America

[Mellsblue]

Absolutely loving all the non American men explaining to the American woman how and why she's wrong about American society and politics, then throwing in a few insults for good measure. This is what everyone loves about the Left.

Cashead is not the rest of us. And Coco has yet to react to Morepork, the only one with actual, real world experience in the "situations" she describes.

It’s anecdotal, not that I don’t believe MP, or Coco for that matter, in fact I have a lot of time for both of their opinions; however, as you say, ‘the USA is basically a load of smaller countries put together’ so what MP sees in Philly isn’t necessarily what happens in the rest of the country or indeed in the primary school down the road. Ditto Coco latching onto a handful of stories in a country of over 300mil though the idea that she has no ‘actual, real world experience’ is pretty laughable given here we are in Europe on a rugby chat board telling her what to think.
Not sure why I’m replying as this argument is sooo boring and miles from the really, really important stuff that will happen in the next four years, other than both things can be true, ie there will be institutions with their sole focus on academic rigour as there will be institutions with ideas on teaching on cultural issues. Both can be true at the same time and as much as we can have a go at people’s sources you can also look more critically at your own sources… In fact, from what I’ve read on the subject, just being told your sources aren’t believable and you’re thick for believing them (whilst simultaneously ignoring that your media of choice is probably almost as/just as/more skewed) makes someone less likely to change their mind.
My final thought, as alluded to previously, is I’ve no idea why Coco or MP give a flying f**k what people in a foreign country with no first hand experience of their world think about their political decisions.

[Stom]

Absolutely loving all the non American men explaining to the American woman how and why she's wrong about American society and politics, then throwing in a few insults for good measure. This is what everyone loves about the Left.

Cashead is not the rest of us. And Coco has yet to react to Morepork, the only one with actual, real world experience in the "situations" she describes.

It’s anecdotal, not that I don’t believe MP, or Coco for that matter, in fact I have a lot of time for both of their opinions; however, as you say, ‘the USA is basically a load of smaller countries put together’ so what MP sees in Philly isn’t necessarily what happens in the rest of the country or indeed in the primary school down the road. Ditto Coco latching onto a handful of stories in a country of over 300mil though the idea that she has no ‘actual, real world experience’ is pretty laughable given here we are in Europe on a rugby chat board telling her what to think.
Not sure why I’m replying as this argument is sooo boring and miles from the really, really important stuff that will happen in the next four years, other than both things can be true, ie there will be institutions with their sole focus on academic rigour as there will be institutions with ideas on teaching on cultural issues. Both can be true at the same time and as much as we can have a go at people’s sources you can also look more critically at your own sources… In fact, from what I’ve read on the subject, just being told your sources aren’t believable and you’re thick for believing them (whilst simultaneously ignoring that your media of choice is probably almost as/just as/more skewed) makes someone less likely to change their mind.
My final thought, as alluded to previously, is I’ve no idea why Coco or MP give a flying f**k what people in a foreign country with no first hand experience of their world think about their political decisions.

You're right, I was not clear enough. I meant the only other poster with experience.

And I agree with your sentiment. Completely. With so long spent here in Hungary, being able to take multiple sources for each piece of news has become vital, because they're just awful. There are about 4 English language news portals, and they're owned by either pro-government or anti-government organizations, not independent. And the Hungarian language media is mainly pro-government, and rarely independent. Which makes piecing together the "truth" difficult.

Especially when the reports are most likely (technically) true. (The ones Coco quotes).

[Son of Mathonwy]

Have you thought about checking the veracity of the information you've decided is fact? I know that this is something I like to do, and when I don't, I get shown up for it, and apologize.

Serious point - let's all try to live up to this.

Truth-check your own views.

[Banquo]

Have you thought about checking the veracity of the information you've decided is fact? I know that this is something I like to do, and when I don't, I get shown up for it, and apologize.

Serious point - let's all try to live up to this.

Truth-check your own views.

....and so say all of us...

[Mellsblue]

‘We now have a choice: rage at Trump supporters – or curiosity. We can spend the coming months in fruitless intellectual contortions about whether he meets the criteria for being a fascist, or we can properly understand what has just happened’


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... um=twitter

[Son of Mathonwy]

I wouldn't claim to know shit about American society or politics, but I saw this and wondered if it's possibly as accurate as anything else....

I always find it amazing that the left is attacked for incivility. Yes, there are absolutely obnoxious people on every fringe who drive people away, but it's not the left who use the epithet of "pedos" to describe marginalised groups and those who advocate for them - that's a mainstream right thing, endorsed and promoted by mainstream right leaders. Nor was it the "left" leader or "left" spokespeople who made constant streams of personal attacks about "DEI hire", "Slept her way to the top", "low IQ", etc.

The key bit of that diatribe is "They voted for the right to keep YOU out of decisions for their children." What decisions do they want to make that they feel the intolerant left would stop them from?

Puja

Donny's quoted text is accurate. The majority are fed up.

Frankly, most parents want their children to go to school to learn HOW to think (for themselves), instead of WHAT to think. They want their childten to be able to express their own thoughts and opinions... and to actually be allowed to have those thoughts/opinions/questions without being punished, shunned, or told they are wrong. They would like the opportunity to choose the public school their child goes to, whether it is in their district or not. They would like their children to spend their time in school learning English, Math, and the basics rather than have pronoun confusion, affirmation of their childs dysphoria without parental notification or against the parents wishes, or teachers discussing their sexual orientation with 7 year olds. Parents want to have those conversations with their children when THEY see fit to do it, not any sooner, and to be able to deal with certain issues in a way they feel is best for their child. They would like for teachers and administrators to mind their own business when their son has an American flag sticker on his backpack instead of telling him its triggering for some students so he needs to take it off. They are fed up with activist teachers and their agendas.

Thats just some of the info Ive gathered from what Ive read/heard. This is a big reason why homeschooling and charter schools are so popular now.

Out of interest . . .

What is your understanding of climate change? What (if anything) did you think of the presidential candidates' policies in that area?

Do you think the 2020 election was won by the Democrats through illegal methods? Do you think Trump pressured Republican election officials tin swing states to get him the votes he needed? What do you think happened on January 6th 2021 at the Capitol? Did any of these things affect your vote?

[Mellsblue]

Despite being a Lib Dem this bloke tends to be right on foreign policy issues.

https://cepa.org/article/trump-cards-a-survival-kit/

[Stom]

‘We now have a choice: rage at Trump supporters – or curiosity. We can spend the coming months in fruitless intellectual contortions about whether he meets the criteria for being a fascist, or we can properly understand what has just happened’


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... um=twitter

And while I may not agree completely with his takeaways…

100% onboard with the sentiment.

[Sandydragon]

‘We now have a choice: rage at Trump supporters – or curiosity. We can spend the coming months in fruitless intellectual contortions about whether he meets the criteria for being a fascist, or we can properly understand what has just happened’


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... um=twitter

And while I may not agree completely with his takeaways…

100% onboard with the sentiment.

Completely agree. The debate for how much of an authoritarian Trump may be is one for historians. The most urgent discussion must be on why the republicans won. It seems that this was as much if not more of a rejection of the past four years than it was a vote for Trump. You could argue that the republicans would have won more handsomely without Trump and his own personal baggage.

The dems lost a large swath of their traditional voters and need to think hard on who they represent. That doesn’t mean going full on socialist to a country that won’t want that. But many working class areas were very persuaded by the thought of a protectionist economy. The dems must find a way to improve employment and make people feel better off or this won’t be a single term Republican administration, but rather Trump handing over a baton to another Republican president.

[Mikey Brown]

Yeah it’s a shame how the blanket accusations of stupidity/fascism from all Trump voters seems to be so much of the focus in the backlash, when largely it seems to be people dismissing the culture war/personality drama in favour of “the economy”.

That’s not to say the attacks against Trump as a person aren’t valid, he is an absolute cunt, but a lot of people just don’t think that matters in comparison to the cost of day to day living.

The fact he’s managed to convince people he knows what he’s doing in terms of the economy is another matter though. I mean he still doesn’t seem to even understand what tariffs are or how they will really affect most people. So much of that discussion seems to completely ignore Covid and global inflation during sleepy Joe’s reign.

It’s hard to think of anybody that better embodies the spirit of outsourcing cheap, Chinese crap and sticking a US flag on it. That’s his entire ethos and identity. Did he make any headway at all on bringing manufacturing back to the US in his previous term?

I was listening to a conversation about the prospect of China getting hold of Taiwanese chip manufacturing, supplying virtually every big tech company in the world, and it doesn’t seem he has any grasp of that situation at all. He thinks ‘tariffs’ will hold them off.

I can’t really comment on the wokification of the school system - I like the concept of children being taught how to think rather than what, but I don’t know how that aligns with them not even learning of the existence of LGBTQ people. I’m sure there have been some instances of people overstepping, it depends which anecdotal evidence you take to heart or not, I guess.

For instance there have been a lot of responses to the suggestion of mass voluntary celibacy from women opposing Trump with the attitude of “as if you have a choice.” Is that meaningless social media drama or a pretty sickening indication of how a lot of men feel?

This is obviously not limited to the US at all, but there seems to be this complete inability for people to discern between an opinion/policy being bad and the person sharing that opinion just being a preachy, sanctimonious dickhead.

[Sandydragon]

With someone like Trump it’s easy to focus on his outsized and twatish personality, and ignore any policies. I think the presidential personality often over shines the party loyalty and policies. The Republicans won across the board so it does feel like it was a vote against democrats rather than people voting for Trump.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Yeah it’s a shame how the blanket accusations of stupidity/fascism from all Trump voters seems to be so much of the focus in the backlash, when largely it seems to be people dismissing the culture war/personality drama in favour of “the economy”.

That’s not to say the attacks against Trump as a person aren’t valid, he is an absolute cunt, but a lot of people just don’t think that matters in comparison to the cost of day to day living.

The fact he’s managed to convince people he knows what he’s doing in terms of the economy is another matter though. I mean he still doesn’t seem to even understand what tariffs are or how they will really affect most people. So much of that discussion seems to completely ignore Covid and global inflation during sleepy Joe’s reign.

It’s hard to think of anybody that better embodies the spirit of outsourcing cheap, Chinese crap and sticking a US flag on it. That’s his entire ethos and identity. Did he make any headway at all on bringing manufacturing back to the US in his previous term?

I was listening to a conversation about the prospect of China getting hold of Taiwanese chip manufacturing, supplying virtually every big tech company in the world, and it doesn’t seem he has any grasp of that situation at all. He thinks ‘tariffs’ will hold them off.

I can’t really comment on the wokification of the school system - I like the concept of children being taught how to think rather than what, but I don’t know how that aligns with them not even learning of the existence of LGBTQ people. I’m sure there have been some instances of people overstepping, it depends which anecdotal evidence you take to heart or not, I guess.

For instance there have been a lot of responses to the suggestion of mass voluntary celibacy from women opposing Trump with the attitude of “as if you have a choice.” Is that meaningless social media drama or a pretty sickening indication of how a lot of men feel?

This is obviously not limited to the US at all, but there seems to be this complete inability for people to discern between an opinion/policy being bad and the person sharing that opinion just being a preachy, sanctimonious dickhead.

Unfortunately for the Democrats, that is how they come across about 90% of the time. To be fair to him, Walz didn't.

[Sandydragon]

The dems aren’t talking the language of many of their traditional supporters. Trump has now nicked them.

They aren’t addressing the needs of those communities. Labour has much the same problem.

[Son of Mathonwy]

The dems aren’t talking the language of many of their traditional supporters. Trump has now nicked them.

They aren’t addressing the needs of those communities. Labour has much the same problem.

Yep, the Dems and Labour could get away with it with traditional Republicans or Tories, but with Trump and Farage and their post-truth, easy solution, anti-immigrant lines, they need to change their approach. But will they? Labour have a better chance* - some of them actually are working class(!) - but the Democrats look totally clueless. I can't see their sponsors allowing anyone vaguely left-wing to rise to the top.

* having said that, under Starmer, I think Labour will not rise to this particular challenge and will be wrong-footed by Farage for the next 5 years. Starmer is banking on Farage and the Tories to still be at each others' throats at the next election - I don't think he has a plan B.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

The dems aren’t talking the language of many of their traditional supporters. Trump has now nicked them.

They aren’t addressing the needs of those communities. Labour has much the same problem.

What needs are they that you don't think they are addressing?

Health? Maybe it would be useful if someone negotiated a decrease in prescription costs and got 10s of millions of them healthcare.
Jobs? Maybe it would be useful if they got job growth every month of the presidency and had full employment with real wages growing more than inflation. Maybe it would be useful if they realised that people without college degrees were being needlessly kept out of jobs and had some sort of plan to make sure that the Federal government didn't do so. Maybe it would be useful if they invested a fucking fortune in manufacturing in the US and brought an entire industry to the country that has never been there in any size before?

Is that the sort of thing you're after?

Honestly I wish people would pay attention. There's a world of difference between not indulging their supposed grievances and prejudices and not doing anything for them. What exactly did Trump offer them? What exactly have the republicans ever offered them?

[Puja]

The dems aren’t talking the language of many of their traditional supporters. Trump has now nicked them.

They aren’t addressing the needs of those communities. Labour has much the same problem.

What needs are they that you don't think they are addressing?

Health? Maybe it would be useful if someone negotiated a decrease in prescription costs and got 10s of millions of them healthcare.
Jobs? Maybe it would be useful if they got job growth every month of the presidency and had full employment with real wages growing more than inflation. Maybe it would be useful if they realised that people without college degrees were being needlessly kept out of jobs and had some sort of plan to make sure that the Federal government didn't do so. Maybe it would be useful if they invested a fucking fortune in manufacturing in the US and brought an entire industry to the country that has never been there in any size before?

Is that the sort of thing you're after?

Honestly I wish people would pay attention. There's a world of difference between not indulging their supposed grievances and prejudices and not doing anything for them. What exactly did Trump offer them? What exactly have the republicans ever offered them?

And did they focus on that in the election, or did they have celebrity-endorsements and attacking his character?

Puja

[Sandydragon]

The dems aren’t talking the language of many of their traditional supporters. Trump has now nicked them.

They aren’t addressing the needs of those communities. Labour has much the same problem.

What needs are they that you don't think they are addressing?

Health? Maybe it would be useful if someone negotiated a decrease in prescription costs and got 10s of millions of them healthcare.
Jobs? Maybe it would be useful if they got job growth every month of the presidency and had full employment with real wages growing more than inflation. Maybe it would be useful if they realised that people without college degrees were being needlessly kept out of jobs and had some sort of plan to make sure that the Federal government didn't do so. Maybe it would be useful if they invested a fucking fortune in manufacturing in the US and brought an entire industry to the country that has never been there in any size before?

Is that the sort of thing you're after?

Honestly I wish people would pay attention. There's a world of difference between not indulging their supposed grievances and prejudices and not doing anything for them. What exactly did Trump offer them? What exactly have the republicans ever offered them?

‘Do you feel better off after four years of Biden?’

The answer was apparently no. The more evidence comes in the more it was perceived that Biden had been a failure and the Dems needed to be ousted.

The economy was seen to be weaker than it was under Trump, facts and figures seems to be irrelevant, people ‘felt’ worse off. The withdrawal from Afghanistan and failure to put Israel in check and stop the Russian invasion were signs of American weakness.

[Sandydragon]

The dems aren’t talking the language of many of their traditional supporters. Trump has now nicked them.

They aren’t addressing the needs of those communities. Labour has much the same problem.

What needs are they that you don't think they are addressing?

Health? Maybe it would be useful if someone negotiated a decrease in prescription costs and got 10s of millions of them healthcare.
Jobs? Maybe it would be useful if they got job growth every month of the presidency and had full employment with real wages growing more than inflation. Maybe it would be useful if they realised that people without college degrees were being needlessly kept out of jobs and had some sort of plan to make sure that the Federal government didn't do so. Maybe it would be useful if they invested a fucking fortune in manufacturing in the US and brought an entire industry to the country that has never been there in any size before?

Is that the sort of thing you're after?

Honestly I wish people would pay attention. There's a world of difference between not indulging their supposed grievances and prejudices and not doing anything for them. What exactly did Trump offer them? What exactly have the republicans ever offered them?

And did they focus on that in the election, or did they have celebrity-endorsements and attacking his character?

Puja

And Harris was seen very much as continuity Biden. She seemed very policy light, mostly I think due to her late nomination and lack of primary process, but also she didn’t want to stab Joe in the back.

[Stom]

The dems aren’t talking the language of many of their traditional supporters. Trump has now nicked them.

They aren’t addressing the needs of those communities. Labour has much the same problem.

What needs are they that you don't think they are addressing?

Health? Maybe it would be useful if someone negotiated a decrease in prescription costs and got 10s of millions of them healthcare.
Jobs? Maybe it would be useful if they got job growth every month of the presidency and had full employment with real wages growing more than inflation. Maybe it would be useful if they realised that people without college degrees were being needlessly kept out of jobs and had some sort of plan to make sure that the Federal government didn't do so. Maybe it would be useful if they invested a fucking fortune in manufacturing in the US and brought an entire industry to the country that has never been there in any size before?

Is that the sort of thing you're after?

Honestly I wish people would pay attention. There's a world of difference between not indulging their supposed grievances and prejudices and not doing anything for them. What exactly did Trump offer them? What exactly have the republicans ever offered them?

‘Do you feel better off after four years of Biden?’

The answer was apparently no. The more evidence comes in the more it was perceived that Biden had been a failure and the Dems needed to be ousted.

The economy was seen to be weaker than it was under Trump, facts and figures seems to be irrelevant, people ‘felt’ worse off. The withdrawal from Afghanistan and failure to put Israel in check and stop the Russian invasion were signs of American weakness.

Well, I see the mistake. I feel Eugene only addressed one part of your original post:

"They aren't addressing the needs..."

When they absolutely did do so.

But your point of not using the language...that's another question.

The problem is and was that they let the narrative get away from them. They were not in control of their version of the truth or what they wanted Americans to feel when they looked at their policies or candidates.

How easy would it have been to come out and talk about how hard it has been since Covid. About how fractured our communities feel. About how "we feel like we did so much, but it wasn't enough, and we want to do more. We want to listen and do better." And then to actually address grievences.

Talk about how politics can feel distant from people. They had an absolutely ideal opportunity because Harris got Tim Walz as VP pick, and that guy is incredible. The perfect all-American dem.

But did they use that after the first flurry of press? No, they did not. They let the narrative be wrest away.

I do think they addressed the issues of many of the people (not tech bros, they're beyond saving). But they didn't get that message accross.

Actually on that point...tech bros is a big problem. BIG problem. Because these people really don't care about anyone but themselves. They're the final form of libertarians and they're scary because they have access to information sources unlike the libertarians from before, and they're just as easily led astray by real sounding fake news.

[Sandydragon]

Stom,

Not quoting you as the post was getting too long. But in response to your listening point, do you think the democrats are listening to those people who were once loyal supports but have just voted Republican?

The cost of living seems to have been as big an issue in the US as it was here. Did the dems make any noise about significantly raising the minimum wage for example?

As much as I detest the man, Trump seems to have engaged with the working poor far better and even if his policies are utter nonsense, they seem to be trying to fix problems they are experiencing around the economy.

[Mikey Brown]

This feels quite relevant.



A lot of the things people want are there, but they failed to reach people with it in a really impactful way.

[Stom]

Stom,

Not quoting you as the post was getting too long. But in response to your listening point, do you think the democrats are listening to those people who were once loyal supports but have just voted Republican?

The cost of living seems to have been as big an issue in the US as it was here. Did the dems make any noise about significantly raising the minimum wage for example?

As much as I detest the man, Trump seems to have engaged with the working poor far better and even if his policies are utter nonsense, they seem to be trying to fix problems they are experiencing around the economy.

Yes, I think their policies at large would have led to better circumstances for the majority.

But that's my point: they completely failed to articulate this, to tap into the prevailing noise, and to take control of the narrative.

There was zero distancing from the Biden administration.

There was no apologizing for the fact people feel worse off, even if they can quite reasonably point every single negative figure back to Trump's presidency.

This was a comms failure, not a policy failure.

[Puja]

This was a comms failure, not a policy failure.

Nail -> Head.

Kamala needed to have the minerals to absolutely shove Biden under the bus. Might not be noble, might not be moral, might not be friendly, but she could've blamed anything and everything on him and claimed credit for anything else. Being correct is trumped by sounding correct (no pun intended).

Puja

[Sandydragon]

Stom,

Not quoting you as the post was getting too long. But in response to your listening point, do you think the democrats are listening to those people who were once loyal supports but have just voted Republican?

The cost of living seems to have been as big an issue in the US as it was here. Did the dems make any noise about significantly raising the minimum wage for example?

As much as I detest the man, Trump seems to have engaged with the working poor far better and even if his policies are utter nonsense, they seem to be trying to fix problems they are experiencing around the economy.

Yes, I think their policies at large would have led to better circumstances for the majority.

But that's my point: they completely failed to articulate this, to tap into the prevailing noise, and to take control of the narrative.

There was zero distancing from the Biden administration.

There was no apologizing for the fact people feel worse off, even if they can quite reasonably point every single negative figure back to Trump's presidency.

This was a comms failure, not a policy failure.

I’d largely agree with that. Especially when someone like Trump is very good at being the insurgent and attacking the incumbents records with some brutal one liners. It’s hard to defend detail when there’s that much noise.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

The dems aren’t talking the language of many of their traditional supporters. Trump has now nicked them.

They aren’t addressing the needs of those communities. Labour has much the same problem.

What needs are they that you don't think they are addressing?

Health? Maybe it would be useful if someone negotiated a decrease in prescription costs and got 10s of millions of them healthcare.
Jobs? Maybe it would be useful if they got job growth every month of the presidency and had full employment with real wages growing more than inflation. Maybe it would be useful if they realised that people without college degrees were being needlessly kept out of jobs and had some sort of plan to make sure that the Federal government didn't do so. Maybe it would be useful if they invested a fucking fortune in manufacturing in the US and brought an entire industry to the country that has never been there in any size before?

Is that the sort of thing you're after?

Honestly I wish people would pay attention. There's a world of difference between not indulging their supposed grievances and prejudices and not doing anything for them. What exactly did Trump offer them? What exactly have the republicans ever offered them?

And did they focus on that in the election, or did they have celebrity-endorsements and attacking his character?

Puja

They spent a fuck ton of money on pushing ads to that effect. Funnily enough the billionaires in charge of the media weren't massively interested in the finer aspects of policy. Even the likes of cnn would report a fake controversy over a lack of policy without reporting that there was an 85 page economic policy and that the other guy was lying about tariffs.