England vs SA

[Timbo]

The caricature that seems to be being drawn of Slandered Badly on here is really something. I don't **want** to be defending him, cause we've lost a load of games and I'm highly frustrated, but some of this is over the top. "Would never do anything radical in selection", despite bringing in CCS and IFW to be regular players despite inexperience (and a fair few of the board saying they weren't ready and it was silly to chuck them in and expect miracles), and despite dropping Steward (who was considered inked in by most) to bring in the more attacking option of Furbank. No, I'm not happy with all of his selections by a long shot, but we're harping on like he's never taken a single risk nor brought in anyone of any excitement.

"Probably having few ideas of his own" is the highlight. I really don't want to be defending him right now, but you're making it hard not to with the hyperbole the other way.

Puja

Picking the odd player unexpectedly does not prove anything - especially if it was someone else's idea for all we know. I think it is reasonable to assess SB as 'limited'. He did a reasonable job at the RWC by backing his predecessor's team and keeping it simple. Since then, a few individual players have looked good but the team only has for the odd short spell apart from one good effort v Ireland.

Exciting picks do not show that he might make exciting picks, because I do not believe that he is exciting, so any exciting picks that may have happened were snuck in under his nose by persons unknown. Same goes for any attempts this season to play with quick ball, any tries scored by exciting backs play this season, any moving away from incessant box-kicking, picking a running 8 (even if not the one that we'd want). He is uninventive limited stodge, with barely a brain of his own, solely responsible for the bad bits and any good things have likely been somebody else's idea.

Frankly, I think he should be sacked - seems like he's been halfway deposed already with the amount of stuff that's gone on without his say-so.

Puja

Haha, excellent.

[Puja]

Picking the odd player unexpectedly does not prove anything - especially if it was someone else's idea for all we know. I think it is reasonable to assess SB as 'limited'. He did a reasonable job at the RWC by backing his predecessor's team and keeping it simple. Since then, a few individual players have looked good but the team only has for the odd short spell apart from one good effort v Ireland.

Exciting picks do not show that he might make exciting picks, because I do not believe that he is exciting, so any exciting picks that may have happened were snuck in under his nose by persons unknown. Same goes for any attempts this season to play with quick ball, any tries scored by exciting backs play this season, any moving away from incessant box-kicking, picking a running 8 (even if not the one that we'd want). He is uninventive limited stodge, with barely a brain of his own, solely responsible for the bad bits and any good things have likely been somebody else's idea.

Frankly, I think he should be sacked - seems like he's been halfway deposed already with the amount of stuff that's gone on without his say-so.

Puja

now now....you know what they say about sarcasm...

Ohhh, I'm soooooo interested in what they say about sarcasm. I bet it's really fascinating and wise and will cause me to never be overly sarcastic again.

Mind, it wouldn't be Rugby Rebels if there wasn't a thread of my calling people out for hyperbole while then immediately being hyperbolic myself straight after.

Puja

[Banquo]

Exciting picks do not show that he might make exciting picks, because I do not believe that he is exciting, so any exciting picks that may have happened were snuck in under his nose by persons unknown. Same goes for any attempts this season to play with quick ball, any tries scored by exciting backs play this season, any moving away from incessant box-kicking, picking a running 8 (even if not the one that we'd want). He is uninventive limited stodge, with barely a brain of his own, solely responsible for the bad bits and any good things have likely been somebody else's idea.

Frankly, I think he should be sacked - seems like he's been halfway deposed already with the amount of stuff that's gone on without his say-so.

Puja

now now....you know what they say about sarcasm...

Ohhh, I'm soooooo interested in what they say about sarcasm. I bet it's really fascinating and wise and will cause me to never be overly sarcastic again.

Mind, it wouldn't be Rugby Rebels if there wasn't a thread of my calling people out for hyperbole while then immediately being hyperbolic myself straight after.

Puja

[Oakboy]

Debate is healthy. Results are facts.

A sequence of defeat after defeat, more than anything else, is DISAPPOINTING.

Now, I am quaking in my boots dreading the thought of possibly losing to Japan.

Please tell me Borthwick is not THAT bad. We most certainly have at least 23 players who would beat Japan 99/100, don't we? Don't we?

[FKAS]

Debate is healthy. Results are facts.

A sequence of defeat after defeat, more than anything else, is DISAPPOINTING.

Now, I am quaking in my boots dreading the thought of possibly losing to Japan.

Please tell me Borthwick is not THAT bad. We most certainly have at least 23 players who would beat Japan 99/100, don't we? Don't we?

We did in the summer.

[Banquo]

Debate is healthy. Results are facts.

A sequence of defeat after defeat, more than anything else, is DISAPPOINTING.

Now, I am quaking in my boots dreading the thought of possibly losing to Japan.

Please tell me Borthwick is not THAT bad. We most certainly have at least 23 players who would beat Japan 99/100, don't we? Don't we?

We did in the summer.

Good point well made

[Puja]

Debate is healthy. Results are facts.

A sequence of defeat after defeat, more than anything else, is DISAPPOINTING.

Now, I am quaking in my boots dreading the thought of possibly losing to Japan.

Please tell me Borthwick is not THAT bad. We most certainly have at least 23 players who would beat Japan 99/100, don't we? Don't we?

We did in the summer.

Good point well made

That win may've been done by somebody else though, so we can't rely on Shouldbe Blamed to deliver this time.

{/s} I would be astounded were we to lose to Japan based on recent performances, even with recent results. However, I am more nervous than I would like to be - losing runs do get in players' heads. It would be an unforgiveable result though.

Puja

[Oakboy]

We did in the summer.

Good point well made

That win may've been done by somebody else though, so we can't rely on Shouldbe Blamed to deliver this time.

{/s} I would be astounded were we to lose to Japan based on recent performances, even with recent results. However, I am more nervous than I would like to be - losing runs do get in players' heads. It would be an unforgiveable result though.

Puja

We are ranked 7th (below Scotland but above Australia??). Japan are 13th. Per Planet Rugby, anyway.

[Banquo]

We did in the summer.

Good point well made

That win may've been done by somebody else though, so we can't rely on Shouldbe Blamed to deliver this time.

{/s} I would be astounded were we to lose to Japan based on recent performances, even with recent results. However, I am more nervous than I would like to be - losing runs do get in players' heads. It would be an unforgiveable result though.

Puja

That would be the time to Shoulderthe Blame.

[Oakboy]

Good point well made

That win may've been done by somebody else though, so we can't rely on Shouldbe Blamed to deliver this time.

{/s} I would be astounded were we to lose to Japan based on recent performances, even with recent results. However, I am more nervous than I would like to be - losing runs do get in players' heads. It would be an unforgiveable result though.

Puja

That would be the time to Shoulderthe Blame.

Or Step Back.

[FKAS]

That win may've been done by somebody else though, so we can't rely on Shouldbe Blamed to deliver this time.

{/s} I would be astounded were we to lose to Japan based on recent performances, even with recent results. However, I am more nervous than I would like to be - losing runs do get in players' heads. It would be an unforgiveable result though.

Puja

That would be the time to Shoulderthe Blame.

Or Step Back.

Speedily Bogoff

[Mikey Brown]

As usual there's some great analysis and some that sounds bit far fetched, but the conclusion is quite interesting given so much of the conversation on here.

[Skalyba]

yus. Jones - possibly not everyone's cup of tea - turned us from a sh8t show to GS winners in a month iirc.

That's undervaluing this Aussie squad. The building blocks have been there for years and they were improving nicely under Rennie. They just got shafted by Eddie who ripped their senior players out of the team and ruined their gun 10. Schmidt has given the team direction again and installed some self belief. It seems a lot of fans in the UK don't watch the rugby championship but this didn't come from no where - they had some losses but you could see them building (very similar to England tbh). They have quality (but no depth) in the front row, esp. the props, a very solid 2nd row, a back row that can and does compete with the best. Good 9's, great centres and a solid back 3 - it's not a couple of good players schmodt lifted from nowhere, only Sua'ali'i is new really

I stand corrected, but no question Schmidt has turned them around in a pretty short time, thus demonstrating the art of the possible. I may have undercalled slightly the quality of the squad but the point was about decent coaching not magicking up players - just that as you say it’s not an entire group of worldies

And I confess to not having watched the RC for a while.

Fair, and I don't mean to underplay what Schmidt has done. He's the ideal coach for them at the moment - give them structure and belief but let them play. Exactly what England need tbh

[Banquo]

That's undervaluing this Aussie squad. The building blocks have been there for years and they were improving nicely under Rennie. They just got shafted by Eddie who ripped their senior players out of the team and ruined their gun 10. Schmidt has given the team direction again and installed some self belief. It seems a lot of fans in the UK don't watch the rugby championship but this didn't come from no where - they had some losses but you could see them building (very similar to England tbh). They have quality (but no depth) in the front row, esp. the props, a very solid 2nd row, a back row that can and does compete with the best. Good 9's, great centres and a solid back 3 - it's not a couple of good players schmodt lifted from nowhere, only Sua'ali'i is new really

I stand corrected, but no question Schmidt has turned them around in a pretty short time, thus demonstrating the art of the possible. I may have undercalled slightly the quality of the squad but the point was about decent coaching not magicking up players - just that as you say it’s not an entire group of worldies

And I confess to not having watched the RC for a while.

Fair, and I don't mean to underplay what Schmidt has done. He's the ideal coach for them at the moment - give them structure and belief but let them play. Exactly what England need tbh

Agreed

[Puja]

As usual there's some great analysis and some that sounds bit far fetched, but the conclusion is quite interesting given so much of the conversation on here.

Interesting video, although his analysis of Smith's early cross-field kick to Sleightholme, which was way too flat and forced him to stop, as "inch-perfect" was a bit much, as was his conclusion that Ford not coming on was a major reason we did worse in the last 15 than we did against the ABs or Australia. Yes, Ford was there when we were disclipined and calm to score after the Kellaway intercept and was a big part of that recovery, but he was also the person who threw the Kellaway intercept in the first place, so not as strong a point as you think, Squidge...

The conclusion is one which is interesting to hear a neutral say, as it's one I've been equivocating over myself. Yes, losing 6 consecutive tight games against top opposition is far from great and I'm not happy, but he's not wrong in saying that a couple of tiny small margins (Ford's penalty kick going 4 inches left and Itoje taking the restart cleanly (and I'm still grumpy that that was called a knock-on, cause I'm pretty sure it went backwards)) and we'd be praising Seeking Bananaskins to high heaven for a probable 3 from 4 and a good game against the Boks, rather than calling to burn everything and start again. Small margins, which suggests we're getting close to cracking it.

Puja

[jngf]

As usual there's some great analysis and some that sounds bit far fetched, but the conclusion is quite interesting given so much of the conversation on here.

Interesting video, although his analysis of Smith's early cross-field kick to Sleightholme, which was way too flat and forced him to stop, as "inch-perfect" was a bit much, as was his conclusion that Ford not coming on was a major reason we did worse in the last 15 than we did against the ABs or Australia. Yes, Ford was there when we were disclipined and calm to score after the Kellaway intercept and was a big part of that recovery, but he was also the person who threw the Kellaway intercept in the first place, so not as strong a point as you think, Squidge...

The conclusion is one which is interesting to hear a neutral say, as it's one I've been equivocating over myself. Yes, losing 6 consecutive tight games against top opposition is far from great and I'm not happy, but he's not wrong in saying that a couple of tiny small margins (Ford's penalty kick going 4 inches left and Itoje taking the restart cleanly (and I'm still grumpy that that was called a knock-on, cause I'm pretty sure it went backwards)) and we'd be praising Seeking Bananaskins to high heaven for a probable 3 from 4 and a good game against the Boks, rather than calling to burn everything and start again. Small margins, which suggests we're getting close to cracking it.

Puja

Puja, I agree and am happy for Sushi Bap to continue for the next 6 Nations. Having said that, still think England would benefit from a back rather than a forward as it’s next head coach as I believe they have more intuition ( all things being equal ) on how to get a side attacking ( including the forwards! )

[Puja]

Puja, I agree and am happy for Sushi Bap to continue for the next 6 Nations. Still think England would benefit from a back rather than a forward as it’s next head coach as I believe they have more intuition ( all things being equal ) on how to get a side attacking.

My ideal scenario would be for us to pick up Joe Schmidt as a consultant/assistant for Seems Bedraggled after the Lions tour. It will never happen, because I suspect he will either be tempted by the ARU offering a blank cheque and copious begging to stay on till 2027, or he'll stick by his convictions and return to his semi-retirement to look after family (and either way, moving across the world to England would be a big ask for someone with family issues to consider), but he would be the ideal experienced head to add that little extra 10% to England in the 2 years before the RWC, in the same way that he was for Foster and NZ.

Puja

[Banquo]

As usual there's some great analysis and some that sounds bit far fetched, but the conclusion is quite interesting given so much of the conversation on here.

Interesting video, although his analysis of Smith's early cross-field kick to Sleightholme, which was way too flat and forced him to stop, as "inch-perfect" was a bit much, as was his conclusion that Ford not coming on was a major reason we did worse in the last 15 than we did against the ABs or Australia. Yes, Ford was there when we were disclipined and calm to score after the Kellaway intercept and was a big part of that recovery, but he was also the person who threw the Kellaway intercept in the first place, so not as strong a point as you think, Squidge...

The conclusion is one which is interesting to hear a neutral say, as it's one I've been equivocating over myself. Yes, losing 6 consecutive tight games against top opposition is far from great and I'm not happy, but he's not wrong in saying that a couple of tiny small margins (Ford's penalty kick going 4 inches left and Itoje taking the restart cleanly (and I'm still grumpy that that was called a knock-on, cause I'm pretty sure it went backwards)) and we'd be praising Seeking Bananaskins to high heaven for a probable 3 from 4 and a good game against the Boks, rather than calling to burn everything and start again. Small margins, which suggests we're getting close to cracking it.

Puja

the question is, how to be the right side of small margins. Belief, effort, skill under pressure...correct selection and use of bench are a few things I guess