Team for Italy

[FKAS]

Job done. Scored quite a few tries, up to second in the table. Just need the Scots to do us a favour and for us to hammer the Welsh.

I really don’t think we’re going to hammer the Welsh, don’t say I didn’t warn anybody ….

I don't know what to make of Wales. There's plenty of fight and grit there. Occasionally they look good and then at other times incompetent. At home Vs us they'll certainly be fired up.

[Danno]

Yep the attacking structure is piss poor. I'm happy to persevere with Borthwick but Wigglesworth I do wish we'd replace or at least remove from the attack position.

Joe needs to go too, our defence is shocking

Losing Lawrence upset our balance quite a bit. Dingwall and Daly wasn't a particularly balanced midfield and Italy's centres are quality. Not helped by the usual CCS misread.

Joe's not covering himself in glory but he's still fairly new in post so I'd give him a little more time.

Being full-time might help

[FKAS]

Joe needs to go too, our defence is shocking

Losing Lawrence upset our balance quite a bit. Dingwall and Daly wasn't a particularly balanced midfield and Italy's centres are quality. Not helped by the usual CCS misread.

Joe's not covering himself in glory but he's still fairly new in post so I'd give him a little more time.

Being full-time might help

It certainly would. He didn't really get any time to change much pre AIs either.

[Epaminondas Pules]

I know we’ve score lots of points but our attack is utter gash! We are so readable it’s ridiculous! And individual decision. Making is terrible!

Yep the attacking structure is piss poor. I'm happy to persevere with Borthwick but Wigglesworth I do wish we'd replace or at least remove from the attack position.

Joe needs to go too, our defence is shocking

The whole lot needs to go if we’re ever going to be more than the sum of our parts. It starts with Borthwick!

[Oakboy]

Yep the attacking structure is piss poor. I'm happy to persevere with Borthwick but Wigglesworth I do wish we'd replace or at least remove from the attack position.

Joe needs to go too, our defence is shocking

The whole lot needs to go if we’re ever going to be more than the sum of our parts. It starts with Borthwick!

You are probably right but recent results will not produce change.

[p/d]

I know we’ve score lots of points but our attack is utter gash! We are so readable it’s ridiculous! And individual decision. Making is terrible!

Couldn’t agree more.

Even the commentators lost interest mid way through the 2nd half.

[FKAS]

Yep the attacking structure is piss poor. I'm happy to persevere with Borthwick but Wigglesworth I do wish we'd replace or at least remove from the attack position.

Joe needs to go too, our defence is shocking

The whole lot needs to go if we’re ever going to be more than the sum of our parts. It starts with Borthwick!

Not sure about that. He's fixed the lineout, got a squad that's mostly under 30 and will be around for the next world cup and most of them beyond. Narrow losses are being turned into narrow wins now. I just think some of his assistants are a bit green. Joe el-Abd is a Top14 winning defence coach who's also done the top job so that's a positive though losing Walters and Felix were massive losses. I'd have preferred to move Wigglesworth on and keep Felix.

[Oakboy]

What would we do if Itoje was not available? Borthwick needs to find another lock asap.

[Spiffy]

Random thoughts :
Fin Smith is very sound, a good passer, kicker, and defender but he is playing conservatively as though he has been told not to try too much.
Sleightholme is powerful and fast but clumsy.
Freeman is Lions class.
What does Cunningham-South actually bring to the party?
The Marcus bunny hop is pointless and embarrassing - time to stop.
England are flogging T. Curry to death -how much longer can he last?
Garbisi looks short of international class especially in line kicking where he can't make any distance. Should have been subbed by T. Allen early.
Italy do give away some unbelievably soft tries - a very frustrating watch. The team needs a massive collective kick up the arrse.
Capuozzo is a delight.

[FKAS]

What would we do if Itoje was not available? Borthwick needs to find another lock asap.

It is an issue currently. Coles, Munga, Clark and Martin all injured. Hammond and Tizard not kicking on (maybe add Chessum Jnr to that). Ribbans and Moon removed themselves from contention.

If Martin was fit then going with a Chessum and Martin combo if Itoje were injured would be fine. Coles in for Itoje would be a drastic step down but he'd do the job. We could do with some of these young talented locks kicking on.

[p/d]

What would we do if Itoje was not available? Borthwick needs to find another lock asap.

Score more tries when camped out on the oppo try line?

[Danno]

What would we do if Itoje was not available? Borthwick needs to find another lock asap.

Score more tries when camped out on the oppo try line?

Nah just dive over a 6 person ruck and wonder why you get held the fuck up

[p/d]

What would we do if Itoje was not available? Borthwick needs to find another lock asap.

Score more tries when camped out on the oppo try line?

Nah just dive over a 6 person ruck and wonder why you get held the fuck up

But what a dive!!! The degree of difficulty certainly erased the 2 penalties he gave away.

[Banquo]

I’ve seen tortoise’s breach the gainline better than Earl:) Brilliant in open play, Jack Jones at punching holes in any sort of defensive wall hence not a natural test no.8 imo. He’s a latter day version of Pierre Spies or Tom Croft in the context of a talented and athletic player being asked to play in too tight a position for their natural skillset.

where should 53 cap Bok Spies and 40 england and 5 time test lion- despite injury- Croft have played, Carwyn?

[Puja]

Yep the attacking structure is piss poor. I'm happy to persevere with Borthwick but Wigglesworth I do wish we'd replace or at least remove from the attack position.

Joe needs to go too, our defence is shocking

Losing Lawrence upset our balance quite a bit. Dingwall and Daly wasn't a particularly balanced midfield and Italy's centres are quality. Not helped by the usual CCS misread.

Joe's not covering himself in glory but he's still fairly new in post so I'd give him a little more time.

I thought our defence this tournament has been pretty good - we've been the only side to stop France's power runners dead in their tracks.

Weird old game. Brace was absolutely convinced that everyone had bought tickets to come see him and his shiny new whistle, but then again, we kept giving him reasons to blow up rather than adapting to him. We looked like we were thinking about the points difference before we started and didn't cope with the Italian blitz at all - feeding Daly into it with long wide floaty passes twice in a row was painful.

Thought Mitchell and FSmith were poor. Both Currys were exceptional and I'd have them both starting, either side of TWillis, against Wales.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

I’d love to see the Currys and Willis together. What actually happened to Willis though? I missed why he went off.

The choice at 13 is an interesting one. Daly was good today, though generally don’t like the idea of him at 13 internationally. Beard is in form but untested (though looked good for the As outside Dingwall). Freeman is a winger but has seemed to be an option there previously (plays alongside Dingwall and would give Roebuck a chance) for England.

Those are the interesting choices. Then there’s the realistic choice which will obviously be Slade, giving us the most hilariously passive midfield available.

[Puja]

Those are the interesting choices. Then there’s the realistic choice which will obviously be Slade, giving us the most hilariously passive midfield available.

Ugh. Hadn't really internalised that we'll 100% be going Dingwall/Slade until you pointed it out. While I'm not convinced that Lawrence is actually very good (I think he would've got taken apart trying to carry hard into Brexoncello today, if he hadn't got hurt), he is at least direct, which we do need alongside Dingwall. I'm not convinced about having a wing at 13, but I think Dingwall/Freeman is probably the least offensive of our limited options, and comes with a side of letting Roebuck have a go on the wing.

Can't say I agree with you on Daly being good - I thought he looked like his brain still thought his legs moved the same speed as they did in 2018. He's never been an international-quality centre and, while he's given a slight pass for the mid-game disruption, he was spectacularly unthreatening as a 13.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

Yeah that’s fair. I should retract ‘good’ and say ‘alright’, but the game definitely didn’t have my full attention for the 80.

If only we could find an English Menoncello somewhere. He was fantastic.

[Scrumhead]

Joe needs to go too, our defence is shocking

Losing Lawrence upset our balance quite a bit. Dingwall and Daly wasn't a particularly balanced midfield and Italy's centres are quality. Not helped by the usual CCS misread.

Joe's not covering himself in glory but he's still fairly new in post so I'd give him a little more time.

I thought our defence this tournament has been pretty good - we've been the only side to stop France's power runners dead in their tracks.

Weird old game. Brace was absolutely convinced that everyone had bought tickets to come see him and his shiny new whistle, but then again, we kept giving him reasons to blow up rather than adapting to him. We looked like we were thinking about the points difference before we started and didn't cope with the Italian blitz at all - feeding Daly into it with long wide floaty passes twice in a row was painful.

Thought Mitchell and FSmith were poor. Both Currys were exceptional and I'd have them both starting, either side of TWillis, against Wales.

Puja

Agreed. As much as Ben Key kept insisting how much better the attack looked with ‘Northampton shape’ etc. and the media are fawning over Fin for kicking his goals (very well I might add), I wasn’t overly impressed.

The Italian defence deserves credit for some good reads in midfield, but all the bollocks about Fin ‘bringing people into the game etc.’ looks very much like the Emperor’s new clothes I suspected it might be. Considering how much better the platform from the set piece has been, Mitchell has also underwhelmed. I was excited for him to come back, but he’s not been great.

100% agree on the Currys. I’m really pleased for Ben Curry but it also makes me a little frustrated to think such a quality asset was ignored for a good 5-6yrs.

[Mr Mwenda]

Losing Lawrence upset our balance quite a bit. Dingwall and Daly wasn't a particularly balanced midfield and Italy's centres are quality. Not helped by the usual CCS misread.

Joe's not covering himself in glory but he's still fairly new in post so I'd give him a little more time.

I thought our defence this tournament has been pretty good - we've been the only side to stop France's power runners dead in their tracks.

Weird old game. Brace was absolutely convinced that everyone had bought tickets to come see him and his shiny new whistle, but then again, we kept giving him reasons to blow up rather than adapting to him. We looked like we were thinking about the points difference before we started and didn't cope with the Italian blitz at all - feeding Daly into it with long wide floaty passes twice in a row was painful.

Thought Mitchell and FSmith were poor. Both Currys were exceptional and I'd have them both starting, either side of TWillis, against Wales.

Puja

Agreed. As much as Ben Key kept insisting how much better the attack looked with ‘Northampton shape’ etc. and the media are fawning over Fin for kicking his goals (very well I might add), I wasn’t overly impressed.

The Italian defence deserves credit for some good reads in midfield, but all the bollocks about Fin ‘bringing people into the game etc.’ looks very much like the Emperor’s new clothes I suspected it might be. Considering how much better the platform from the set piece has been, Mitchell has also underwhelmed. I was excited for him to come back, but he’s not been great.

100% agree on the Currys. I’m really pleased for Ben Curry but it also makes me a little frustrated to think such a quality asset was ignored for a good 5-6yrs.

Agreed about the Northampton shape. There was at least on kadab from FSmith that was as bad any by other tens. Still, the disruption by injury hardly helped.

What did people make of Dingwall? I must say he seemed anonymous to me bar one succulent pass in one try build up. That could mean he was being quietly efficient against good opponents.

[Scrumhead]

The midfield disruption didn’t account for some poor decision making and poor kicking on attacking ball. His kicking from hand was excellent though.

Dingwall was decent I thought. It’s always hard to shine when your role is to be a facilitator for others.

Now we’ve gone all in on Fin, I think we need to stick with it (unless of course he gets a Lions gig). I just want a see a more realistic appraisal of his performances. He’s been fine but no better than Marcus and is not the messiah he is being made out to be in some quarters.

[Oakboy]

The first point I'd make is that Furbank is a far better FB than either Marcus or Daly. If we assume that Borthwick agrees and picks him, what next? IFW will obviously walk back in in place of Sleightholme. Freeman will be in the XV as will Mitchell despite not being back to his best (to be fair, he is the one tasked with adapting to changes in tactics, some contrast Scotland to Italy).

Dingwall? Maybe, best described as an adequate squad member?

Long-term, will Borthwick try Fin at 12 so that Marcus can start at 10? Most will shudder at the Ford/Farrell memory provoked but there is a case for it.

I don't think Lawrence is the long-term solution at 13. He's good but not good enough. Freeman needs trying there.

Daly, IMO, remains a reasonable club 13/15. At international level he was an outstanding winger till Jones stupidly buggered him about. He is definitely a worse 13 than Slade, not that I'd pick either in the shirt for Wales.

[p/d]

Not sure why people are so down on Lawrence. The guy is the best 13 we have and puts in a hell of a shift for England.

Much bigger problem now he is not available. Risk 80mins of long floaty passes troubling very few defences

[jngf]

I’ve seen tortoise’s breach the gainline better than Earl:) Brilliant in open play, Jack Jones at punching holes in any sort of defensive wall hence not a natural test no.8 imo. He’s a latter day version of Pierre Spies or Tom Croft in the context of a talented and athletic player being asked to play in too tight a position for their natural skillset.

where should 53 cap Bok Spies and 40 england and 5 time test lion- despite injury- Croft have played, Carwyn?

Both on the wing Warren!

[Banquo]

I’ve seen tortoise’s breach the gainline better than Earl:) Brilliant in open play, Jack Jones at punching holes in any sort of defensive wall hence not a natural test no.8 imo. He’s a latter day version of Pierre Spies or Tom Croft in the context of a talented and athletic player being asked to play in too tight a position for their natural skillset.

where should 53 cap Bok Spies and 40 england and 5 time test lion- despite injury- Croft have played, Carwyn?

Both on the wing Warren!

Good one. Though Spies did play there a couple of times, unsurprisingly he was terrible.