Quins v Sarries

[Epaminondas Pules]

Fun game that. Kenningham and Baxter were massive!

Earl had another good game. Willis was less effective in the first half but huge in the second! Elliott continues to impress. Shame he didn’t get the ball more.

[Mikey Brown]

I'm right there with you on Earl. I'd say you have to pick him at 8 for England with his credit in the bank, but it's not possible to just port him over to 7 and expect the same results - it's a different role with different responsibilities and he won't be able to run in all the same positions that he does at 8, because the 8 would want to be doing those. That's not to say he doesn't have the capability to be England's 7, but he's not who I would pick there.

TWillis has got to be nipping at his heels for England though. That was an incredible performance and, like you said, half his metres were after riding a tackle that would've stopped someone else. I'd be very interested to see if that can translate to the higher level.

Puja

Knobhead.


Earl that is, and I thought he was poor yesterday. Just died with it far too often when decent options outside him.

Willis offers the hard nosed carrying we've often missed....but will it translate intly? We wont know unless we try.

On 7, Earl really is a 7 tbh, but you are likely right that his intl USP would be lost if doing a 7's tasking; who would you pick there.

Hard to say, cause the stupid way this season is organised means that there's only been 4 games before the squad is named and only 1 more after that before it's into camp and preparing for New Zealand, which isn't enough time to see anything about anybody's form, especially with players coming back from England and injury. I like the look of Pepper, but he's had 2.5 games this season, which isn't enough. TCurry and Underhill have had 84 mins and 34 mins respectively across a couple of games - do you trust to "class is permanent" for them?

I would say that, if TCurry is in any kind of fitness and form, which he did look like being last weekend, the 7 shirt should be his to lose in my mind. But the evidence base is so godsdamned small!

Puja

I don’t know if my perspective is just skewed on Curry because he set such a high bar early on, but I don’t know that he’s had any really great England performances for quite a long time now. Maybe I’m missing some obvious ones, but I think he’s at a point he should really have to demand the shirt again.

I was at a similar point with Underhill until not that long ago, it didn’t seem either had hit the heights of 2019 again and both had a number of injuries.

I don’t know who that leaves though. Kenningham was fantastic, but that was his first big game for a long time. It’s a shame Pearson sort of dropped off the radar a bit.

[Puja]

Knobhead.


Earl that is, and I thought he was poor yesterday. Just died with it far too often when decent options outside him.

Willis offers the hard nosed carrying we've often missed....but will it translate intly? We wont know unless we try.

On 7, Earl really is a 7 tbh, but you are likely right that his intl USP would be lost if doing a 7's tasking; who would you pick there.

Hard to say, cause the stupid way this season is organised means that there's only been 4 games before the squad is named and only 1 more after that before it's into camp and preparing for New Zealand, which isn't enough time to see anything about anybody's form, especially with players coming back from England and injury. I like the look of Pepper, but he's had 2.5 games this season, which isn't enough. TCurry and Underhill have had 84 mins and 34 mins respectively across a couple of games - do you trust to "class is permanent" for them?

I would say that, if TCurry is in any kind of fitness and form, which he did look like being last weekend, the 7 shirt should be his to lose in my mind. But the evidence base is so godsdamned small!

Puja

Kenningham?

Kenningham was immense against Saracens and has had a great start to the season, but 4 games is barely any time to show any kind of form.

Puja

[Oakboy]

I don’t know if my perspective is just skewed on Curry because he set such a high bar early on, but I don’t know that he’s had any really great England performances for quite a long time now. Maybe I’m missing some obvious ones, but I think he’s at a point he should really have to demand the shirt again.

That seems a reasonable assessment. Linking it with Puja's point about the lack of club game-time this season, it's fair to expect him to miss out on the AIs. Until he reaches his former standard (if he can, after such serious injury) others have stronger claims to the shirt.

[Mellsblue]

I’m enjoying the thought process of ‘we need less games so theres no clash with test rugby… oh, shit, with so few games it’s hard to assess form’.
Not having a dig as I’m in the same thought boat.

[Mikey Brown]

Judging by club form is old hat, anyway. It’s meaningless compared to PERFORMING WELL IN-CAMP™.

[Puja]

I’m enjoying the thought process of ‘we need less games so theres no clash with test rugby… oh, shit, with so few games it’s hard to assess form’.
Not having a dig as I’m in the same thought boat.

It's more how late the season started. Ordinarily we'd be into the first European round by now!

Damned moving of the summer test window from June to July. We just gave that to the SH with no concessions and it's bloody inconvenient to our season structure - we either start the season at the beginning of September and give the internationals no rest, or we start late, in shittier weather and darker light so we can't have the same grandiose opening to a season that we used to, and compromise our selection for the AIs.

I don’t know if my perspective is just skewed on Curry because he set such a high bar early on, but I don’t know that he’s had any really great England performances for quite a long time now. Maybe I’m missing some obvious ones, but I think he’s at a point he should really have to demand the shirt again.

That seems a reasonable assessment. Linking it with Puja's point about the lack of club game-time this season, it's fair to expect him to miss out on the AIs. Until he reaches his former standard (if he can, after such serious injury) others have stronger claims to the shirt.

Not unfair. It's a bit of a difficult one. Underhill's the man in possession and was good over the summer, but hardly burning the house down and he's barely played with injury this season. I can't really disagree with your assessments on TCurry, although he did look very handy for Sale the other day (but again, just one game). Earl seems the obvious answer, but all of his good England performances have been while he's been tasked with the carrying and responsibilities of an 8 and, on the 3 occasions he's played at 7, he's been lacklustre (and it was notable how quiet he looked when TWillis was stepping in to handle all the carrying and responsibilities of 8 on the weekend). BCurry's always excellent for Sale, but still feels like he's a step off the top level. The likes of Pepper and Pollock haven't got enough of a record to realistically be championed for selection.

I don't know really - hence the defaulting to hoping TCurry will come good.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

I’m enjoying the thought process of ‘we need less games so theres no clash with test rugby… oh, shit, with so few games it’s hard to assess form’.
Not having a dig as I’m in the same thought boat.

It's more how late the season started. Ordinarily we'd be into the first European round by now!

Damned moving of the summer test window from June to July. We just gave that to the SH with no concessions and it's bloody inconvenient to our season structure - we either start the season at the beginning of September and give the internationals no rest, or we start late, in shittier weather and darker light so we can't have the same grandiose opening to a season that we used to, and compromise our selection for the AIs.

I memory serves, ‘we’ were happy to shift the season as it means the end of season (with the money making finals) is in a better weather window.

[Puja]

I’m enjoying the thought process of ‘we need less games so theres no clash with test rugby… oh, shit, with so few games it’s hard to assess form’.
Not having a dig as I’m in the same thought boat.

It's more how late the season started. Ordinarily we'd be into the first European round by now!

Damned moving of the summer test window from June to July. We just gave that to the SH with no concessions and it's bloody inconvenient to our season structure - we either start the season at the beginning of September and give the internationals no rest, or we start late, in shittier weather and darker light so we can't have the same grandiose opening to a season that we used to, and compromise our selection for the AIs.

I memory serves, ‘we’ were happy to shift the season as it means the end of season (with the money making finals) is in a better weather window.

Seems bizarre to me - the last weekend in May is hardly awful weather and unlikely to be drastically improved by shifting the final a week or two into June, whereas shifting the opener from the beginning of September to the end makes a very big difference in weather.

Probably some method to the madness somewhere - I'm not in charge and it's probably a good idea that I'm not, cause I'd've probably bankrupted them 5 times over with silly ideas by now!

Puja

[Banquo]

Fun game that. Kenningham and Baxter were massive!

Earl had another good game. Willis was less effective in the first half but huge in the second! Elliott continues to impress. Shame he didn’t get the ball more.

thought Earl was very wasteful and predictable as a carrier. plus knobhead

[Epaminondas Pules]

I’m enjoying the thought process of ‘we need less games so theres no clash with test rugby… oh, shit, with so few games it’s hard to assess form’.
Not having a dig as I’m in the same thought boat.

It's more how late the season started. Ordinarily we'd be into the first European round by now!

Damned moving of the summer test window from June to July. We just gave that to the SH with no concessions and it's bloody inconvenient to our season structure - we either start the season at the beginning of September and give the internationals no rest, or we start late, in shittier weather and darker light so we can't have the same grandiose opening to a season that we used to, and compromise our selection for the AIs.

I don’t know if my perspective is just skewed on Curry because he set such a high bar early on, but I don’t know that he’s had any really great England performances for quite a long time now. Maybe I’m missing some obvious ones, but I think he’s at a point he should really have to demand the shirt again.

That seems a reasonable assessment. Linking it with Puja's point about the lack of club game-time this season, it's fair to expect him to miss out on the AIs. Until he reaches his former standard (if he can, after such serious injury) others have stronger claims to the shirt.

Not unfair. It's a bit of a difficult one. Underhill's the man in possession and was good over the summer, but hardly burning the house down and he's barely played with injury this season. I can't really disagree with your assessments on TCurry, although he did look very handy for Sale the other day (but again, just one game). Earl seems the obvious answer, but all of his good England performances have been while he's been tasked with the carrying and responsibilities of an 8 and, on the 3 occasions he's played at 7, he's been lacklustre (and it was notable how quiet he looked when TWillis was stepping in to handle all the carrying and responsibilities of 8 on the weekend). BCurry's always excellent for Sale, but still feels like he's a step off the top level. The likes of Pepper and Pollock haven't got enough of a record to realistically be championed for selection.

I don't know really - hence the defaulting to hoping TCurry will come good.

Puja

Did he? He carried a shit load and made a decent amount of post contact metres. Willis was well nullified in the first half, but superb in the second.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Fun game that. Kenningham and Baxter were massive!

Earl had another good game. Willis was less effective in the first half but huge in the second! Elliott continues to impress. Shame he didn’t get the ball more.

thought Earl was very wasteful and predictable as a carrier. plus knobhead

He did his job well ball in hand. Made contact metres and got the ball through his hands plenty.

And, I mean, he got pinged for his mouth once, having opened it before, and then shut up.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Fun game that. Kenningham and Baxter were massive!

Earl had another good game. Willis was less effective in the first half but huge in the second! Elliott continues to impress. Shame he didn’t get the ball more.

thought Earl was very wasteful and predictable as a carrier. plus knobhead

He did his job well ball in hand. Made contact metres and got the ball through his hands plenty.

And, I mean, he got pinged for his mouth once, having opened it before, and then shut up.

Just looking and Earl made 24 carries, 12 passes, 45 metres (one decent line break in that), missed one tackle and gave away two penalties, one of which was a shocking decision, the other for opening his gob.

[Puja]

thought Earl was very wasteful and predictable as a carrier. plus knobhead

He did his job well ball in hand. Made contact metres and got the ball through his hands plenty.

And, I mean, he got pinged for his mouth once, having opened it before, and then shut up.

Just looking and Earl made 24 carries, 12 passes, 45 metres (one decent line break in that), missed one tackle and gave away two penalties, one of which was a shocking decision, the other for opening his gob.

I stand corrected - those are decent numbers for carries (albeit, as you say, a large chunk of the metres was one line break). Possibly the impression I got from comparing him to Kenningham on the flank, who probably didn't make as many carries or metres, but was a hell of a lot more effective in rucks and just seemed to be first to everywhere.

Puja

[Banquo]

Fun game that. Kenningham and Baxter were massive!

Earl had another good game. Willis was less effective in the first half but huge in the second! Elliott continues to impress. Shame he didn’t get the ball more.

thought Earl was very wasteful and predictable as a carrier. plus knobhead

He did his job well ball in hand. Made contact metres and got the ball through his hands plenty.

And, I mean, he got pinged for his mouth once, having opened it before, and then shut up.

I disagree tbh- there were loads of times he had men free outside him, and he chose to cut back in and die with it....with a couple of good busts in between. Remains a knobhead, one pen too many for that sort of sh+t.

Looking at your stats- its impressive that he touched the ball 36 times, passing on one third of them; but carrying 24 times for 45 yards including a bust, kind of makes my point about dying into contact frankly.

(btw where are the stats, my normal source has gone)

[Banquo]

He did his job well ball in hand. Made contact metres and got the ball through his hands plenty.

And, I mean, he got pinged for his mouth once, having opened it before, and then shut up.

Just looking and Earl made 24 carries, 12 passes, 45 metres (one decent line break in that), missed one tackle and gave away two penalties, one of which was a shocking decision, the other for opening his gob.

I stand corrected - those are decent numbers for carries (albeit, as you say, a large chunk of the metres was one line break). Possibly the impression I got from comparing him to Kenningham on the flank, who probably didn't make as many carries or metres, but was a hell of a lot more effective in rucks and just seemed to be first to everywhere.

Puja

....I stand by what we both said....24 carries for 45 metres isn't that special, other than workrate. I'll bow to workrate and more offloads than I thought, but imo he was too predictable and not nearly as effective as usual. Quins marked him well, which means likely more room somewhere else.

and he's a knobhead.

[Epaminondas Pules]

thought Earl was very wasteful and predictable as a carrier. plus knobhead

He did his job well ball in hand. Made contact metres and got the ball through his hands plenty.

And, I mean, he got pinged for his mouth once, having opened it before, and then shut up.

I disagree tbh- there were loads of times he had men free outside him, and he chose to cut back in and die with it....with a couple of good busts in between. Remains a knobhead, one pen too many for that sort of sh+t.

Looking at your stats- its impressive that he touched the ball 36 times, passing on one third of them; but carrying 24 times for 45 yards including a bust, kind of makes my point about dying into contact frankly.

(btw where are the stats, my normal source has gone)

Then Willis was 22 carries for 47 metres and only 4 passes and 3 offloads. Earl had one offload.

And Sarries put stats from the game on the website. Statscentre, for both teams, which is pretty decent. Doesn't cover everything, but pretty good in absence of the usual sources.

[Banquo]

He did his job well ball in hand. Made contact metres and got the ball through his hands plenty.

And, I mean, he got pinged for his mouth once, having opened it before, and then shut up.

I disagree tbh- there were loads of times he had men free outside him, and he chose to cut back in and die with it....with a couple of good busts in between. Remains a knobhead, one pen too many for that sort of sh+t.

Looking at your stats- its impressive that he touched the ball 36 times, passing on one third of them; but carrying 24 times for 45 yards including a bust, kind of makes my point about dying into contact frankly.

(btw where are the stats, my normal source has gone)

Then Willis was 22 carries for 47 metres and only 4 passes and 3 offloads. Earl had one offload.

And Sarries put stats from the game on the website. Statscentre, for both teams, which is pretty decent. Doesn't cover everything, but pretty good in absence of the usual sources.

Willis missed a bit of the first half, and is a noticeably tighter carrier (and I don't think had a big bust). The point I'm making is that Earl had a load of ball, and ended up trucking it up 2/3 rds of the time (lost count of how many times he stepped back towards where the ball had come from, only to be stopped in his tracks, with room outside) as he was being heavily marked, which played into Quins hands. Its amazing how much carrying Sarries did for so little reward tbh.

[Mellsblue]

Please provide stats to either prove or disprove Earl is a knob head.

[Mikey Brown]

I bet he voted Tory.

[Puja]

And Sarries put stats from the game on the website. Statscentre, for both teams, which is pretty decent. Doesn't cover everything, but pretty good in absence of the usual sources.

I miss The Rugby Magazine

Puja

[Scrumhead]

Yes. A huge loss I still have not fully come to terms with.

[Epaminondas Pules]

And Sarries put stats from the game on the website. Statscentre, for both teams, which is pretty decent. Doesn't cover everything, but pretty good in absence of the usual sources.

I miss The Rugby Magazine

Puja

Scrum was decent too for stats, but they've lost that too now.

[Banquo]

Espn seem to have stopped as well