New and Improved EPS Watch/Player Form Thread

[Puja]

100% agree.

It’s weird though. I’m keen on Fin Smith keeping the 10 shirt for now because it’s probably what’s best for him at the moment, rather than because I think he’s actually been especially good.

To me he’s been a similarly mixed bag in terms of good and bad moments to Marcus at 10, it’s just that a lot of his good moments have been more typically England fly half-y. Kicking crucial points and some good tackles and all that Wilkinson-esque stuff.

I think there is a lot of truth here. Potentially, there is more to be gained by giving Fin a run in the shirt, but it’s a very shabby way to treat Marcus.

Wholeheartedly disagree on @FKAS ‘meh’ comment. Marcus was literally the only bright spark we had in a lot of those losses.

I think the problem was that *he* was the bright spark. If you want someone to make a dazzling individual break, he's definitely your man. But we can get that from him at 15 as well, while having more a team-oriented 10.

Puja

[Banquo]

100% agree.

It’s weird though. I’m keen on Fin Smith keeping the 10 shirt for now because it’s probably what’s best for him at the moment, rather than because I think he’s actually been especially good.

To me he’s been a similarly mixed bag in terms of good and bad moments to Marcus at 10, it’s just that a lot of his good moments have been more typically England fly half-y. Kicking crucial points and some good tackles and all that Wilkinson-esque stuff.

I think there is a lot of truth here. Potentially, there is more to be gained by giving Fin a run in the shirt, but it’s a very shabby way to treat Marcus.

Wholeheartedly disagree on @FKAS ‘meh’ comment. Marcus was literally the only bright spark we had in a lot of those losses.

I think the problem was that *he* was the bright spark. If you want someone to make a dazzling individual break, he's definitely your man. But we can get that from him at 15 as well, while having more a team-oriented 10.

Puja

exactly


apart from the 15 bit . Though I'd rather be sticking with him at this point

[twitchy]

From the tgraph.

[Puja]

I had not seen this article about Marchant before: https://archive.ph/39VlV

Apparently Eddie Jones dropped him entirely from the XXIII (picking apprentice WJoseph on the bench instead of him for the last two games) because of one minor mistake he made in the first test against Australia and then didn't select or talk to him again, resulting in him signing for Stade before Jones got the Spanish Archer and Borthwick reinstating and playing him in 2023 came too late.

Eddie's parting gift.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

I had not seen this article about Marchant before: https://archive.ph/39VlV

Apparently Eddie Jones dropped him entirely from the XXIII (picking apprentice WJoseph on the bench instead of him for the last two games) because of one minor mistake he made in the first test against Australia and then didn't select or talk to him again, resulting in him signing for Stade before Jones got the Spanish Archer and Borthwick reinstating and playing him in 2023 came too late.

Eddie's parting gift.

Puja

I didn’t know that was the specific reason but seemed like it was an open secret that we lost Marchant almost entirely due to Jones being a twat.

Imagine if we’d still had a centre with pace who could hit a good attacking line, and also defend at 13, rather than having to pick 2 players to do that job and no specialist 12 for the last 2 years.

I don’t know if it’s too late for Marchant to come back and make an impression for England, but it’s a real shame we lost him.

I saw that graph from the Telegraph and I’m not really sure what to take from it. I guess it functions as a depth chart, but seems strange to jumble those different tiers of the game together.

[FKAS]

I had not seen this article about Marchant before: https://archive.ph/39VlV

Apparently Eddie Jones dropped him entirely from the XXIII (picking apprentice WJoseph on the bench instead of him for the last two games) because of one minor mistake he made in the first test against Australia and then didn't select or talk to him again, resulting in him signing for Stade before Jones got the Spanish Archer and Borthwick reinstating and playing him in 2023 came too late.

Eddie's parting gift.

Puja

I didn’t know that was the specific reason but seemed like it was an open secret that we lost Marchant almost entirely due to Jones being a twat.

Imagine if we’d still had a centre with pace who could hit a good attacking line, and also defend at 13, rather than having to pick 2 players to do that job and no specialist 12 for the last 2 years.

I don’t know if it’s too late for Marchant to come back and make an impression for England, but it’s a real shame we lost him.

I saw that graph from the Telegraph and I’m not really sure what to take from it. I guess it functions as a depth chart, but seems strange to jumble those different tiers of the game together.

If he signs a deal for a Prem side he'll be straight back in, Borthwick always seemed to like him.

[Epaminondas Pules]

From the tgraph.

Context on this. This is only players who have had some involvement with England or England A this season, including training with the squad. Hence seeing Sean Kerr over Waghorn, who is above him at his own club. Kerr trained with Eng A in November.

[Oakboy]

From the tgraph.

Context on this. This is only players who have had some involvement with England or England A this season, including training with the squad. Hence seeing Sean Kerr over Waghorn, who is above him at his own club. Kerr trained with Eng A in November.

According to the article 15 players have been given a debut by Borthwick which means two in an earlier season but now off the scene. Who are they, I wonder? Arundel perhaps is one???

[FKAS]

From the tgraph.

Context on this. This is only players who have had some involvement with England or England A this season, including training with the squad. Hence seeing Sean Kerr over Waghorn, who is above him at his own club. Kerr trained with Eng A in November.

According to the article 15 players have been given a debut by Borthwick which means two in an earlier season but now off the scene. Who are they, I wonder? Arundel perhaps is one???

Ethan Roots?

[Epaminondas Pules]

From the tgraph.

Context on this. This is only players who have had some involvement with England or England A this season, including training with the squad. Hence seeing Sean Kerr over Waghorn, who is above him at his own club. Kerr trained with Eng A in November.

According to the article 15 players have been given a debut by Borthwick which means two in an earlier season but now off the scene. Who are they, I wonder? Arundel perhaps is one???

Arundell was a Jones pick.

Ethan Roots and Jack Walker

[Banquo]

From the tgraph.

Context on this. This is only players who have had some involvement with England or England A this season, including training with the squad. Hence seeing Sean Kerr over Waghorn, who is above him at his own club. Kerr trained with Eng A in November.

yep, need to read the article to understand the table

[Epaminondas Pules]

From the tgraph.

Context on this. This is only players who have had some involvement with England or England A this season, including training with the squad. Hence seeing Sean Kerr over Waghorn, who is above him at his own club. Kerr trained with Eng A in November.

yep, need to read the article to understand the table

He's also got it wrong too, with the likes of Kerr and Griffin only being called to train with the A squad, not being called up to the A squad.

[twitchy]

Bath's huge italy u20 lock has lived in england for a while and could be EQ eventually. No real quotes though.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... ock-wales/

[Epaminondas Pules]

Bath's huge italy u20 lock has lived in england for a while and could be EQ eventually. No real quotes though.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... ock-wales/

Without paywall: https://www.removepaywall.com/search?ur ... ock-wales/

[FKAS]

Bath's huge italy u20 lock has lived in england for a while and could be EQ eventually. No real quotes though.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... ock-wales/

He's about 6ft5 and 23 stone. Absolutely massive. I think he's lived here long enough already as he moved at the time of pandemic, if not can't be far off. Be interesting to see if he can break through at Bath, initially could be a great impact sub off the bench with Bath having jumpers in the backrow they could afford a big unit giving their scrum, maul and carrying a boost towards the end of games.

[Stom]

100% agree.

It’s weird though. I’m keen on Fin Smith keeping the 10 shirt for now because it’s probably what’s best for him at the moment, rather than because I think he’s actually been especially good.

To me he’s been a similarly mixed bag in terms of good and bad moments to Marcus at 10, it’s just that a lot of his good moments have been more typically England fly half-y. Kicking crucial points and some good tackles and all that Wilkinson-esque stuff.

I think there is a lot of truth here. Potentially, there is more to be gained by giving Fin a run in the shirt, but it’s a very shabby way to treat Marcus.

Wholeheartedly disagree on @FKAS ‘meh’ comment. Marcus was literally the only bright spark we had in a lot of those losses.

I think the problem was that *he* was the bright spark. If you want someone to make a dazzling individual break, he's definitely your man. But we can get that from him at 15 as well, while having more a team-oriented 10.

Puja

But as shown with Fin at 10...he's not got the backline moving either. And he doesn't have the ability to go himself that Marcus has. PLUS, our best bit of attacking intent ball in hand against Scotland came with Marcus at 10...

The thing is, I'm not saying there should be one over the other, necessarily, I'm just rebutting FKAS continually assertion that Marcus does not use his backs, he's selfish, he's not a great 10, etc., etc., when he has literally had to shovel shit for England in pretty much all his appearances, and yet has still showed he can knit things together.

Sure, he's no George Ford, but it doesn't appear Fin is, either. Maybe he can become one, who knows. But while the England centers function like they do at the moment, I'd be more inclined to pick the 10 who can do things ball in hand.

[Oakboy]

But as shown with Fin at 10...he's not got the backline moving either. And he doesn't have the ability to go himself that Marcus has. PLUS, our best bit of attacking intent ball in hand against Scotland came with Marcus at 10... But while the England centers function like they do at the moment, I'd be more inclined to pick the 10 who can do things ball in hand.
[/quote]

I agree with that but I suppose that tomorrow is the acid test for Fin. Borthwick should be planning to tone down on the aimless kicking with the team released to play a bit. He has picked Fin's club 12 indicating that fluency matters. He also has his club SH and wingers. Daly is useful at finding a line from FB and Fin has linked with him a time or two already.

I also see it as a shit or bust game for Lawrence who must be aware that anything short of accuracy and effectiveness could see Freeman taking over at OC. That would be a logical way of bringing Marcus on - at FB with Daly moving to the wing.

The alternative, should Lawrence click but Fin underwhelm, could be JVP and Marcus on together at 9/10.

The game could answer a few questions.

[FKAS]

100% agree.



I think there is a lot of truth here. Potentially, there is more to be gained by giving Fin a run in the shirt, but it’s a very shabby way to treat Marcus.

Wholeheartedly disagree on @FKAS ‘meh’ comment. Marcus was literally the only bright spark we had in a lot of those losses.

I think the problem was that *he* was the bright spark. If you want someone to make a dazzling individual break, he's definitely your man. But we can get that from him at 15 as well, while having more a team-oriented 10.

Puja

But as shown with Fin at 10...he's not got the backline moving either. And he doesn't have the ability to go himself that Marcus has. PLUS, our best bit of attacking intent ball in hand against Scotland came with Marcus at 10...

The thing is, I'm not saying there should be one over the other, necessarily, I'm just rebutting FKAS continually assertion that Marcus does not use his backs, he's selfish, he's not a great 10, etc., etc., when he has literally had to shovel shit for England in pretty much all his appearances, and yet has still showed he can knit things together.

Sure, he's no George Ford, but it doesn't appear Fin is, either. Maybe he can become one, who knows. But while the England centers function like they do at the moment, I'd be more inclined to pick the 10 who can do things ball in hand.

Depends on your definition of great doesn't it. I've said it before that Marcus is a great talent and incredibly skillful but that he's not brought the England backline to life and been at the helm for several narrow losses. Fin has come in and overseen a couple of narrow victories. Fin needs to show he can run the show himself and cement his name in the shirt. Marcus needs to show that he can make the rest of the backline fire and win his shirt back. There's no reason they can't fight for the 10 shirt for the next decade.

I'm confused by your insistence that Marcus is the messiah. Three phases of Marcus passing the ball to runners doesn't change 8 or so tests before where the back three only received the ball from kicks (ours and the oppositions) or Marcus sniping down the blindside.

I think we need this competition at 10 to push both 10s on in their development and that both they and England could benefit as a result.

Be interesting to see how Marcus is used tomorrow, as an impact option against a tiring Italian side he should be devastating at either 10 or 15. I suspect he'll come on at 10.

[Stom]

I think the problem was that *he* was the bright spark. If you want someone to make a dazzling individual break, he's definitely your man. But we can get that from him at 15 as well, while having more a team-oriented 10.

Puja

But as shown with Fin at 10...he's not got the backline moving either. And he doesn't have the ability to go himself that Marcus has. PLUS, our best bit of attacking intent ball in hand against Scotland came with Marcus at 10...

The thing is, I'm not saying there should be one over the other, necessarily, I'm just rebutting FKAS continually assertion that Marcus does not use his backs, he's selfish, he's not a great 10, etc., etc., when he has literally had to shovel shit for England in pretty much all his appearances, and yet has still showed he can knit things together.

Sure, he's no George Ford, but it doesn't appear Fin is, either. Maybe he can become one, who knows. But while the England centers function like they do at the moment, I'd be more inclined to pick the 10 who can do things ball in hand.

Depends on your definition of great doesn't it. I've said it before that Marcus is a great talent and incredibly skillful but that he's not brought the England backline to life and been at the helm for several narrow losses. Fin has come in and overseen a couple of narrow victories. Fin needs to show he can run the show himself and cement his name in the shirt. Marcus needs to show that he can make the rest of the backline fire and win his shirt back. There's no reason they can't fight for the 10 shirt for the next decade.

I'm confused by your insistence that Marcus is the messiah. Three phases of Marcus passing the ball to runners doesn't change 8 or so tests before where the back three only received the ball from kicks (ours and the oppositions) or Marcus sniping down the blindside.

I think we need this competition at 10 to push both 10s on in their development and that both they and England could benefit as a result.

Be interesting to see how Marcus is used tomorrow, as an impact option against a tiring Italian side he should be devastating at either 10 or 15. I suspect he'll come on at 10.

He's far from the messiah. But I don't find the need to denigrate what are essential good performances.

I may get a bit much in backing him up, but that's simply as a counterbalance to what I see as excessive criticism.

We may completely and utterly disagree with how rugby "should" be played. And, tbh, I've struggled with Leicester fans most with this throughout my time on this board. Well, and Sarries fans, obviously

But when the teams problems are obvious, I just don't feel the need to dive in on players who are not playing poorly. I will criticise when the performances are truly poor, or when they fall far below their abilities, but not when they are simply hamstrung by that godawful centre partnership.

Which has now been broken up. And now Fin will have a good game for an England 10.

[Mellsblue]

Look, we’ve all pitched our flag on the 10 debate and we all now see what we want to see. Let’s just enjoy the game - Ireland vs France, that is.

[Stom]

Look, we’ve all pitched our flag on the 10 debate and we all now see what we want to see. Let’s just enjoy the game - Ireland vs France, that is.

lol.

Agreed, though.

I actually don't really mind where we go at 10, so long as we actually have a plan. As it is, the selection at 10 and 15 just seems muddled and of no help to anyone...

[FKAS]

Look, we’ve all pitched our flag on the 10 debate and we all now see what we want to see. Let’s just enjoy the game - Ireland vs France, that is.

lol.

Agreed, though.

I actually don't really mind where we go at 10, so long as we actually have a plan. As it is, the selection at 10 and 15 just seems muddled and of no help to anyone...

Generally in keeping with current tactics where most international teams have two playmakers in the backline. We've seen NZ use DMac and Beauden there. France regularly have Ramos there. The Boks use le Roux and Damian Willemse.

Borthwick had already brought in Furbank to try and support the 10 with an additional playmaker in the backline as Slade wasn't offering that.

Interesting that both England and Italy have gone without the additional playmaker for tomorrow. Allen and Marcus both being dropped from 15 to the bench.

[Puja]

And while we are opining about England centres on the board, PlanetRugby claim to've had official confirmation from the IRB that Bernard Janse van Rensberg's 20 minutes for SA U20s in 2016 does count as tying him in and he therefore cannot become eligible for England on residency.

https://www.planetrugby.com/news/englan ... quirements

Generally, I think PR are more interested in the prospect of England selecting Saffers than the England management are, with regular articles about "South African-born players that England are keeping tabs on!" but I think BJVR would probably have been picked if he had become available. I'm ambivalent on the matter - he'd definitely have improved us and gods know we need someone with his skillset, but I would feel very awkward about England leaping on someone whose only English connection was seeing out a couple of club contracts in the Prem, and gods know that the South African fans would be insufferable about it if we had.

Puja

[Danno]

Generally, I think PR are more interested in the prospect of England selecting Saffers than the England management are, with regular articles about "South African-born players that England are keeping tabs on!" but I think BJVR would probably have been picked if he had become available. I'm ambivalent on the matter - he'd definitely have improved us and gods know we need someone with his skillset, but I would feel very awkward about England leaping on someone whose only English connection was seeing out a couple of club contracts in the Prem, and gods know that the South African fans would be insufferable about it if we had.

Puja

How could we stay on our high horse over the Scots if we picked him

[Puja]

LCD interview where he talks about quitting drinking:

"I'm just not a good Drinker. Like, there'd be times I'd drink and I'd just black out so it ended up not being fun. So yeah I just decided what's the point. I've done a few stupid things in the past, blacking-out.
...
It's not enjoyable. I can't have one; I always want to have two and then I have two, I want to have another one. Like it was never one. I'd always say "Yeah, just going out for one." Wouldn't be one.

It just felt like it affected...like it just crept into life in general. It just didn't really fit in, like I'd always drink too much. I'd always do it too much. There'd be some times where I drink most weekends, there'd be sometimes where I just stop it and then I'll drink again two months later but it'd be like a binging rather than just enjoying it."

Never actually says the words alcoholic or alcohol problem, but definitely skirts around it. Fair play to the man for a) recognising it and b) having the minerals to talk about it openly. We'll not know how many of the rumours about the debacle over his French transfer were actually true, but it does suggest that he's done the right thing and his performances on the pitch do look better for it.

Puja