Autumn Internationals

[Sandydragon]

Here’s the squad

Forwards: Nicky Smith, Gareth Thomas, Kemsley Mathias, Ryan Elias,Dewi Lake (captain), Evan Lloyd, Keiron Assiratti, Archie Griffin, Henry Thomas, Adam Beard, Ben Carter, Will Rowlands, Freddie Thomas, Christ Tshiunza, James Botham, Jac Morgan, Taine Plumtree, Tommy Reffell, Aaron Wainwright.

Backs: Ellis Bevan, Tomos Williams, Rhodri Williams, Gareth Anscombe, Sam Costelow, Ben Thomas, Eddie James, Max Llewellyn, Nick Tompkins, Owen Watkin, Mason Grady, Rio Dyer, Josh Hathaway, Blair Murray, Tom Rogers, Cameron Winnett.


Faletau and Adams both injured, ditto Daffyd Jenkins


Major talking points:

Costelow but no Lloyd. Will the latter a mistake vs England cost him an entire career?
Nicky Smith returns which is overdue IMO
No Basham but perhaps not a surprise
Rhodes Williams returns
Nick Tompkins and Owen Watkin retained despite last season not being their greatest

I think we will be up against it again. Hopefully we can pick off a win against Australia or Fiji given our squad is stronnger than that which went on tour.

Quite possible that we will lose all 4 and will be on the market for a new coach.

[Puja]

Max Llewellyn's been in belting form for Gloucester - he'd be a great option for you at 13. Freddie Thomas is an interesting one. Was saying on the EMB that he feels kinda like Will Rowlands - nowhere near England recognition despite being a really solid Prem player, but feels like if he's given the confidence of an international coach, he could step up and be a very useful player at the higher level.

Puja

[Graigwen]

Rhodri Williams has been playing well, solid rather than brilliant.

It is certainly a good thing to see Nicky Smith back.

Last chance saloon maybe for Tompkins. He has looked like he was on the way out before then forged that good relationship with North. I have always found him a difficult player to evaluate. When he misses tackles or is caught out of position it looks very bad, but there is another side to the coin.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Good to see Nicky Smith in there. The forwards are a pretty decent selection given availability.

Good as he can be, I wouldn't select Anscombe. He won't make the next world cup. He may not even make the next match given how fragile he is.

No Ioan Lloyd. Gatland is allergic to talent. Even if Gatland is unaware of how well he's been playing at 10 (directly compared with Costelow too), Lloyd should be selected on flexibility alone.

Why does he keep selecting Watkin?

Murray's an interesting choice. Gatland can't resist another Kiwi.

He should have picked Nagy (cap him for God's sake).

I'm not convinced by Hathaway yet. He was poor for Gloucester on Sunday.

[Wallpaperman]

Max Llewellyn's been in belting form for Gloucester - he'd be a great option for you at 13. Freddie Thomas is an interesting one. Was saying on the EMB that he feels kinda like Will Rowlands - nowhere near England recognition despite being a really solid Prem player, but feels like if he's given the confidence of an international coach, he could step up and be a very useful player at the higher level.

Puja

Hi Puja

Saw an interview with Eddie Jones a few years ago where he said that he approached Rowlands re playing for England before Wales had capped him, and Rowlands replied that he wanted to play for Wales.

Agree re Thomas, definitely has something different about him. Not sure whether Gatland will try him in the back row but I think he will definitely cap him this Autumn to tie him to Wales.

[Wallpaperman]

Agree with most of the comments above:

Good to see Nicky Smith back, especially as Gareth Thomas has been first choice without ever playing particularly well.

Very reassuring to see Rowlands back, also Beard no surprise. Tomos Williams and Anscombe have been playing well and will probably be the starting half backs.

Henry Thomas to start with Griffin off the bench would be very decent on the tight head if they are both fit. Obviously Griffin doesn’t get much game time at Bath, but he did really well in the Summer. I expected to see Leon Brown in the squad, he has always been picked in the past even when not very fit.

The 2 new call ups look interesting, no great shock that he has picked someone who has come through the system in New Zealand. (Plumtree and Anscombe).

Good luck to Rhodri, a player I have always liked. I think he is only there because Gareth Davies retired though, Reuben Morgan- Williams is unlucky.

Thought Ioan Lloyd would be nailed on, hopefully he can continue to play so well, then Gatland will have to pick him for the six nations squad. Even if he doesn’t start him he could be a match winner from the bench. Likewise with Johnny Willliams. He disappointed at the World Cup but is going really well in tandem with Eddie James, but seems to be behind Tompkins and Watkin in Gatland’s pecking order.

Can’t see why Botham has got the nod over both Basham and Lewis-Hughes, maybe the Benetton game has cost one of them a place. Likewise Coghlan might have earned a call up ahead of Evan Lloyd, who never plays.

Agree that Nagy should have been called up, would have thought he was a very Gatland type player. Not sure if he has a problem with the Ospreys.

Having said all that, there is a decent 23 to be picked out of that squad, and a few to come back in post injury, including Dafydd Jenkins, Josh Adams and Faletau.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Agree with most of the comments above:

Good to see Nicky Smith back, especially as Gareth Thomas has been first choice without ever playing particularly well.

Very reassuring to see Rowlands back, also Beard no surprise. Tomos Williams and Anscombe have been playing well and will probably be the starting half backs.

Henry Thomas to start with Griffin off the bench would be very decent on the tight head if they are both fit. Obviously Griffin doesn’t get much game time at Bath, but he did really well in the Summer. I expected to see Leon Brown in the squad, he has always been picked in the past even when not very fit.

The 2 new call ups look interesting, no great shock that he has picked someone who has come through the system in New Zealand. (Plumtree and Anscombe).

Good luck to Rhodri, a player I have always liked. I think he is only there because Gareth Davies retired though, Reuben Morgan- Williams is unlucky.

Thought Ioan Lloyd would be nailed on, hopefully he can continue to play so well, then Gatland will have to pick him for the six nations squad. Even if he doesn’t start him he could be a match winner from the bench. Likewise with Johnny Willliams. He disappointed at the World Cup but is going really well in tandem with Eddie James, but seems to be behind Tompkins and Watkin in Gatland’s pecking order.

Can’t see why Botham has got the nod over both Basham and Lewis-Hughes, maybe the Benetton game has cost one of them a place. Likewise Coghlan might have earned a call up ahead of Evan Lloyd, who never plays.

Agree that Nagy should have been called up, would have thought he was a very Gatland type player. Not sure if he has a problem with the Ospreys.

Having said all that, there is a decent 23 to be picked out of that squad, and a few to come back in post injury, including Dafydd Jenkins, Josh Adams and Faletau.

Interesting point. The instant Nicky Smith stopped being an Osprey, he became visible to Gatland. Maybe Giles and Keiran Williams need a transfer.

Obviously this rule fails for Watkin. Nothing can really explain that one.

[normanski]

I hope to goodness playing Fiji first up doesn’t leave us with a long injury list.

It’s good to have some of our more experienced players back especially in the forwards.

[Sandydragon]

Max Llewellyn's been in belting form for Gloucester - he'd be a great option for you at 13. Freddie Thomas is an interesting one. Was saying on the EMB that he feels kinda like Will Rowlands - nowhere near England recognition despite being a really solid Prem player, but feels like if he's given the confidence of an international coach, he could step up and be a very useful player at the higher level.

Puja

Where would you see him at international level? Seems a tiny bit small for an out-and-out lock - blindside/lock hybrid?

[Sandydragon]

Agree with most of the comments above:

Good to see Nicky Smith back, especially as Gareth Thomas has been first choice without ever playing particularly well.

Very reassuring to see Rowlands back, also Beard no surprise. Tomos Williams and Anscombe have been playing well and will probably be the starting half backs.

Henry Thomas to start with Griffin off the bench would be very decent on the tight head if they are both fit. Obviously Griffin doesn’t get much game time at Bath, but he did really well in the Summer. I expected to see Leon Brown in the squad, he has always been picked in the past even when not very fit.

The 2 new call ups look interesting, no great shock that he has picked someone who has come through the system in New Zealand. (Plumtree and Anscombe).

Good luck to Rhodri, a player I have always liked. I think he is only there because Gareth Davies retired though, Reuben Morgan- Williams is unlucky.

Thought Ioan Lloyd would be nailed on, hopefully he can continue to play so well, then Gatland will have to pick him for the six nations squad. Even if he doesn’t start him he could be a match winner from the bench. Likewise with Johnny Willliams. He disappointed at the World Cup but is going really well in tandem with Eddie James, but seems to be behind Tompkins and Watkin in Gatland’s pecking order.

Can’t see why Botham has got the nod over both Basham and Lewis-Hughes, maybe the Benetton game has cost one of them a place. Likewise Coghlan might have earned a call up ahead of Evan Lloyd, who never plays.

Agree that Nagy should have been called up, would have thought he was a very Gatland type player. Not sure if he has a problem with the Ospreys.

Having said all that, there is a decent 23 to be picked out of that squad, and a few to come back in post injury, including Dafydd Jenkins, Josh Adams and Faletau.

Interesting point. The instant Nicky Smith stopped being an Osprey, he became visible to Gatland. Maybe Giles and Keiran Williams need a transfer.

Obviously this rule fails for Watkin. Nothing can really explain that one.

Watkin has had plenty of opportunities and he's never terrible but never really international class. Solid defensively which might explain Gatlands enduring interest. Eddie James and Llewelyn would be an interesting pairing I think, or roll the dice a bit (wont happen) and Move Thomas to 12, Llewelyn at 13 and leave Grady on the wing where he looks most comfortable.

9. Williams
10. Erm...
11. Dyer
12. Thomas
13. Llewelyn
14. Grady
15. Winnett probably

That could cause a lot of problems if they can get the ball.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Just noticed Gatland has overlooked Sheedy too. Not what I'd do. He's experienced but will make the next world cup.

[Puja]

Max Llewellyn's been in belting form for Gloucester - he'd be a great option for you at 13. Freddie Thomas is an interesting one. Was saying on the EMB that he feels kinda like Will Rowlands - nowhere near England recognition despite being a really solid Prem player, but feels like if he's given the confidence of an international coach, he could step up and be a very useful player at the higher level.

Puja

Where would you see him at international level? Seems a tiny bit small for an out-and-out lock - blindside/lock hybrid?

I had generally regarded him as a pure lock, becasue that's where he's looked best for Glaws and has never looked particularly short or underpowered, but I've just looked up his vital statistics and you're not wrong - 6ft 4 and 16st 10 is big for an average guy, but small in both respects for an international lock. I'm surprised, because he doesn't look as though he's nearly 2 stone lighter than Itoje from a casual eyeball.

He'd be ideal if you were looking to play a very fast-paced game as he's terrific in the loose, and he does seem to punch above his weight as I said, but it may be that Gatland sees him as a 6 for Wales.

Puja

[Sandydragon]

Just noticed Gatland has overlooked Sheedy too. Not what I'd do. He's experienced but will make the next world cup.

Good point and I’m surprised as well. He hasn’t set the world alight but Anscombe ability to remain fit must be a concern and he’s only a stop gap now.

[Graigwen]

I think Watkins is there because Gatland sees him (possibly wrongly?) as an island of defensive stability while he plays around with 10 and 13.

I think good centres will "emerge" eventually from what now looks like a better pool of talent, but I haven't a clue who they will be.

10 looks even more fluid than before. I can understand Anscombe being in the squad, even assuming he is not going to be doing place kicking soon. He offers a good strategic view and control. It would be prudent to assume he will not be fit for place kicking so that does add another complexity to selection of the rest of the team. Both Sheedy and Costello look to have the ability to cement their place in the team but have shown lack of consistency in the past. Ioan Lloyd is unlucky not to be in this squad, he is still learning and will be in a future squad. It is a luxury to have Ben Thomas and his multi-faceted ability in the squad, but I don't see him as a full time 10.

From what little I have seen, Blair Murray looks very sharp. Even Mason Grady is starting to change potential into performance.

We will be a much better team with Rowlands back, the depth at second row is looking good.

I think it is too early to start discarding players mere because they may not make the next World Cup. We need a team that can play decent rugby in the next six months. It should be possible to do that while developing young players.

.

[Puja]

I think it is too early to start discarding players mere because they may not make the next World Cup. We need a team that can play decent rugby in the next six months. It should be possible to do that while developing young players.

Plus, for all that Gatland says publically that he's going to be selecting teams based on what's best for Wales's long-term future, rather than his own survival, if you lose all three AIs to go 12 in a row, then he'll be given the Spanish Archer and the whole rebuild will have to begin again from scratch. There is something to be said for winning today, rather than putting everything into the basket of a future that may not happen.

Puja

[Son of Mathonwy]

I think it is too early to start discarding players mere because they may not make the next World Cup. We need a team that can play decent rugby in the next six months. It should be possible to do that while developing young players.

Plus, for all that Gatland says publically that he's going to be selecting teams based on what's best for Wales's long-term future, rather than his own survival, if you lose all three AIs to go 12 in a row, then he'll be given the Spanish Archer and the whole rebuild will have to begin again from scratch. There is something to be said for winning today, rather than putting everything into the basket of a future that may not happen.

Puja

That's what he says but picking Anscombe shows he's not being entirely honest.

Broadly speaking one shouldn't pick players who won't make the next world cup but that rule can be suspended when there's a particular weakness that only a veteran can fix in the short-term. However, given that Sheedy's available, there's not much excuse for recalling a patched-up Anscombe. It does show Garland's Kiwi bias though.

Personally I think Gatland would survive another three losses. Perhaps not another 6N whitewash on top though. Even the WRU might fall out of love with him under those circumstances.

[Puja]

I think it is too early to start discarding players mere because they may not make the next World Cup. We need a team that can play decent rugby in the next six months. It should be possible to do that while developing young players.

Plus, for all that Gatland says publically that he's going to be selecting teams based on what's best for Wales's long-term future, rather than his own survival, if you lose all three AIs to go 12 in a row, then he'll be given the Spanish Archer and the whole rebuild will have to begin again from scratch. There is something to be said for winning today, rather than putting everything into the basket of a future that may not happen.

Puja

That's what he says but picking Anscombe shows he's not being entirely honest.

Broadly speaking one shouldn't pick players who won't make the next world cup but that rule can be suspended when there's a particular weakness that only a veteran can fix in the short-term. However, given that Sheedy's available, there's not much excuse for recalling a patched-up Anscombe. It does show Garland's Kiwi bias though.

Personally I think Gatland would survive another three losses. Perhaps not another 6N whitewash on top though. Even the WRU might fall out of love with him under those circumstances.

If you were facing sides of the calibre of NZ/SA/France in all three games, then potentially, but I don't see the WRU coping very well if you lose to both Fiji and Australia - that's the kind of thing that depresses crowds and starts to get the accountants tetchy.

On the subject of Anscombe, do you really see Sheedy as a good option worth throwing over the youngsters for? I haven't seen much of him since leaving Bristol, but my impression of him was always very much a solid player without being great. Sometimes there's a call for that, but would he really add much more to a struggling team than sticking with the youngsters? Anscombe has the virtue of having had genuine star quality, even if his best days are behind him and he's trading on experience more than leg speed nowadays.

Puja

[Sandydragon]

I admit that I was hoping that Sheedy would be a good stop gap for us. Never a true international great but at least a steady player who would give Costelow et al chance to develop without all the pressure. But he’s not been consistent for Cardiff thus far. I’d suggest he isn’t the best 10 in that squad, never mind Wales.

Anscombe has been very good for Gloucester and his partnership with Williams could be the spark Wales needs. I am worried that he will get injured early and he definitely won’t make the next RWC, but do we develop the rest of the team with a flaky 10? Maybe if we can improve with Anscombe this season and bring Costelow on as a sub (where his best performances have been for Wales) then maybe our other less experienced players will develop in a squad that might actually win a game or 2. Continually losing isn’t good for anyone.

Dunno. Bottom line though, Anscombe isn’t keeping out a really shit hot young Jiffy type player who needs game time.

[pompey-zebra]

I admit that I was hoping that Sheedy would be a good stop gap for us. Never a true international great but at least a steady player who would give Costelow et al chance to develop without all the pressure. But he’s not been consistent for Cardiff thus far. I’d suggest he isn’t the best 10 in that squad, never mind Wales.

Anscombe has been very good for Gloucester and his partnership with Williams could be the spark Wales needs. I am worried that he will get injured early and he definitely won’t make the next RWC, but do we develop the rest of the team with a flaky 10? Maybe if we can improve with Anscombe this season and bring Costelow on as a sub (where his best performances have been for Wales) then maybe our other less experienced players will develop in a squad that might actually win a game or 2. Continually losing isn’t good for anyone.

Dunno. Bottom line though, Anscombe isn’t keeping out a really shit hot young Jiffy type player who needs game time.

Gatland's always liked Anscombe, and he would no doubt had many more caps had he not been.injured so often. So to have him fit ( head injury excepted), in form and in partnership with the likely starting 9, it would have been a surprise if Gatland didnt select him. I do wonder too if Anscombe is picked as cover for 15 as i think Winnett is the only full back selected and I'm not sure who else in the squad covers 15. Gatland could of course have picked Ioan lloyd as 10/15 cover but Gatland said before he's reluctant to pick two smallish 10's and costellow is the one who seems to be the favourite.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Plus, for all that Gatland says publically that he's going to be selecting teams based on what's best for Wales's long-term future, rather than his own survival, if you lose all three AIs to go 12 in a row, then he'll be given the Spanish Archer and the whole rebuild will have to begin again from scratch. There is something to be said for winning today, rather than putting everything into the basket of a future that may not happen.

Puja

That's what he says but picking Anscombe shows he's not being entirely honest.

Broadly speaking one shouldn't pick players who won't make the next world cup but that rule can be suspended when there's a particular weakness that only a veteran can fix in the short-term. However, given that Sheedy's available, there's not much excuse for recalling a patched-up Anscombe. It does show Garland's Kiwi bias though.

Personally I think Gatland would survive another three losses. Perhaps not another 6N whitewash on top though. Even the WRU might fall out of love with him under those circumstances.

If you were facing sides of the calibre of NZ/SA/France in all three games, then potentially, but I don't see the WRU coping very well if you lose to both Fiji and Australia - that's the kind of thing that depresses crowds and starts to get the accountants tetchy.

On the subject of Anscombe, do you really see Sheedy as a good option worth throwing over the youngsters for? I haven't seen much of him since leaving Bristol, but my impression of him was always very much a solid player without being great. Sometimes there's a call for that, but would he really add much more to a struggling team than sticking with the youngsters? Anscombe has the virtue of having had genuine star quality, even if his best days are behind him and he's trading on experience more than leg speed nowadays.

Puja

No, I was putting Sheedy up as the experienced, yet young enough to reach the next world cup option, in contrast to Anscombe. I'd play Lloyd at 10. Sheedy would be my second choice.

Which is why I find Garland's squad a bit frustrating. But I'm used to that.

[Sandydragon]

I wonder if Lloyd needs t9 move to another club and be the main flyhalf. Not sure him and Costelow together at the scarlets is going to work.

[pompey-zebra]

I wonder if Lloyd needs t9 move to another club and be the main flyhalf. Not sure him and Costelow together at the scarlets is going to work.

Maybe he should move to Leicester. It worked for Nicky Smith!

[Son of Mathonwy]

I wonder if Lloyd needs t9 move to another club and be the main flyhalf. Not sure him and Costelow together at the scarlets is going to work.

Maybe he should move to Leicester. It worked for Nicky Smith!

Personnel-wise only the Dragons would give him a good shot at being first choice 10, but Newport has been the graveyard of many a player who hoped for a new dawn. Still, it only took Rhodri Williams 6 years there to get noticed, it can be done!!

Costelow being at the Scarlets is bad news for Lloyd but clearly Peel is aware of him and willing to start him at 10 over Costelow at times. And being out of the Welsh squad this autumn will give him more fly half time.

[Sandydragon]

I wonder if Lloyd needs t9 move to another club and be the main flyhalf. Not sure him and Costelow together at the scarlets is going to work.

Maybe he should move to Leicester. It worked for Nicky Smith!

Personnel-wise only the Dragons would give him a good shot at being first choice 10, but Newport has been the graveyard of many a player who hoped for a new dawn. Still, it only took Rhodri Williams 6 years there to get noticed, it can be done!!

Costelow being at the Scarlets is bad news for Lloyd but clearly Peel is aware of him and willing to start him at 10 over Costelow at times. And being out of the Welsh squad this autumn will give him more fly half time.

SLH will hopefully be the counter to your curse there

[Son of Mathonwy]

Maybe he should move to Leicester. It worked for Nicky Smith!

Personnel-wise only the Dragons would give him a good shot at being first choice 10, but Newport has been the graveyard of many a player who hoped for a new dawn. Still, it only took Rhodri Williams 6 years there to get noticed, it can be done!!

Costelow being at the Scarlets is bad news for Lloyd but clearly Peel is aware of him and willing to start him at 10 over Costelow at times. And being out of the Welsh squad this autumn will give him more fly half time.

SLH will hopefully be the counter to your curse there

He could be the Lydiate to prove me wrong. But I still feel Sam Davies's pain.