Team for Scotland

[Mr Mwenda]

It really hammers home how dependent England's performance is on Mitchell's. Presumably the reason they persist with the same tactics is because they reckon that executed properly they work. If players fail to execute plan A will they be able to execute plan b? For me yesterday the problem was the English couldn't kick like they managed to v the French, the kicks and the chase were poorer. In the second half, there were spells where it was appearing to get England on top but then there was a moment of stupidity to lose momentum. The ref being quite inconsistent was part of that but obviously that hit both ways.

Just trying to think through what the players are thinking. The idea that they are robots steered by shiny bumcrack seems ridiculous to me.

[Insouciant]

Meanwhile Italy v France is a right laugh.

France v Italy is making up for our turgid nerve shredder yesterday. I can't figure if it's good attack or lack of defence but there's so much ambition and invention. Italy's backline is so much more fun than ours, I'd like to see us play with their centre partnership. Our game against them might be trickier than people assume.

Jeez - as I was writing this it went to 28-17 France. Only 30 minutes played.

edit - ok, we could improve with Italy's centres in attack, but less so in defence. France going through Italy like a hot knife through butter. 54 minutes gone and France have scored 54. Nuts.

[Banquo]

I agree with the gist of this but it doesn’t fit the narrative so won’t be acknowledged. The best off the cuff, gain line pass from an England player all championship has been M. Smith vs Ireland but, well, you know.
F. Smith has a poor game, imo, but so would any 10 in that performance.

F Smith did not have a poor game, neither did m smith. Both are good interntionals.

Meanwhile Italy v France is a right laugh.

Two points here.

1) it’s possible to have a bad game but still be a good international.
2) I don’t think Fin had a bad game. He was just a bit meh. But I also feel like most of that wasn’t really his fault, and considering the tactics, we’d have been better off with Marcus at 10 and Steward at FB.

Which is not a good look, imo

Fin Smith barely touched the ball in fairness (his oppo had it about twice as much), did little wrong and a lot right esp in defence and nailed a key long distance kick. The point I was making though was that both Smiths are proper internationals. Not sure tho why you think Marcus was more suited to 10 for that game, Steward might have been a better bet at 15 possibly.

[Mellsblue]

F Smith did not have a poor game, neither did m smith. Both are good interntionals.

Meanwhile Italy v France is a right laugh.

Two points here.

1) it’s possible to have a bad game but still be a good international.
2) I don’t think Fin had a bad game. He was just a bit meh. But I also feel like most of that wasn’t really his fault, and considering the tactics, we’d have been better off with Marcus at 10 and Steward at FB.

Which is not a good look, imo

Fin Smith barely touched the ball in fairness (his oppo had it about twice as much), did little wrong and a lot right esp in defence and nailed a key long distance kick. The point I was making though was that both Smiths are proper internationals. Not sure tho why you think Marcus was more suited to 10 for that game, Steward might have been a better bet at 15 possibly.

According to B Youngs, F. Smith passed once more than he tackled. Which is less than ideal.

[Stom]

F Smith did not have a poor game, neither did m smith. Both are good interntionals.

Meanwhile Italy v France is a right laugh.

Two points here.

1) it’s possible to have a bad game but still be a good international.
2) I don’t think Fin had a bad game. He was just a bit meh. But I also feel like most of that wasn’t really his fault, and considering the tactics, we’d have been better off with Marcus at 10 and Steward at FB.

Which is not a good look, imo

Fin Smith barely touched the ball in fairness (his oppo had it about twice as much), did little wrong and a lot right esp in defence and nailed a key long distance kick. The point I was making though was that both Smiths are proper internationals. Not sure tho why you think Marcus was more suited to 10 for that game, Steward might have been a better bet at 15 possibly.

For me, Scotland are the opposite of us. Good out wide, poor close in. Marcus is better, for me, at making things happen. If he runs the ball from 10, or looks like he’s going to run before offloading, I feel like we’d have made more meters than by going wide. Our forwards could make a dent when they actually had the ball.

But it’s all moot, because the tactics stank.

If SB is going to go all “different tactics for different games”, he needs to actual analyze the opposition and change it up. Because that was dreadful.

[Banquo]

Two points here.

1) it’s possible to have a bad game but still be a good international.
2) I don’t think Fin had a bad game. He was just a bit meh. But I also feel like most of that wasn’t really his fault, and considering the tactics, we’d have been better off with Marcus at 10 and Steward at FB.

Which is not a good look, imo

Fin Smith barely touched the ball in fairness (his oppo had it about twice as much), did little wrong and a lot right esp in defence and nailed a key long distance kick. The point I was making though was that both Smiths are proper internationals. Not sure tho why you think Marcus was more suited to 10 for that game, Steward might have been a better bet at 15 possibly.

According to B Youngs, F. Smith passed once more than he tackled. Which is less than ideal.

Yep, because he had so little ball. Think he kicked 5 or 6 times, ran five times, passed 17 times.

[Oakboy]

F Smith did not have a poor game, neither did m smith. Both are good interntionals.

Meanwhile Italy v France is a right laugh.

Two points here.

1) it’s possible to have a bad game but still be a good international.
2) I don’t think Fin had a bad game. He was just a bit meh. But I also feel like most of that wasn’t really his fault, and considering the tactics, we’d have been better off with Marcus at 10 and Steward at FB.

Which is not a good look, imo

Fin Smith barely touched the ball in fairness (his oppo had it about twice as much), did little wrong and a lot right esp in defence and nailed a key long distance kick. The point I was making though was that both Smiths are proper internationals. Not sure tho why you think Marcus was more suited to 10 for that game, Steward might have been a better bet at 15 possibly.

If you did an analysis of the performances of the two HCs, how would they come out? Did either make good use of the gap week? In England's case was more preparation useful?

[Banquo]

Two points here.

1) it’s possible to have a bad game but still be a good international.
2) I don’t think Fin had a bad game. He was just a bit meh. But I also feel like most of that wasn’t really his fault, and considering the tactics, we’d have been better off with Marcus at 10 and Steward at FB.

Which is not a good look, imo

Fin Smith barely touched the ball in fairness (his oppo had it about twice as much), did little wrong and a lot right esp in defence and nailed a key long distance kick. The point I was making though was that both Smiths are proper internationals. Not sure tho why you think Marcus was more suited to 10 for that game, Steward might have been a better bet at 15 possibly.

For me, Scotland are the opposite of us. Good out wide, poor close in. Marcus is better, for me, at making things happen. If he runs the ball from 10, or looks like he’s going to run before offloading, I feel like we’d have made more meters than by going wide. Our forwards could make a dent when they actually had the ball.

But it’s all moot, because the tactics stank.

If SB is going to go all “different tactics for different games”, he needs to actual analyze the opposition and change it up. Because that was dreadful.

Personally I think Scotland would have had even more joy at the breakdown with Marcus doing his jink n die, and Fin S did well with his carrying and defence so we’ll have to disagree.

I agree that such horses for courses switches are difficult when they veer and with not much time to cohere. The other problem we clearly have is an inability to move from one mindset to another. Is that players or coaching? They just look utterly confused sometimes- esp odd yesterday in defence cos Scotland were always going to play like that.

[Banquo]

Meanwhile Italy v France is a right laugh.

France v Italy is making up for our turgid nerve shredder yesterday. I can't figure if it's good attack or lack of defence but there's so much ambition and invention. Italy's backline is so much more fun than ours, I'd like to see us play with their centre partnership. Our game against them might be trickier than people assume.

Jeez - as I was writing this it went to 28-17 France. Only 30 minutes played.

edit - ok, we could improve with Italy's centres in attack, but less so in defence. France going through Italy like a hot knife through butter. 54 minutes gone and France have scored 54. Nuts.

Unfortunately it’s a bit semi opposed now which France are good at!!

[Insouciant]

Meanwhile Italy v France is a right laugh.

France v Italy is making up for our turgid nerve shredder yesterday. I can't figure if it's good attack or lack of defence but there's so much ambition and invention. Italy's backline is so much more fun than ours, I'd like to see us play with their centre partnership. Our game against them might be trickier than people assume.

Jeez - as I was writing this it went to 28-17 France. Only 30 minutes played.

edit - ok, we could improve with Italy's centres in attack, but less so in defence. France going through Italy like a hot knife through butter. 54 minutes gone and France have scored 54. Nuts.

Unfortunately it’s a bit semi opposed now which France are good at!!

It surprises me how bad Italy are defensively. I suppose the game was over at half time, but damn - Italy must have more missed tackles than we did yesterday. They looked decent/ambitious going forwards but if they defend like that I'm back us to get a bonus point.

[Mellsblue]

Fin Smith barely touched the ball in fairness (his oppo had it about twice as much), did little wrong and a lot right esp in defence and nailed a key long distance kick. The point I was making though was that both Smiths are proper internationals. Not sure tho why you think Marcus was more suited to 10 for that game, Steward might have been a better bet at 15 possibly.

According to B Youngs, F. Smith passed once more than he tackled. Which is less than ideal.

Yep, because he had so little ball. Think he kicked 5 or 6 times, ran five times, passed 17 times.

Yep, not blaming the player…

[p/d]

Sleightholme 0 metres and Freeman 6 is pure gold!

[Banquo]

France v Italy is making up for our turgid nerve shredder yesterday. I can't figure if it's good attack or lack of defence but there's so much ambition and invention. Italy's backline is so much more fun than ours, I'd like to see us play with their centre partnership. Our game against them might be trickier than people assume.

Jeez - as I was writing this it went to 28-17 France. Only 30 minutes played.

edit - ok, we could improve with Italy's centres in attack, but less so in defence. France going through Italy like a hot knife through butter. 54 minutes gone and France have scored 54. Nuts.

Unfortunately it’s a bit semi opposed now which France are good at!!

It surprises me how bad Italy are defensively. I suppose the game was over at half time, but damn - Italy must have more missed tackles than we did yesterday. They looked decent/ambitious going forwards but if they defend like that I'm back us to get a bonus point.

Surprisingly Italy had a lower % missed than France, but had about twice as many to make so c 35 missed tackles…hence score line I suppose. Given France that room and inevitably they will rip you up

[Banquo]

Sleightholme 0 metres and Freeman 6 is pure gold!

5 of them was in not quite getting the ball down

[p/d]

Sleightholme 0 metres and Freeman 6 is pure gold!

5 of them was in not quite getting the ball down

Hush now.

[Mellsblue]

Sleightholme 0 metres and Freeman 6 is pure gold!

5 of them was in not quite getting the ball down

Hush now.

[Mikey Brown]

Good on him. Read that quote earlier and the tone came across very differently.

He’s quickly become one of my favourite England players, despite competing with Caden Murley and only making 6 metres.

[Oakboy]

Reading comments from the likes of Moore and Dawson (about players always going for ugly wins above entertaining), one would conclude that tactics are totally either/or: kick it away and win uglily; pass the ball and lose prettily.

No critic is saying NEVER kick. What is required is kicking well at the right time, passing well at the right time and running it at the right time. We understand territorial fear but tactics that require us to make more than twice as many tackles as the opposition when kicked ball is run back, are the wrong sort of gamble, IMO. Quite simply, our players are better than that. A balanced approach against Scotland could (probably should) have resulted in a comfortable win. The wrong tactics came close to producing defeat. The coaches should not be congratulating themselves.

[fivepointer]

Dawson wrote this -

For me, the glaring the omission is kicking the ball when it was the wrong option.

When there is a five-on-three in attack, let's isolate that final defender and walk in for the try.

I don't mind kicking when it's really static. It's difficult to break down Test defences when you don't have momentum in the game.

I think we'd all agree. There were times on Saturday when moving the ball was the right option. We had a front foot ball and numbers out wide yet we chose to kick it away. Also, if we're going to kick, then lets do it well. Lets chase it properly and try to turn it into an advantage rather than simply giving up possession.

Understand the caution but this team could do with loosening up a bit. We have backs that can create challenges for defences yet wont trust them with the ball.

[Mellsblue]

I agree with Dawson. Borthwick has to go.

This is what always used to annoy me about the Farrell grubbers that were praised. It might have been a well executed kick but was it the correct option.
I was in and out of a boredom induced coma by this point in the match so my recollection may be slightly wrong but Slade put a grubber kick through when we were halfway between the 10 and the Scot 22. The kick stopped just on the 5 and the Scot player had to make hurried clearance. A perfectly executed grubber. The problem was we had a 4 on 3, possibly 2, maybe it’s the 5 on 3 Dawson mentions, at the time of the kick…

[Oakboy]

I wonder if there are statistics showing where on the pitch rucks occur? Mitchell box-kicked often (fact). Was it slow ball from the forwards at the breakdown or safe ball because of the territorial situation that led Mitchell to believe that kicking was the right option?

[Mellsblue]

I wonder if there are statistics showing where on the pitch rucks occur? Mitchell box-kicked often (fact). Was it slow ball from the forwards at the breakdown or safe ball because of the territorial situation that led Mitchell to believe that kicking was the right option?

Or c) the he was under instruction to kick…

[Epaminondas Pules]

I wonder if there are statistics showing where on the pitch rucks occur? Mitchell box-kicked often (fact). Was it slow ball from the forwards at the breakdown or safe ball because of the territorial situation that led Mitchell to believe that kicking was the right option?

Or c) the he was under instruction to kick…

I'll take, what is Steve Borthwick's gameplan for $100

[Mellsblue]

I wonder if there are statistics showing where on the pitch rucks occur? Mitchell box-kicked often (fact). Was it slow ball from the forwards at the breakdown or safe ball because of the territorial situation that led Mitchell to believe that kicking was the right option?

Or c) the he was under instruction to kick…

I'll take, what is Steve Borthwick's gameplan for $100

[Mellsblue]

It seems there’s nothing to worry about. Borthers has had his say:

“I want the team to play with ball in hand, to attack with it, to be brave, aggressive with the ball, but there is another team trying to stop you and they’re pretty good at it,” he said.

“Ultimately they’re strong in defence, strong at the breakdown, and take the game to this kicking game.“

As long as the other team isn’t strong in defence and at the breakdown - how many can there be - we’ll play some ball in hand.