Argentina tour

[Banquo]

Pearson has dropped off the radar which is a shame

with Saints

I know, was commenting on Bath/Saints in contention....

[FKAS]

That certainly puts some perspective on things.

I’d noticed him seeming to get over the try line quite a lot but I can’t say I really know what he’s about as a player. Will be interesting to see him in the summer. Glad he recovered in time.

I think because he gets around the field so well I hadn’t appreciated how big he is. I had him down as one of those slightly lightweight flanker/lock types. I don’t know whether he throws it around enough in the tight exchanges but he certainly seems to be handy in the loose.

In case anyone else is interested.

Joe BATLEY is a 28-year-old English rugby player standing at 2 m tall (6 ft 7 in) and weighing in at 125 kg (19 st 9.58 lb; 275.58 lb) , who currently plays for Bristol Bears in England as lock.

In the early part of his career he used to play in the backrow as well, played a few games at 8. He can definitely carry a bit. It'll be interesting to see how he does outside of Lam's madcap Bristol style. I remember him being on loan at Tigers and being annoyed we didn't try to keep him. Think he went well at Wuss and then got brought back to Bristol.

Hopefully he can do the tighthead lock bit as we've got some decent more mobile options for the summer.

[Captainhaircut]

Coles and Langdon doubts for the weekend. Still not trained.

Furbank has a slight chance. Sleightholme even slighter.

Sounds like all would be fit for the tour.

[Puja]

That certainly puts some perspective on things.

I’d noticed him seeming to get over the try line quite a lot but I can’t say I really know what he’s about as a player. Will be interesting to see him in the summer. Glad he recovered in time.

I think because he gets around the field so well I hadn’t appreciated how big he is. I had him down as one of those slightly lightweight flanker/lock types. I don’t know whether he throws it around enough in the tight exchanges but he certainly seems to be handy in the loose.

In case anyone else is interested.

Joe BATLEY is a 28-year-old English rugby player standing at 2 m tall (6 ft 7 in) and weighing in at 125 kg (19 st 9.58 lb; 275.58 lb) , who currently plays for Bristol Bears in England as lock.

I did exactly the same - was thinking he was a Coles-sized lock given how much I've seen him run for Brizzle, went and looked him up and was astonished to see he's apparently bigger than Martin! Size isn't everything, of course, but it doesn't hurt! Be interested to see what England think of him after casting an eye over him in training.

Puja

[fivepointer]

Ive been banging the Batley drum for a while now. He was the outstanding lock in England early in the season until he got injured. If he can get back to that form i'm sure he can make the step up.

[jngf]

That certainly puts some perspective on things.

I’d noticed him seeming to get over the try line quite a lot but I can’t say I really know what he’s about as a player. Will be interesting to see him in the summer. Glad he recovered in time.

I think because he gets around the field so well I hadn’t appreciated how big he is. I had him down as one of those slightly lightweight flanker/lock types. I don’t know whether he throws it around enough in the tight exchanges but he certainly seems to be handy in the loose.

In case anyone else is interested.

Joe BATLEY is a 28-year-old English rugby player standing at 2 m tall (6 ft 7 in) and weighing in at 125 kg (19 st 9.58 lb; 275.58 lb) , who currently plays for Bristol Bears in England as lock.

I did exactly the same - was thinking he was a Coles-sized lock given how much I've seen him run for Brizzle, went and looked him up and was astonished to see he's apparently bigger than Martin! Size isn't everything, of course, but it doesn't hurt! Be interested to see what England think of him after casting an eye over him in training.

Puja

Having a big lock who can carry too would be nice

[Scrumhead]

Ive been banging the Batley drum for a while now. He was the outstanding lock in England early in the season until he got injured. If he can get back to that form i'm sure he can make the step up.

100% with you on this. He’s had some real misfortune and badly timed injuries, but I’d love to see him get a proper chance as I’d back him to take it.

Without trying to psychoanalyse it too much, people that have been through the kind of things he has often have a different mindset and are better at dealing with challenges. When you’ve beaten cancer, playing a test match probably doesn’t feel that daunting.

[TheDasher]

Sounds like we've all had the same thoughts - last season, literally every time I watched prem highlights with Bristol involved it seemed that Batley was heavily involved in so many of their tries. I remember thinking, perhaps he's a highlights player and again, he must be lightweight, I googled him several times and assumed the stats on his size were wrong as they so often are (still don't believe he's nearly 20 stone actually bet hey-ho). Very excited about him getting a chance.

I just don't understand the Isiekwe thing at all but perhaps his GPS numbers are phenomenal or something.

[Captainhaircut]

Sounds like we've all had the same thoughts - last season, literally every time I watched prem highlights with Bristol involved it seemed that Batley was heavily involved in so many of their tries. I remember thinking, perhaps he's a highlights player and again, he must be lightweight, I googled him several times and assumed the stats on his size were wrong as they so often are (still don't believe he's nearly 20 stone actually bet hey-ho). Very excited about him getting a chance.

I just don't understand the Isiekwe thing at all but perhaps his GPS numbers are phenomenal or something.

Isiekwe is a phenomenal line out forward with great athleticism around the field for his size. He just doesn’t punch his weight in the loose. I remember an interview with a few of the Sarries players (can’t remember who) where the question was something like “who would you least want to go into a battle with?” and they all quickly said Isiekwe. Might have been nothing but kind of made me think he might be a little bit meek…

Anyway, Borthers has said this:

England head coach Steve Borthwick, who needs back-up to George Ford for the July matches with Argentina and the USA, said: ‘We’ve got three brilliant fly-halves in Fin (Smith), Marcus (Smith) and George. Two of them have been selected for the Lions tour, so we’re clearly looking at who will be the next ones.
'Charlie Atkinson has been in a number of squads and training programmes and Ciaran is another of those players. (Donoghue) has got exceptional pace.
'He’s a player I’ve spoken to Lee Blackett about a number of times. He’s coached him at Bath and Lee is going to be part of the England touring party this summer.’

[Scrumhead]

Hint, hint …

I’d be happy with Donoghue travelling. He’s looked very handy for Bath and offers an interesting alternative to Atkinson.

From a medium term POV, his ability as a playmaking 15 could also be a useful asset.

[Oakboy]

I wonder how SB will deal with giving Donoghue and/or Atkinson game time. To what extent will Ford contribute in discussions? Preserving Ford's fitness must be a factor.

[FKAS]

I wonder how SB will deal with giving Donoghue and/or Atkinson game time. To what extent will Ford contribute in discussions? Preserving Ford's fitness must be a factor.

I'm hoping he uses the France XV and USA games to try out the wider squad and then go as strong as possible Vs Argentina.

Depending on how we choose to play Donoghue might make the full strength side. Bath's attack coach is joining up with England and Blackett does like a creative fullback with Bath. If Shiny Baldpatch wants to persist with a Furbank style fullback then is Donoghue the closest we'd have available? Probably.

[Danno]

We do seem to like a 10 slash 15 at the moment. I'm not complaining and Donoghue fits the mould at club level so fair enough. Hate to be the versatility dickhead but he's rapid enough to do a job on the wing in a pinch

Just maybe not at test level yet :s

Unless Atkinson is a titan in training then nah, don't really care.

[FKAS]

We do seem to like a 10 slash 15 at the moment. I'm not complaining and Donoghue fits the mould at club level so fair enough. Hate to be the versatility dickhead but he's rapid enough to do a job on the wing in a pinch

Just maybe not at test level yet :s

Unless Atkinson is a titan in training then nah, don't really care.

I don't get why versatility has become a negative thing. It's frigging useful and helps tactically and gets you selected.

Marcus Smith doesn't get deployed at 15 by Borthwick, he doesn't go on this year's Lions Tour. His versatility, though mocked by pundits and bemoaned by journos, has helped him.

No one is complaining when half the ABs backline can play multiple positions are they. Barritt and DMac play 10/15. Jordie B plays 12/15. Reiko plays 13/wing.

Donoghue being able to play 10/15 offers options tactically. If he starts at 15 with Ford at 10 we don't need a flyhalf on the bench. We can go 6-2, which might be useful against the Puma pack when we are missing several of our own. We could pick a player that changes the game plan that we'd not normally risk picking, like Steward.

Speaking of Stewart I don't want him to change position full time and play as a specialist 12 but developing some versatility so he can drop into centre and do a job when required would be blood useful. Have a 17 stone, aerial thread with a howitzer of a boot is a useful asset but playing one position makes him a very limited sub.

I really like that Borthwick has used CCS as lock cover. Can he do the Martin Corry thing and be a lock/6/8 cover option off the bench to free up the bench for other tactical options? Corry covering so much of the pack meant England could have Moody come off the bench like the nutter he was and create havoc.

Rassie has his wingers playing scrum half in games to get the ball moving quicker. A 10/15 is nothing compared to what Rassie and Brown are coming up with in SA.

[Mikey Brown]

Strange. I thought Marcus was touch and go to get selected for the Lions, imagining he might miss out as a 10 having been shunted to fullback for most of the 6 nations.

In agree with the general point though.

You get in to weird territory when versatility trumps form/ability though. For a while we thought Daly was done. His versatility is probably what kept him hanging in there, but fair play to him he took his chance again when he got it.

[Puja]

Skint Bastard has confirmed today that he's picking a 36-man squad for the tour, on the basis that he's likely to lose some along the way to Lions call-uos when there's injuries.

Puja

[Danno]

We do seem to like a 10 slash 15 at the moment. I'm not complaining and Donoghue fits the mould at club level so fair enough. Hate to be the versatility dickhead but he's rapid enough to do a job on the wing in a pinch

Just maybe not at test level yet :s

Unless Atkinson is a titan in training then nah, don't really care.

I don't get why versatility has become a negative thing. It's frigging useful and helps tactically and gets you selected.

Marcus Smith doesn't get deployed at 15 by Borthwick, he doesn't go on this year's Lions Tour. His versatility, though mocked by pundits and bemoaned by journos, has helped him.

No one is complaining when half the ABs backline can play multiple positions are they. Barritt and DMac play 10/15. Jordie B plays 12/15. Reiko plays 13/wing.

Donoghue being able to play 10/15 offers options tactically. If he starts at 15 with Ford at 10 we don't need a flyhalf on the bench. We can go 6-2, which might be useful against the Puma pack when we are missing several of our own. We could pick a player that changes the game plan that we'd not normally risk picking, like Steward.

Speaking of Stewart I don't want him to change position full time and play as a specialist 12 but developing some versatility so he can drop into centre and do a job when required would be blood useful. Have a 17 stone, aerial thread with a howitzer of a boot is a useful asset but playing one position makes him a very limited sub.

I really like that Borthwick has used CCS as lock cover. Can he do the Martin Corry thing and be a lock/6/8 cover option off the bench to free up the bench for other tactical options? Corry covering so much of the pack meant England could have Moody come off the bench like the nutter he was and create havoc.

Rassie has his wingers playing scrum half in games to get the ball moving quicker. A 10/15 is nothing compared to what Rassie and Brown are coming up with in SA.

I didn't say it (versatility) was a bad thing

That said, after almost a generation of EJ messing about with players out of position, way too much Fazzlet, excessive chat about Freeman and others shifting around in the backline lately and messing Marcus about, my tolerance is pretty low for any more dicking players about

[FKAS]

Strange. I thought Marcus was touch and go to get selected for the Lions, imagining he might miss out as a 10 having been shunted to fullback for most of the 6 nations.

In agree with the general point though.

You get in to weird territory when versatility trumps form/ability though. For a while we thought Daly was done. His versatility is probably what kept him hanging in there, but fair play to him he took his chance again when he got it.

Yeah Farrell confirmed that Ford wasn't picked despite his good form because he was up against the Fins. Marcus was selected as a utility option. Quite the turnaround for the journos who bemoaned Borthwick for hurting Marcus's international career by playing him at fullback.

[FKAS]

We do seem to like a 10 slash 15 at the moment. I'm not complaining and Donoghue fits the mould at club level so fair enough. Hate to be the versatility dickhead but he's rapid enough to do a job on the wing in a pinch

Just maybe not at test level yet :s

Unless Atkinson is a titan in training then nah, don't really care.

I don't get why versatility has become a negative thing. It's frigging useful and helps tactically and gets you selected.

Marcus Smith doesn't get deployed at 15 by Borthwick, he doesn't go on this year's Lions Tour. His versatility, though mocked by pundits and bemoaned by journos, has helped him.

No one is complaining when half the ABs backline can play multiple positions are they. Barritt and DMac play 10/15. Jordie B plays 12/15. Reiko plays 13/wing.

Donoghue being able to play 10/15 offers options tactically. If he starts at 15 with Ford at 10 we don't need a flyhalf on the bench. We can go 6-2, which might be useful against the Puma pack when we are missing several of our own. We could pick a player that changes the game plan that we'd not normally risk picking, like Steward.

Speaking of Stewart I don't want him to change position full time and play as a specialist 12 but developing some versatility so he can drop into centre and do a job when required would be blood useful. Have a 17 stone, aerial thread with a howitzer of a boot is a useful asset but playing one position makes him a very limited sub.

I really like that Borthwick has used CCS as lock cover. Can he do the Martin Corry thing and be a lock/6/8 cover option off the bench to free up the bench for other tactical options? Corry covering so much of the pack meant England could have Moody come off the bench like the nutter he was and create havoc.

Rassie has his wingers playing scrum half in games to get the ball moving quicker. A 10/15 is nothing compared to what Rassie and Brown are coming up with in SA.

I didn't say it (versatility) was a bad thing

That said, after almost a generation of EJ messing about with players out of position, way too much Fazzlet, excessive chat about Freeman and others shifting around in the backline lately and messing Marcus about, my tolerance is pretty low for any more dicking players about

I'm not a fan of the Iceman but we had success with him at 12 and it's not like there was a raft of outstanding candidates pushing for inclusion at 12. Using Manu at 12 with Slade at 13 being the alternative. Also keeping him at 12 allowed Ford to play which helped enormously.

I'd argue that it's less dicking players about and more finding ways of getting them on the field.

Daly ended up back in the squad because he could be versatile, his massive boot certainly helped and because he could link play. Having been moved around the backline during his career he'd developed a well rounded skillset.

With Freeman I like the fact he can slot into different positions and that Saints deploy him with some differently depending on the game plan. It's helped his development, playing 15 means he's good in the air and playing centre means he runs better lines than most of our other wingers etc.

[Oakboy]

I've often thought IFW would make a good SH.

[Which Tyler]

IMO - it's too early for Donoghue or Benson.
But...
They'd learn a shit-tonne from the experience, especially experiencing a tour - even if "all" they're doing is holding tackle bags, being exposed to a different training environment and different coaches.
We're also without 2 of our 3 first choice FHs (whilst a 4th is overseas, 5th is injured and 6th is called "Slade"), have an A-match and a match against USA - given that situation.... Ford > Atkinson/Bailey > Donoghue/Benson makes sense. Atkinson probably misses out due to versatility (and not really looking like he's got another gear to find - though that's a judgement call that the coaches are paid to make, not me).
Donoghue v Benson is, again, a judgement call for the coaches; and as above, Donoghue's versatility would likely count in his favour.

Given that I'm hoping Bath will be involved in the Prem final, I think that rules them out for the A-match... for that one 10. Atkinson, 23 Benson.
For Argentina 10. Ford, 23 Bailey
For USA 10. Bailey*, 23. Donoghue


*Unless he shits the bed against Argentina

[Scrumhead]

Interesting.

I agree on the whole, I’m just a bit unconvinced on Bailey mainly because I’ve barely ever seen him play 10. Whenever I have watched it’s been at 15 or more recently at 12 where he’s been fine, but no more than that.

Might be harsh, so happy to take on board your more informed viewpoint.

[Oakboy]

Furbank is not ruled out is he?

[Puja]

Furbank is not ruled out is he?

Rumours he might be pressed into service against Bordeaux this weekend, although whether that's because he's genuinely ready or because Saints are so injury-stricken is up for debate.

If he survives that, it'd solve a lot of problems.

IMO - it's too early for Donoghue or Benson.
But...
They'd learn a shit-tonne from the experience, especially experiencing a tour - even if "all" they're doing is holding tackle bags, being exposed to a different training environment and different coaches.
We're also without 2 of our 3 first choice FHs (whilst a 4th is overseas, 5th is injured and 6th is called "Slade"), have an A-match and a match against USA - given that situation.... Ford > Atkinson/Bailey > Donoghue/Benson makes sense. Atkinson probably misses out due to versatility (and not really looking like he's got another gear to find - though that's a judgement call that the coaches are paid to make, not me).
Donoghue v Benson is, again, a judgement call for the coaches; and as above, Donoghue's versatility would likely count in his favour.

Given that I'm hoping Bath will be involved in the Prem final, I think that rules them out for the A-match... for that one 10. Atkinson, 23 Benson.
For Argentina 10. Ford, 23 Bailey
For USA 10. Bailey*, 23. Donoghue


*Unless he shits the bed against Argentina

Can we really call Bailey an international option right now, considering Bath haven't picked him to start at 10 in a Prem or Euro game for well over a calendar year? (ETA - apologies, he did start the game against Benetton, but considering how weakened that side was, that's not a great thing in his favour). I absolutely get what you're saying on it being too early for Donoghue, but it's odd to champion the player that's now apparently behind him for Bath being picked ahead of him for England, isn't it?

Puja



ETA. Just spotted that I missed CaptainHaircut dropping the news on Furbank earlier:

Coles and Langdon doubts for the weekend. Still not trained.

Furbank has a slight chance. Sleightholme even slighter.

Sounds like all would be fit for the tour.

[Banquo]

You get in to weird territory when versatility trumps form/ability though.

This. As an extreme hypothetical, I'd rather have a strike running specialist 15 than a failed 10.