Approaching a Climax - Bath v Leicester

[FKAS]

Seeing all the pictures of the parade, in and out of the stadium - it looks like Bath got more people attending than Trump did for his military birthday parade!

That's a fairly low bar though.


[Mod] To Which - I like the joke, but people have asked not to have Politics references on here as they want escapism from the state of the world on the rugby board. Lol, but no more please. [/Mod]

[FKAS]

Dead link FKAS

I mean, that seems apt...

Puja

I'll try again

[Danno]

I mean, that seems apt...

Puja

https://x.com/TightFive_Rugby/status/19 ... Five_Rugby

I'll try again

Maybe I've caught WT's twitter bug, it's not loading. No worries I'll be listening to the podcast once that's out

[Puja]

I'll try again

Maybe I've caught WT's twitter bug, it's not loading. No worries I'll be listening to the podcast once that's out

Fixed it for you.

It's not a great look from Youngs, tbh. I get speaking from the heart and frustration, especially given the grief he's received for the decision and wanting to bite back, and he's not exactly wrong about the refereeing on those calls, but it's classless to gripe like that and it's an abrogation of his responsibility as a public figure in the game to talk about the ref that way.

Shit as Dickson undoubtedly was, "No ref, no game" remains a truism. If Dickson retires in the wake of widespread abuse, then the quality of refereeing is not exactly going to get better, is it?

Quite apart from anything else, you play to the ref you have. No-one is ever going to give a sealing off penalty in the last minute of a game like that, so you don't put yourself in a position where you have to rely on it! I respect his rationale for why he thought they had to kick from that position (and, granted, it was hardly the most auspicious setup), but any kick had to be contestible and allow us to win it back in the air, and that one was not. If the ref's not allowed to make a mistake and miss an offence, then surely Ben's not allowed to be anything less than perfect either?

That kind of biased griping should be kept to the changing room, not aired on social media like it's an acceptable way to talk about a referee.

Puja

[Danno]

Ah cheers Puja. X vs Twitter is still a thing two years on.

Your comments are absolutely spot on. Even if he is trying to build a brand with this podcast, Sir should be left well alone by players and fans (bar some complaints in the heat of the game imo). It's disappointing that Ben is bowing out with this.

[Banquo]

I'll try again

Maybe I've caught WT's twitter bug, it's not loading. No worries I'll be listening to the podcast once that's out

Fixed it for you.

It's not a great look from Youngs, tbh. I get speaking from the heart and frustration, especially given the grief he's received for the decision and wanting to bite back, and he's not exactly wrong about the refereeing on those calls, but it's classless to gripe like that and it's an abrogation of his responsibility as a public figure in the game to talk about the ref that way.

Shit as Dickson undoubtedly was, "No ref, no game" remains a truism. If Dickson retires in the wake of widespread abuse, then the quality of refereeing is not exactly going to get better, is it?

Quite apart from anything else, you play to the ref you have. No-one is ever going to give a sealing off penalty in the last minute of a game like that, so you don't put yourself in a position where you have to rely on it! I respect his rationale for why he thought they had to kick from that position (and, granted, it was hardly the most auspicious setup), but any kick had to be contestible and allow us to win it back in the air, and that one was not. If the ref's not allowed to make a mistake and miss an offence, then surely Ben's not allowed to be anything less than perfect either?

That kind of biased griping should be kept to the changing room, not aired on social media like it's an acceptable way to talk about a referee.

Puja

Nailed it, a bad look. He and Dan hardly look contrite, as they might well do, esp the latter

[FKAS]

Given there's plenty of villages in Leicestershire and every village has an idiot and these days the internet I dread to think the shite Dickson is copping over the game. Encouraging it isn't fair. He shouldn't have been given the game in the first place but calling out his mistakes publicly afterwards doesn't help anything. I'd say Puja is spot on and a ref who has allowed Bath to seal off all game isn't going to suddenly call that penalty in the final couple of minutes of a high stakes game. Doesn't excuse the piss poor organisation of the chase either.

[Mikey Brown]

Yeah, I don’t know how soon/impulsively this was filmed, so can certainly understand some frustration, but it’s not exactly gracious or productive.

Leicester can argue a few crucial rucks were lost at key times, Obama could have had yellow early on too - though I physically don’t see how he could have been in a better position.

Equally Montoya’s hit was quite arguably red, Muir’s knock-on was 50/50 in my eyes etc etc.

I know these guys want to win above all else, but the game is not built for analysis from every angle. There are too many variables in virtually every contact situation for a referee to consistently identify the one (of about a dozen) infringement that takes priority.

I don’t really know what you do about that without removing something fundamental from the game, but I’d say unless you have a constructive idea on it then throwing this open criticism of one of the top refs (I 100% agree there are a good few better than Dickson) isn’t offering much to the game.

[fivepointer]

Dickson isnt my favourite ref and was surprised he got the final, but like any ref he will miss things and make mistakes. The idea that any ref will provide the perfect game is really for the birds. There is simply far too much going on at a tremendous clip that just trying to keep up is insanely hard.
In any game there will be marginal calls. Thats just the way it is. Both sides could point to things that didnt go their way.
Youngs & Cole are old enough and experienced enough to know all this.

[Danno]

Obama could have had yellow early on too

Puja said no more politics

[Mikey Brown]

Obama could have had yellow early on too

Puja said no more politics

This is one typo/autocorrect that my phone absolutely refuses to let me change. The deep state really have some reach, don’t they?

[Danno]

[Oakboy]

. . . the game is not built for analysis from every angle. There are too many variables in virtually every contact situation for a referee to consistently identify the one (of about a dozen) infringement that takes priority.

This is spot-on. I suppose the debate might take into account consistency but adapting to the ref on the hoof is vital. I would say that i thought Dickson had a bad game (within his normal standards) but Bath were cannier where decisions counted.

Does anybody know what the appointment process involves? There must be a case for awarding the biggest game of the club season to the best available ref each year as an acknowledement of that status.

[Which Tyler]

[Puja]

Just used this to check on Youngs' griping. He's bang on that Bath cheat like absolute bastards (I counted no less than five separate offences by Will Stuart which has got to be some kind of a record!) to kill the ball after the turnover, although his decription of it as prime counter-attacking ball is optimistic, to put it mildly.

He is in no position to query anyone else's decision-making however, because the decision to box-kick is even worse on a rewatch. The chasers are Liebenberg and Montoya - the former is good, but if we're doing a kick where not regathering loses us the game, then we a) shouldn't be dropping it on the head of Will Muir and b) should be having at least two of OHC, Radwan, Steward, Ilione, and Liebenberg charging after it, potentially all five! If you look to your right and one of only two chasers is a hooker who's played 70 minutes in the blistering heat, then you reset to another phase and get the right people in place.

And with the terrible decision comes terrible execution - it's too long and Muir takes unopposed. If we're picking apart "Oh, it seems like we weren't playing that rule that day," then Liebenberg puts his hands past the ball when he tries to contest and would've conceded a penalty for slowing the ball if Bath had any intent of doing anything with it. Bath are also not off their feet at that breakdown in the slightest. They are at the next one, but the ref shouts at them to "arrive up" when the next "drive" is being set and, in Bath's defence, they do.

Frankly Ben, your complaining is classless and should've been kept behind closed doors. While you've got a point on the first penalty, the rest of it is 100% your poor decision-making and execution. A sorry end to a great career.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

Would love to have known K Dickson’s unvarnished thoughts on a number of B Youngs’s passes in the first 10/20 mins of the 2019 RWC final. People make mistakes…
I hate the idea that if you get slow ball you must kick as there’s no chance of you being able to create a line break etc. I hate it at any point if a match but if I were a Leicester fan I’d particularly hate it at that point of a final…

[Banquo]

Would love to have known K Dickson’s unvarnished thoughts on a number of B Youngs’s passes in the first 10/20 mins of the 2019 RWC final. People make mistakes…
I hate the idea that if you get slow ball you must kick as there’s no chance of you being able to create a line break etc. I hate it at any point if a match but if I were a Leicester fan I’d particularly hate it at that point of a final…

...sad to say, this is how badly the highly talented running young Ben Youngs has been brainwashed since his debut for England, where instinct trumped kicking.

[FKAS]

Just used this to check on Youngs' griping. He's bang on that Bath cheat like absolute bastards (I counted no less than five separate offences by Will Stuart which has got to be some kind of a record!) to kill the ball after the turnover, although his decription of it as prime counter-attacking ball is optimistic, to put it mildly.

He is in no position to query anyone else's decision-making however, because the decision to box-kick is even worse on a rewatch. The chasers are Liebenberg and Montoya - the former is good, but if we're doing a kick where not regathering loses us the game, then we a) shouldn't be dropping it on the head of Will Muir and b) should be having at least two of OHC, Radwan, Steward, Ilione, and Liebenberg charging after it, potentially all five! If you look to your right and one of only two chasers is a hooker who's played 70 minutes in the blistering heat, then you reset to another phase and get the right people in place.

And with the terrible decision comes terrible execution - it's too long and Muir takes unopposed. If we're picking apart "Oh, it seems like we weren't playing that rule that day," then Liebenberg puts his hands past the ball when he tries to contest and would've conceded a penalty for slowing the ball if Bath had any intent of doing anything with it. Bath are also not off their feet at that breakdown in the slightest. They are at the next one, but the ref shouts at them to "arrive up" when the next "drive" is being set and, in Bath's defence, they do.

Frankly Ben, your complaining is classless and should've been kept behind closed doors. While you've got a point on the first penalty, the rest of it is 100% your poor decision-making and execution. A sorry end to a great career.

Puja

Dickson allowed all manner of stupidity at the breakdown after about 20mins. He was quite strict initially and then seemed to give up. Bath played that better than Tigers. No point moaning it after the event, either find a way to milk it at the time or just accept the fact Dickson was what he was and move on.

[Which Tyler]

Whoever adapts quickest, wins

Certainly will, with Tempo being in the van there will be TMO interventions as well.

It's almost as if we'd seen these officials before

[Mellsblue]

Would love to have known K Dickson’s unvarnished thoughts on a number of B Youngs’s passes in the first 10/20 mins of the 2019 RWC final. People make mistakes…
I hate the idea that if you get slow ball you must kick as there’s no chance of you being able to create a line break etc. I hate it at any point if a match but if I were a Leicester fan I’d particularly hate it at that point of a final…

...sad to say, this is how badly the highly talented running young Ben Youngs has been brainwashed since his debut for England, where instinct trumped kicking.

Quite but Mondays are depressing enough (for those of working age ) so let’s not get in to that…

[FKAS]

Whoever adapts quickest, wins

Certainly will, with Tempo being in the van there will be TMO interventions as well.

It's almost as if we'd seen these officials before

if I was a gambling man I'd have put money on a TMO intervention leading to a yellow card.

[Puja]

Certainly will, with Tempo being in the van there will be TMO interventions as well.

It's almost as if we'd seen these officials before

if I was a gambling man I'd have put money on a TMO intervention leading to a yellow card.

Frankly, I was amazed that he didn't come in for the Obano one - not because Obano did anything wrong at all, but because it is very much his brand to make us watch 15 minutes of slo-mo replays to check a big head contact.

Puja

[Danno]

It's almost as if we'd seen these officials before

if I was a gambling man I'd have put money on a TMO intervention leading to a yellow card.

Frankly, I was amazed that he didn't come in for the Obano one - not because Obano did anything wrong at all, but because it is very much his brand to make us watch 15 minutes of slo-mo replays to check a big head contact.

Puja

I thought the same about the hit on Russell that utterly ragdolled him. "Check check Dicko" Thankfully it was obviously fine and therefore brief.

[FKAS]

It's almost as if we'd seen these officials before

if I was a gambling man I'd have put money on a TMO intervention leading to a yellow card.

Frankly, I was amazed that he didn't come in for the Obano one - not because Obano did anything wrong at all, but because it is very much his brand to make us watch 15 minutes of slo-mo replays to check a big head contact.

Puja

That would have been a completely on brand yellow card for him you're right. Would have been a completely unjust yellow card, was glad that sense was seen there.

[Which Tyler]

Frankly, I was amazed that he didn't come in for the Obano one - not because Obano did anything wrong at all, but because it is very much his brand to make us watch 15 minutes of slo-mo replays to check a big head contact.

From memory, he did chime in, but gave it the all-clear without ref needing to wait and tell everyone why he didn't need to make everyone wait.

Only worth a mention from me now because - it was actually GOOD officiating, by both Tempest and Dickson.
It almost seems worth celebrating the incident