break through and be a regular feature for Sarries then got injured so hasn't quite yet.

Seb Atkinson has generally looked decent but his form was up and down last season. Iirc he got dropped briefly.

Dingwall following the last of the three criteria with not being able to bring his club form to international level (yet).

No wonder we don't get talent through with this kind of evaluation and write off of players. I know you are on the wind up re Dingwall, but two caps in an iffy team doesn't tell you much.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Out of interest are we on about Gus Hall or Ollie Davies? Both of them can play 12, but Hall is much more of an outside back and Davies is a 10.

[FKAS]

Bit harsh on Hartley, but plays to my point about opportunity, ditto Seb Atkinson (who has looked decent for glaws, given a run). Dingwall is actually a good example of a player seizing a club position - tho initially at 13- and hanging onto it, sufficient to warrant international selection, and he's been in a lot of EPS squads now, so a bit of a stretch.

Hartley looked like was about to break through and be a regular feature for Sarries then got injured so hasn't quite yet.

Seb Atkinson has generally looked decent but his form was up and down last season. Iirc he got dropped briefly.

Dingwall following the last of the three criteria with not being able to bring his club form to international level (yet).

No wonder we don't get talent through with this kind of evaluation and write off of players. I know you are on the wind up re Dingwall, but two caps in an iffy team doesn't tell you much.

Who said I wrote them off? I even included (yet) at the end of the Dingwall line. We just need one (ideally two) to kick on a bit. There's bags of potential between them all.

[Scrumhead]

Out of interest are we on about Gus Hall or Ollie Davies? Both of them can play 12, but Hall is much more of an outside back and Davies is a 10.

I was talking about Gus Hall but I’m a little confused as I’ve only ever seen him on the wing yet the list has him as a 12?

[Epaminondas Pules]

Out of interest are we on about Gus Hall or Ollie Davies? Both of them can play 12, but Hall is much more of an outside back and Davies is a 10.

I was talking about Gus Hall but I’m a little confused as I’ve only ever seen him on the wing yet the list has him as a 12?

He played 12 consistently for Sarries U18, but that in part is because of the backline they had available. He can play across the backs, but whenever he’s stepped up a level, like England U18s he’s largely moved out to 13 or wing. 13 was usually taken by Nick Lilley so Hall played back three. To me he’s more of a back three player.

[FKAS]

Versatility isn't a bad thing, particularly in a young player who's trying to get some game time. Should make him a good candidate for the 23 shirt if nothing else.

[Oakboy]

Will SB ever back his judgement on young players like the cricket management have done? Choosing Bashir, Smith and Atkinson for positions different from their county roles is quite a decision. I suppose he has gone against majority opinion by selecting Lawrence at 12.

There are major developmental differences between rugby and cricket of course. Assuming those three players go on to become fixtures, it will be despite their developmental channel rather than because of it. Ultimately, talent is talent. Does rugby waste it?

[FKAS]

Will SB ever back his judgement on young players like the cricket management have done? Choosing Bashir, Smith and Atkinson for positions different from their county roles is quite a decision. I suppose he has gone against majority opinion by selecting Lawrence at 12.

There are major developmental differences between rugby and cricket of course. Assuming those three players go on to become fixtures, it will be despite their developmental channel rather than because of it. Ultimately, talent is talent. Does rugby waste it?

I don't know what cricket has done because I find it dull but until recently they were still rolling out Broad and Anderson.

Borthwick has a pretty young squad outside of the front row but that's not entirely unusual for rugby. If you remove Marler, Cole, George and Slade from the squad we sent to NZ I think the rest of the squad are under 30. We saw Baxter, Sleightholme and Roebuck all make their debuts this summer (did Oghre as well, can't remember). Fin Smith, CCS, Dingwall and IFW made their debuts in the 6N. I'd say he's using the talent personally it's just gradually and not wholesale changes.

[Which Tyler]

I don't know what cricket has done because I find it dull but until recently they were still rolling out Broad and Anderson.

Borthwick has a pretty young squad outside of the front row but that's not entirely unusual for rugby. If you remove Marler, Cole, George and Slade from the squad we sent to NZ I think the rest of the squad are under 30. We saw Baxter, Sleightholme and Roebuck all make their debuts this summer (did Oghre as well, can't remember). Fin Smith, CCS, Dingwall and IFW made their debuts in the 6N. I'd say he's using the talent personally it's just gradually and not wholesale changes.

Yes, but...
Any rugby player over the age of 25 is simply too old, and past it, and needs to be replaced now, because they've only a 50:50 chance of making it to the world cup after next!

[FKAS]

I don't know what cricket has done because I find it dull but until recently they were still rolling out Broad and Anderson.

Borthwick has a pretty young squad outside of the front row but that's not entirely unusual for rugby. If you remove Marler, Cole, George and Slade from the squad we sent to NZ I think the rest of the squad are under 30. We saw Baxter, Sleightholme and Roebuck all make their debuts this summer (did Oghre as well, can't remember). Fin Smith, CCS, Dingwall and IFW made their debuts in the 6N. I'd say he's using the talent personally it's just gradually and not wholesale changes.

Yes, but...
Any rugby player over the age of 25 is simply too old, and past it, and needs to be replaced now, because they've only a 50:50 chance of making it to the world cup after next!

bloody geriatrics. It's all about 2031.

[Banquo]

Hartley looked like was about to break through and be a regular feature for Sarries then got injured so hasn't quite yet.

Seb Atkinson has generally looked decent but his form was up and down last season. Iirc he got dropped briefly.

Dingwall following the last of the three criteria with not being able to bring his club form to international level (yet).

No wonder we don't get talent through with this kind of evaluation and write off of players. I know you are on the wind up re Dingwall, but two caps in an iffy team doesn't tell you much.

Who said I wrote them off? I even included (yet) at the end of the Dingwall line. We just need one (ideally two) to kick on a bit. There's bags of potential between them all.

sounded like you had already moved on from them, not that it matters whether you do or not. Internet misinterpretation I guess.

[Banquo]

Will SB ever back his judgement on young players like the cricket management have done? Choosing Bashir, Smith and Atkinson for positions different from their county roles is quite a decision. I suppose he has gone against majority opinion by selecting Lawrence at 12.

There are major developmental differences between rugby and cricket of course. Assuming those three players go on to become fixtures, it will be despite their developmental channel rather than because of it. Ultimately, talent is talent. Does rugby waste it?

most of the talent 'wasted' is well before they get into SB/predecessors eyeline....but as per many posts, the RFU do seem to have wised up to it, at least at rep age group level.

[Puja]

Will SB ever back his judgement on young players like the cricket management have done? Choosing Bashir, Smith and Atkinson for positions different from their county roles is quite a decision. I suppose he has gone against majority opinion by selecting Lawrence at 12.

There are major developmental differences between rugby and cricket of course. Assuming those three players go on to become fixtures, it will be despite their developmental channel rather than because of it. Ultimately, talent is talent. Does rugby waste it?

I don't know what cricket has done because I find it dull but until recently they were still rolling out Broad and Anderson.

Borthwick has a pretty young squad outside of the front row but that's not entirely unusual for rugby. If you remove Marler, Cole, George and Slade from the squad we sent to NZ I think the rest of the squad are under 30. We saw Baxter, Sleightholme and Roebuck all make their debuts this summer (did Oghre as well, can't remember). Fin Smith, CCS, Dingwall and IFW made their debuts in the 6N. I'd say he's using the talent personally it's just gradually and not wholesale changes.

Oakbiy is referencing that England have picked and committed to two young and inexperienced players in very specialist positions, Bashir and Smith, despite the fact that they are not first choice for those positions for their clubs, and passing over the EQ players who are first choice for their clubs and who were previously part of the England setup, on the basis that the experienced players have hit a ceiling which isn't good enough and the youngsters have the raw material to be great. The rugby equivalent would be Solid Backfootplay declaring that he is ditching Cole and Underhill and committing to picking Sela and Pollock for the next 12 months, come what may.

The difference is that cricket is an entirely different sport, in many different senses. It's a more individual sport, so a batsman can deliver a dozen innings without reaching 20 and the rest of the team won't suffer if they all do well enough, plus England have soft-serve opponents for the next 10 months or so, so there is a very easy bedding in. It's also a sport where county cricket isn't necessarily a good prep for Tests and players are largely removed from their counties and hot-housed anyway, so internationals are almost a different sport - you don't need to have a run of club games to be match-fit and battle-hardened.

Wales are trying it to a certain extent - committing hard and early to Griffin, Jenkins, Hathaway etc - but they're also on a 9-game losing streak which isn't a great advertisement for the tactic, and I'm not convinced they're not going to break Griffin with what they're doing as well.

Puja

[Banquo]

Cricket and Rugby in different sports shock

[Oakboy]

The top team sports have some similarities. Managerially, one of the hardest decisions is to replace a good player with a better one, taking account of the potential improvement for the team. Often, that involves contraversial selection in terms of timing. Rugby should not be slow to pick the best bits from other sports. Burying amateur tradition could be a fair start!

[Banquo]

The top team sports have some similarities. Managerially, one of the hardest decisions is to replace a good player with a better one, taking account of the potential improvement for the team. Often, that involves contraversial selection in terms of timing. Rugby should not be slow to pick the best bits from other sports. Burying amateur tradition could be a fair start!

Amateur was buried a long time ago. Plenty of young stars in rugby, even in conservative England. Not sure what you are complaining about now tbh.

[Timbo]

Sarries u19’s thrashed Leinster u19’s today. Does seem to be a lot of talent coming through at the moment.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Sarries u19’s thrashed Leinster u19’s today. Does seem to be a lot of talent coming through at the moment.

I've not seen the Leinster team, but that's quite an under strength Sarries side.

[Timbo]

Sarries u19’s thrashed Leinster u19’s today. Does seem to be a lot of talent coming through at the moment.

I've not seen the Leinster team, but that's quite an under strength Sarries side.

I think both teams were missing a few away with their respective u18 national teams. A stronger Sarries team also thrashed a near full strength Ulster side the week before.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Sarries u19’s thrashed Leinster u19’s today. Does seem to be a lot of talent coming through at the moment.

I've not seen the Leinster team, but that's quite an under strength Sarries side.

I think both teams were missing a few away with their respective u18 national teams. A stronger Sarries team also thrashed a near full strength Ulster side the week before.

They have got a hell of a group of youngsters coming through

[Which Tyler]

U18s in 5 minutes


Livestream: https://live.supersportschools.com/even ... c063e4323/

And, of course, I've a New Patient (2 Hr appointment) at 12.45