England XV vs France XV

[Mikey Brown]

I honestly preferred Blamire, but that ship has sailed.

Why, he's only 27. His lineout accuracy has tended to be his achillies heel. If he could improve that over the summer and next season with Tigers he might find his way back in.

I'd have liked to have seen Seb Blake in the squad personally. Very good at lineout time and good around the park. Still developing a bit but he's a unit.

Simply feels like Borthwick has moved on from him. Was he already out of the picture by the end of Jones’s tenure?

I had it in my head he was going to Gloucester (maybe McGuigan?) rather than Leicester though, so maybe you’re right and he can work his way back in.

It’s not even that I think he’s a particularly complete player in comparison to Dan, but it felt like we at least saw his impact in the loose when he came on.

I just want us to (properly) try something else before George/LCD are gone and we’re left with no backup plan.

[FKAS]

I honestly preferred Blamire, but that ship has sailed.

Why, he's only 27. His lineout accuracy has tended to be his achillies heel. If he could improve that over the summer and next season with Tigers he might find his way back in.

I'd have liked to have seen Seb Blake in the squad personally. Very good at lineout time and good around the park. Still developing a bit but he's a unit.

Simply feels like Borthwick has moved on from him. Was he already out of the picture by the end of Jones’s tenure?

I had it in my head he was going to Gloucester (maybe McGuigan?) rather than Leicester though, so maybe you’re right and he can work his way back in.

It’s not even that I think he’s a particularly complete player in comparison to Dan, but it felt like we at least saw his impact in the loose when he came on.

I just want us to (properly) try something else before George/LCD are gone and we’re left with no backup plan.

Yeah I was a little disappointed how quickly Borthwick went back to the LCD and George combo. They are good players but they are both into their thirties now and LCD has had injury issues in the past. My concern is similar to yours, we could easily lose both at once and be left with no experience at hooker bar cameos from the bench.

[Banquo]

Why, he's only 27. His lineout accuracy has tended to be his achillies heel. If he could improve that over the summer and next season with Tigers he might find his way back in.

I'd have liked to have seen Seb Blake in the squad personally. Very good at lineout time and good around the park. Still developing a bit but he's a unit.

Simply feels like Borthwick has moved on from him. Was he already out of the picture by the end of Jones’s tenure?

I had it in my head he was going to Gloucester (maybe McGuigan?) rather than Leicester though, so maybe you’re right and he can work his way back in.

It’s not even that I think he’s a particularly complete player in comparison to Dan, but it felt like we at least saw his impact in the loose when he came on.

I just want us to (properly) try something else before George/LCD are gone and we’re left with no backup plan.

Yeah I was a little disappointed how quickly Borthwick went back to the LCD and George combo. They are good players but they are both into their thirties now and LCD has had injury issues in the past. My concern is similar to yours, we could easily lose both at once and be left with no experience at hooker bar cameos from the bench.

aye, there's no blame to picking George who is playing pretty well still (or LCD, though I still think his darts are inferior and that's very important obvs) .....but its an OR scenario in this case; and each position/case will look different, and that's part of what a coach is paid for. An eye to today and the future.

[Oakboy]

Is hooker a position where it is especially hard to make the step from club to international level? I'd assume (from a position of total ignorance) that throwing to the line-out could be practised to perfection but do nerves prevent that? We've not got beyond Hartley, George and LCD for hell of a long time now.

[Puja]

Is hooker a position where it is especially hard to make the step from club to international level? I'd assume (from a position of total ignorance) that throwing to the line-out could be practised to perfection but do nerves prevent that? We've not got beyond Hartley, George and LCD for hell of a long time now.

Throwing is a rote, repeatable skill, but then so is goalkicking, and you can't turn every player into Jonny Wilkinson off the tee.

The thing that worries me about Dan is his size and strength in the scrum - he's got something special around the field, but I worry whether Strictly Bigboys doesn't trust him because he wants a stronger scrum and, if that's the problem, then that's not something that can be fixed.

Puja

[R3dders]

Reasonable run out. Taught us nothing new but hopefully Borthers learnt something he should have already learnt by now… Namely Dombrandt and Slade are dreadful, Davidson should never have been picked ahead of AOF and Langdon is miles better than Dan.

Hopefully Dingwall, BCurry and Furbank are fit for the first test.

IFW had a mare. Hopefully he’s available for USA.

I actually thought both players had arguably one of their best performances to date in an England shirt. I’ve been very critical of Slade’s selection, especially in recent seasons but I genuinely thought he had a very good game and credit where credit’s due imo

The stats have Dombrandt making 3 carries in 36 minutes. Willis made 16 in 54. Think he had one decent carry and one turnover versus one knock on in a great position and the massive overrun on kick chase that almost cost us a try. I’ll not count the walk in whilst standing on the wing…

Slade just makes the wrong decision most of the time. Which is insane with his experience and talent. Couple of good touch finders (not sure Ford would have done that much worse) but other than that it was an intercept where we should have made a line break (fortunate to have penalty advantage- not sure anyone knew) and that dreadful decision where he went himself rather than passing to Quirke. On top of that, he often just shovelled the ball on without going to the line. If Dingwall, Atkinson or Ojomoh are our options at 12, then 13 really needs to be more of a runner given their distribution skills.

I thought Roebuck was good again- I really think Freeman at 13 is the way to go.

I know it's mandatory to blame dommers, but deciding there's 90 minutes in a rugby match to do so seems a bit unfair.

Spencer threw the pass behind him, there's a reason he doesn't drop those for Quins.

The stats I see show him making 7 tackles (2 of them dominant, more than anyone on the pitch) a turnover and 32 metres. I always find it odd when people compare carries - always used to be the same with Billy v. Willis was being deployed as a primary carrier, that's why he carried lots. Our play was set up for him to carry. Hence he wasn't standing on the wing for walk-ins, and has scored probably half the tries dombrandt has across a similar number of games in his career. They are totally different players.

And blaming him for the kick chase is genuinely wild.

But hey, I guess people see what they wanna see sometimes.

[Puja]

I actually thought both players had arguably one of their best performances to date in an England shirt. I’ve been very critical of Slade’s selection, especially in recent seasons but I genuinely thought he had a very good game and credit where credit’s due imo

The stats have Dombrandt making 3 carries in 36 minutes. Willis made 16 in 54. Think he had one decent carry and one turnover versus one knock on in a great position and the massive overrun on kick chase that almost cost us a try. I’ll not count the walk in whilst standing on the wing…

Slade just makes the wrong decision most of the time. Which is insane with his experience and talent. Couple of good touch finders (not sure Ford would have done that much worse) but other than that it was an intercept where we should have made a line break (fortunate to have penalty advantage- not sure anyone knew) and that dreadful decision where he went himself rather than passing to Quirke. On top of that, he often just shovelled the ball on without going to the line. If Dingwall, Atkinson or Ojomoh are our options at 12, then 13 really needs to be more of a runner given their distribution skills.

I thought Roebuck was good again- I really think Freeman at 13 is the way to go.

I know it's mandatory to blame dommers, but deciding there's 90 minutes in a rugby match to do so seems a bit unfair.

Spencer threw the pass behind him, there's a reason he doesn't drop those for Quins.

The stats I see show him making 7 tackles (2 of them dominant, more than anyone on the pitch) a turnover and 32 metres. I always find it odd when people compare carries - always used to be the same with Billy v. Willis was being deployed as a primary carrier, that's why he carried lots. Our play was set up for him to carry. Hence he wasn't standing on the wing for walk-ins, and has scored probably half the tries dombrandt has across a similar number of games in his career. They are totally different players.

And blaming him for the kick chase is genuinely wild.

But hey, I guess people see what they wanna see sometimes.

I take most of your points, but he was 100%, categorically at fault for the failure of the kick-chase that led to the non-try. For some reason, he drifted wide and pressed up too high - either he thought that Roebuck wasn't going to compete for the ball (which seems unlikely) or he thought that it was someone else's problem to cover the space behind Roebuck and that he was free to offer himself in support if Roebuck took it clean and ran forward. As it was, as soon as the Frenchman took it cleanly, he had no-one in front of him and Dombrandt was immediately out of the game.

Puja

[Oakboy]

I actually thought both players had arguably one of their best performances to date in an England shirt. I’ve been very critical of Slade’s selection, especially in recent seasons but I genuinely thought he had a very good game and credit where credit’s due imo

The stats have Dombrandt making 3 carries in 36 minutes. Willis made 16 in 54. Think he had one decent carry and one turnover versus one knock on in a great position and the massive overrun on kick chase that almost cost us a try. I’ll not count the walk in whilst standing on the wing…

Slade just makes the wrong decision most of the time. Which is insane with his experience and talent. Couple of good touch finders (not sure Ford would have done that much worse) but other than that it was an intercept where we should have made a line break (fortunate to have penalty advantage- not sure anyone knew) and that dreadful decision where he went himself rather than passing to Quirke. On top of that, he often just shovelled the ball on without going to the line. If Dingwall, Atkinson or Ojomoh are our options at 12, then 13 really needs to be more of a runner given their distribution skills.

I thought Roebuck was good again- I really think Freeman at 13 is the way to go.

I know it's mandatory to blame dommers, but deciding there's 90 minutes in a rugby match to do so seems a bit unfair.

Spencer threw the pass behind him, there's a reason he doesn't drop those for Quins.

The stats I see show him making 7 tackles (2 of them dominant, more than anyone on the pitch) a turnover and 32 metres. I always find it odd when people compare carries - always used to be the same with Billy v. Willis was being deployed as a primary carrier, that's why he carried lots. Our play was set up for him to carry. Hence he wasn't standing on the wing for walk-ins, and has scored probably half the tries dombrandt has across a similar number of games in his career. They are totally different players.

And blaming him for the kick chase is genuinely wild.

But hey, I guess people see what they wanna see sometimes.

I don't think many (any?) are anti-Dombrandt by nature. I'd argue that it's a toss-up between him and Coka being the biggest international disappointments in recent years. Dombrandt had an extended run of starts when lots of us felt Willis had an equal case for selection (at least). Dombrandt's skill-set is special and he seems to me to be a star for ten minute bursts at international level. Maybe, SB sees him as offering something extra from the bench. I doubt he will be starting many games whereas Willis now looks to be our outstanding starting 8 (well ahead of Earl, IMO).

[Mikey Brown]

Is hooker a position where it is especially hard to make the step from club to international level? I'd assume (from a position of total ignorance) that throwing to the line-out could be practised to perfection but do nerves prevent that? We've not got beyond Hartley, George and LCD for hell of a long time now.

Throwing is a rote, repeatable skill, but then so is goalkicking, and you can't turn every player into Jonny Wilkinson off the tee.

The thing that worries me about Dan is his size and strength in the scrum - he's got something special around the field, but I worry whether Strictly Bigboys doesn't trust him because he wants a stronger scrum and, if that's the problem, then that's not something that can be fixed.

Puja

I can’t comment on the scrum but is there anything to the importance of being a substitute at hooker, coming in when the game is already in motion and often changes have been made in the pack? It feels so much easier to judge a player from a starting position, and I just can’t tell how much we’re learning about Dan (or any other hooker to be honest) at this point.

[R3dders]

The stats have Dombrandt making 3 carries in 36 minutes. Willis made 16 in 54. Think he had one decent carry and one turnover versus one knock on in a great position and the massive overrun on kick chase that almost cost us a try. I’ll not count the walk in whilst standing on the wing…

Slade just makes the wrong decision most of the time. Which is insane with his experience and talent. Couple of good touch finders (not sure Ford would have done that much worse) but other than that it was an intercept where we should have made a line break (fortunate to have penalty advantage- not sure anyone knew) and that dreadful decision where he went himself rather than passing to Quirke. On top of that, he often just shovelled the ball on without going to the line. If Dingwall, Atkinson or Ojomoh are our options at 12, then 13 really needs to be more of a runner given their distribution skills.

I thought Roebuck was good again- I really think Freeman at 13 is the way to go.

I know it's mandatory to blame dommers, but deciding there's 90 minutes in a rugby match to do so seems a bit unfair.

Spencer threw the pass behind him, there's a reason he doesn't drop those for Quins.

The stats I see show him making 7 tackles (2 of them dominant, more than anyone on the pitch) a turnover and 32 metres. I always find it odd when people compare carries - always used to be the same with Billy v. Willis was being deployed as a primary carrier, that's why he carried lots. Our play was set up for him to carry. Hence he wasn't standing on the wing for walk-ins, and has scored probably half the tries dombrandt has across a similar number of games in his career. They are totally different players.

And blaming him for the kick chase is genuinely wild.

But hey, I guess people see what they wanna see sometimes.

I take most of your points, but he was 100%, categorically at fault for the failure of the kick-chase that led to the non-try. For some reason, he drifted wide and pressed up too high - either he thought that Roebuck wasn't going to compete for the ball (which seems unlikely) or he thought that it was someone else's problem to cover the space behind Roebuck and that he was free to offer himself in support if Roebuck took it clean and ran forward. As it was, as soon as the Frenchman took it cleanly, he had no-one in front of him and Dombrandt was immediately out of the game.

Puja

Its beard. Beard jumps and goes to pull the ball across to dombrandt. Looks set up to me.

It was somebody else's job - the guy who makes the tackle, but the Frenchman offloads (sneaky I know) and the chasing 6 or 7 men are all flat footed and they walk round them. If Beard gets the flick then dombrandt probably scores (although dombrandt is offside from the kick so if he had got it might well have been chalked off). If one of the other 7 men in midfield tackle then they don't break.

55.50


Who is the player to beard's right who runs to the same distance as dombrandt and then doesn't try and get back, just watches the break? Why is he not category 100% at fault, or at least 50? Ah, that's Roebuck. And Seb Atkinson does the same thing a few yards further across.

[Puja]

I take most of your points, but he was 100%, categorically at fault for the failure of the kick-chase that led to the non-try. For some reason, he drifted wide and pressed up too high - either he thought that Roebuck wasn't going to compete for the ball (which seems unlikely) or he thought that it was someone else's problem to cover the space behind Roebuck and that he was free to offer himself in support if Roebuck took it clean and ran forward. As it was, as soon as the Frenchman took it cleanly, he had no-one in front of him and Dombrandt was immediately out of the game.

Puja

Its beard. Beard jumps and goes to pull the ball across to dombrandt. Looks set up to me.

It was somebody else's job - the guy who makes the tackle, but the Frenchman offloads (sneaky I know) and the chasing 6 or 7 men are all flat footed and they walk round them. If Beard gets the flick then dombrandt probably scores (although dombrandt is offside from the kick so if he had got it might well have been chalked off). If one of the other 7 men in midfield tackle then they don't break.

55.50


Who is the player to beard's right who runs to the same distance as dombrandt and then doesn't try and get back, just watches the break? Why is he not category 100% at fault, or at least 50? Ah, that's Roebuck. And Seb Atkinson does the same thing a few yards further across.

My apologies - you are entirely right. I only saw it live and the replay angle they showed from the goal line made it look like the catcher should have been Dombrandt's man, meaning Pepper (I think?) had to step in to tackle which opened up the channel for the offload. However, on looking st the video (fixed the time-stamp on your post for you btw, so it goes straight there now), that angle is very misleading and he's very much not the player who should be responsible for covering there. You are spot on; mea culpa.

Puja

[fivepointer]

Just caught up with the game.
We played Ok for spells. Kicked too much, often poorly. Set piece went reasonably, bar 2 very poor l/o blips. We had some good launch plays but seldom put together phases to really stretch the French defence. Some of our carrying was very good.
Difficult to assess some of the performances. Willis stood out while he was on and I thought Carpenter went well. Most did some god things, maybe not enough of them.
We played the last few minutes poorly and really should have seen the game out with 5 minutes to go.
On Dan. He is a lightweight. He isnt going to hammer people in the tackle or bust through a tight defence. But he is mobile and skilful. He really has to nail his throws, though.

[Oakboy]

Just caught up with the game.
We played Ok for spells. Kicked too much, often poorly. Set piece went reasonably, bar 2 very poor l/o blips. We had some good launch plays but seldom put together phases to really stretch the French defence. Some of our carrying was very good.
Difficult to assess some of the performances. Willis stood out while he was on and I thought Carpenter went well. Most did some god things, maybe not enough of them.
We played the last few minutes poorly and really should have seen the game out with 5 minutes to go.
On Dan. He is a lightweight. He isnt going to hammer people in the tackle or bust through a tight defence. But he is mobile and skilful. He really has to nail his throws, though.

Do you have an opinion on the three stupid early penalties conceded (two by Coles and one by Atkinson, I think)? I've only watched the game live and remember shouting 'why?' at the screen.

[fivepointer]

Just caught up with the game.
We played Ok for spells. Kicked too much, often poorly. Set piece went reasonably, bar 2 very poor l/o blips. We had some good launch plays but seldom put together phases to really stretch the French defence. Some of our carrying was very good.
Difficult to assess some of the performances. Willis stood out while he was on and I thought Carpenter went well. Most did some god things, maybe not enough of them.
We played the last few minutes poorly and really should have seen the game out with 5 minutes to go.
On Dan. He is a lightweight. He isnt going to hammer people in the tackle or bust through a tight defence. But he is mobile and skilful. He really has to nail his throws, though.

Do you have an opinion on the three stupid early penalties conceded (two by Coles and one by Atkinson, I think)? I've only watched the game live and remember shouting 'why?' at the screen.

We did cough up some soft pens.

IFW really needs to be taken to task for his reckless "tackle" that deserved a red card. That was utterly stupid.

[Banquo]

Just caught up with the game.
We played Ok for spells. Kicked too much, often poorly. Set piece went reasonably, bar 2 very poor l/o blips. We had some good launch plays but seldom put together phases to really stretch the French defence. Some of our carrying was very good.
Difficult to assess some of the performances. Willis stood out while he was on and I thought Carpenter went well. Most did some god things, maybe not enough of them.
We played the last few minutes poorly and really should have seen the game out with 5 minutes to go.
On Dan. He is a lightweight. He isnt going to hammer people in the tackle or bust through a tight defence. But he is mobile and skilful. He really has to nail his throws, though.

The last quarter not helped by disarray from IFW red kkk knocking on to rearrangement compounded by 6:2 split. Tired 9 already playing badly going for 80, centre on wing then centre, back up 9 on wing with centre going to fb etc. Never seems to be really called out tbh.

Yeah, think Dans stats are exaggerated! 16st 7???

[R3dders]

I take most of your points, but he was 100%, categorically at fault for the failure of the kick-chase that led to the non-try. For some reason, he drifted wide and pressed up too high - either he thought that Roebuck wasn't going to compete for the ball (which seems unlikely) or he thought that it was someone else's problem to cover the space behind Roebuck and that he was free to offer himself in support if Roebuck took it clean and ran forward. As it was, as soon as the Frenchman took it cleanly, he had no-one in front of him and Dombrandt was immediately out of the game.

Puja

Its beard. Beard jumps and goes to pull the ball across to dombrandt. Looks set up to me.

It was somebody else's job - the guy who makes the tackle, but the Frenchman offloads (sneaky I know) and the chasing 6 or 7 men are all flat footed and they walk round them. If Beard gets the flick then dombrandt probably scores (although dombrandt is offside from the kick so if he had got it might well have been chalked off). If one of the other 7 men in midfield tackle then they don't break.

55.50


Who is the player to beard's right who runs to the same distance as dombrandt and then doesn't try and get back, just watches the break? Why is he not category 100% at fault, or at least 50? Ah, that's Roebuck. And Seb Atkinson does the same thing a few yards further across.

My apologies - you are entirely right. I only saw it live and the replay angle they showed from the goal line made it look like the catcher should have been Dombrandt's man, meaning Pepper (I think?) had to step in to tackle which opened up the channel for the offload. However, on looking st the video (fixed the time-stamp on your post for you btw, so it goes straight there now), that angle is very misleading and he's very much not the player who should be responsible for covering there. You are spot on; mea culpa.

Puja

[R3dders]

Just caught up with the game.
We played Ok for spells. Kicked too much, often poorly. Set piece went reasonably, bar 2 very poor l/o blips. We had some good launch plays but seldom put together phases to really stretch the French defence. Some of our carrying was very good.
Difficult to assess some of the performances. Willis stood out while he was on and I thought Carpenter went well. Most did some god things, maybe not enough of them.
We played the last few minutes poorly and really should have seen the game out with 5 minutes to go.
On Dan. He is a lightweight. He isnt going to hammer people in the tackle or bust through a tight defence. But he is mobile and skilful. He really has to nail his throws, though.

Do you have an opinion on the three stupid early penalties conceded (two by Coles and one by Atkinson, I think)? I've only watched the game live and remember shouting 'why?' at the screen.

We did cough up some soft pens.

IFW really needs to be taken to task for his reckless "tackle" that deserved a red card. That was utterly stupid.

Feel a bit sorry for manny really, throwing him back in after 6 months of no competitive rugby was insanity. Murley is in top form, and this would have been a good opportunity for him to redeem himself for the horrorshow in the 6n without too much pressure. Silly selection all round.

[Danno]

Do you have an opinion on the three stupid early penalties conceded (two by Coles and one by Atkinson, I think)? I've only watched the game live and remember shouting 'why?' at the screen.

We did cough up some soft pens.

IFW really needs to be taken to task for his reckless "tackle" that deserved a red card. That was utterly stupid.

Feel a bit sorry for manny really, throwing him back in after 6 months of no competitive rugby was insanity. Murley is in top form, and this would have been a good opportunity for him to redeem himself for the horrorshow in the 6n without too much pressure. Silly selection all round.

He made two (admittedly terrible) mistakes, but if you net that off against the good things he did and the fact it was his debut, I think 'horrorshow' is incredibly harsh

[R3dders]

Ah, I'm murley's biggest fan. I'd have him as the first winger on the team sheet ahead of both IFW and Freeman. In fact I'd have sleightholme on the other side and Freeman at 13, but anyway. Certainly miles ahead of the dependable but massively uninspiring Roebuck.

Cadan scored one and assisted one, but the errors he made (particularly not dotting down for the dropout) were bad enough to blot his copy book pretty badly. I just hope he gets the chance to show that he's a test player sooner rather than later, ie probably all this series now.

[Danno]

Ah, I'm murley's biggest fan. I'd have him as the first winger on the team sheet ahead of both IFW and Freeman. In fact I'd have sleightholme on the other side and Freeman at 13, but anyway. Certainly miles ahead of the dependable but massively uninspiring Roebuck.

Cadan scored one and assisted one, but the errors he made (particularly not dotting down for the dropout) were bad enough to blot his copy book pretty badly. I just hope he gets the chance to show that he's a test player sooner rather than later, ie probably all this series now.

Same here. Even without my Quins hat on, the sheer joy on his face when he gets ball in a bit of space is incredibly infectious.

[Mikey Brown]

Do you have an opinion on the three stupid early penalties conceded (two by Coles and one by Atkinson, I think)? I've only watched the game live and remember shouting 'why?' at the screen.

We did cough up some soft pens.

IFW really needs to be taken to task for his reckless "tackle" that deserved a red card. That was utterly stupid.

Feel a bit sorry for manny really, throwing him back in after 6 months of no competitive rugby was insanity. Murley is in top form, and this would have been a good opportunity for him to redeem himself for the horrorshow in the 6n without too much pressure. Silly selection all round.

I hoped it may just be Borthwick's best way of seeing if he's up to speed again before committing to taking him on tour - with Murley already on the plane - though not sure if that's really how it works.

Despite getting more and more world class with every passing day since injury, it does look like he needed to actually play some rugby before jumping back in for England. He was clearly desperate to impress, and there was some good opposition work when he had the ball, but he essentially lost it 3 times before getting red carded - and the more I see it the more lucky it feels to be orange rather than a true red.

I wonder if this situation does anything for the use of a 6:2 or is just written off as a freak scenario.

I'm a Murley fanboy but got to completely disagree with you on Roebuck. I think he's class. Maybe it's easy to look at him as similar to Steward out on the wing. Big, strong, reliable, great in the air, but he also beats defenders and keeps the ball alive. I think he's looked fantastic in his England appearances so far, and would be a good foil to a strike runner like Murley/IFW.

[Banquo]

Ah, I'm murley's biggest fan. I'd have him as the first winger on the team sheet ahead of both IFW and Freeman. In fact I'd have sleightholme on the other side and Freeman at 13, but anyway. Certainly miles ahead of the dependable but massively uninspiring Roebuck.

Cadan scored one and assisted one, but the errors he made (particularly not dotting down for the dropout) were bad enough to blot his copy book pretty badly. I just hope he gets the chance to show that he's a test player sooner rather than later, ie probably all this series now.

Quins fan perchance?
Murley a tad hard done by, but Freeman is a class act, ahead of all you mention imo. As indicated by lions selection I guess.

[FKAS]

We did cough up some soft pens.

IFW really needs to be taken to task for his reckless "tackle" that deserved a red card. That was utterly stupid.

Feel a bit sorry for manny really, throwing him back in after 6 months of no competitive rugby was insanity. Murley is in top form, and this would have been a good opportunity for him to redeem himself for the horrorshow in the 6n without too much pressure. Silly selection all round.

He made two (admittedly terrible) mistakes, but if you net that off against the good things he did and the fact it was his debut, I think 'horrorshow' is incredibly harsh

He was very good on attack and at complete panic stations every time the ball was kicked in his direction on defence. First half Steward mopped all that up, second half with Marcus at fullback there was no safety blanket and Murley looked completely lost in the backfield.

[Puja]

Do you have an opinion on the three stupid early penalties conceded (two by Coles and one by Atkinson, I think)? I've only watched the game live and remember shouting 'why?' at the screen.

We did cough up some soft pens.

IFW really needs to be taken to task for his reckless "tackle" that deserved a red card. That was utterly stupid.

Agreed, although I agree with R3dders that it was very hard putting him straight in after 6 months without a game, especially out of position on the left wing. He looked ring-rusty and desperate - it felt like his brain was trying to audition for a B&I Lions callup and he was getting more and more frustrated with himself that his body and his reactions were a split second behind where he needed them to be. The red card was a perfect example - he was set free in a one-on-one situation, didn't react or accelerate quick enough and couldn't beat his man, made a poor decision to kick and compounded it with poor execution. Frustrated at having wasted a chance to show his quality and also turning over possession, he then launches himself into trying to make "a big impact" to try and win the ball back again, and gets just about every bit of his technique wrong.

Easy to forget that he's only 22 and has only played 1.5 seasons of top-level rugby, in which he's been an unmitigated success, lauded to the high heavens, and talked about as a certain Lions tourist and probable test player, only to have this injury and the subsequent setbacks rule him almost completely out of contention. It'd be no wonder if his head wasn't on right.

Tbh, this is one situation where tackle school might be really bloody useful - get him drilled in the basics so that, in the future when he's tired/frustrated, he has good technique inculcated into him, rather than that ungainly flail we saw on Saturday.

Feel a bit sorry for manny really, throwing him back in after 6 months of no competitive rugby was insanity. Murley is in top form, and this would have been a good opportunity for him to redeem himself for the horrorshow in the 6n without too much pressure. Silly selection all round.

Having just said the above about IFW, i do understand Stilted Backselection's logic behind picking him - give him 80 minutes to knock the rust off and then he'll be in good enough nick to play against Argentina. I do agree with you that Murley was horribly unlucky (or lucky now, as he'll like be the beneficiary of the ban) - he's a tremendous prospect and I hope he'll do well in Argentina.

Puja

[SixAndAHalf]

Going back to the hooker debate - we have Kepu Tuipulotu in the pipeline who may be ready to be 3rd choice at the World Cup and then come through afterwards.

I’d also still like to see England give Barbeary a central contract to play hooker (and cover back row) - I remember seeing this on here and thinking it was a great idea but can’t recall who to credit.