Argentina tour

[fivepointer]

Seems pointless to take him for a run out against USA. Far better to bring in someone else.

[Banquo]

Feyi-Waboso cops a three game ban, reduced to two if he attends tackle school. It's a reasonable ruling, but it rules him out of both Argentina tests. Seems a waste of time to pick him for just the USA - leave him at home to have a summer of recuperation and take one of Radwan/OHC/Arundell instead.

Puja

yup

[Yorkie]

England 36-man squad for Argentina and USA tours
Forwards

Fin Baxter (Harlequins), Arthur Clark (Gloucester), Alex Coles (Northampton), Chandler Cunningham-South (Harlequins), Ben Curry (Sale), Theo Dan (Saracens), Trevor Davison (Northampton), Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins), Charlie Ewels (Bath), Jamie George (Saracens, co-captain), Joe Heyes (Leicester), Ted Hill (Bath), Nick Isiekwe (Saracens), Emmanuel Iyogun (Northampton), Curtis Langdon (Northampton), Asher Opoku-Fordjour (Sale), Guy Pepper (Bath), Bevan Rodd (Sale), Sam Underhill (Bath), Tom Willis (Saracens).

Backs

Charlie Atkinson (Gloucester), Seb Atkinson (Gloucester), Oscar Beard (Harlequins), Joe Carpenter (Sale), Immanuel Feyi-Waboso (Exeter), George Ford (Sale, co-captain), Will Muir (Bath Rugby), Cadan Murley (Harlequins), Luke Northmore (Harlequins), Max Ojomoh (Bath), Harry Randall (Bristol), Tom Roebuck (Sale), Henry Slade (Exeter), Ben Spencer (Bath), Freddie Steward (Leicester), Jack van Poortvliet (Leicester).

[FKAS]

So IFW stays in and Quirke is dropped for Randall. Can't say I'm a fan of either of those.

[fivepointer]

Dingwall misses out due to injury. Randall recovers and tours.

IFW is selected to play the USA.

Really no surprises. Pretty much what was to be expected after the weekend.

[Danno]

IFW is a ridiculous choice. It makes no sense whatsoever. These central contracts are proving to be the predicted double edged sword, there's no other reason for him to play USA

Surprised Randall has recovered so quickly, looked like he really hurt himself in the SF

[Banquo]

Dingwall misses out due to injury. Randall recovers and tours.

IFW is selected to play the USA.

Really no surprises. Pretty much what was to be expected after the weekend.

bloody shame for Dingwall. I hope Seb Atkinson steps up, but a shame.

[Mikey Brown]

Dingwall misses out due to injury. Randall recovers and tours.

IFW is selected to play the USA.

Really no surprises. Pretty much what was to be expected after the weekend.

bloody shame for Dingwall. I hope Seb Atkinson steps up, but a shame.

Yep. Feels like this was a big moment for him.

IFW move is strange. Must feel almost like game over for the Leicester pair if they’re not worth including at this stage. That’s quite a snub.

[Banquo]

Dingwall misses out due to injury. Randall recovers and tours.

IFW is selected to play the USA.

Really no surprises. Pretty much what was to be expected after the weekend.

bloody shame for Dingwall. I hope Seb Atkinson steps up, but a shame.

Yep. Feels like this was a big moment for him.

IFW move is strange. Must feel almost like game over for the Leicester pair if they’re not worth including at this stage. That’s quite a snub.

lots of odd stuff, some you sort of get, yet still feels wrong eg Ewels, Randall, Isiekwe, IFW, Slade....

[francoisfou]

Starkraving Bonkers has simply lost the plot in including IFW! (and all the other usual hangers-on mentioned above)
What are the benefits in taking him and leaving form wingers like OHC and Adam Radwan at home?
Disappointing for Dingers having done nowt wrong at all in the games he's played. Just hope he won't be forgotten come the Autumn.

[Which Tyler]

Isn't IFW there to maintain fitness, and get a match against USA... in case the Lions pick up a wing injury and want him in Aus?

[Mikey Brown]

Should that be England’s priority ahead of integrating other players who can actually play?

Maybe as a training partner he’ll be worth his involvement in the tests, but what are we learning from IFW playing the US?

[SixAndAHalf]

I’m going to go against the grain and say I don’t think it is too bad a squad and there’s a very good 23 in there. For me the big losses are Dingwall and Furbank via injury as they would have been two of the more experienced heads. I don’t mind IFW going to be around the team given he will likely be a key player in 2027.

I’m also personally gutted not to see Fasogbon as I see his potential as huge - but perhaps he’s either being managed or been given a big work on having been in camp.

Can anyone make a steel man argument for Atkinson being there - for me he sticks out a bit and I’d rather use Slade to cover 10.

My team for match 1: Baxter, George, Heyes, CCS, Coles, Hill, BCurry, Willis, JvP, Ford, Murley, SAtkinson, Ojomoh, Roebuck, Carpenter; Rodd, Langdon, AOF, Clark, Pepper, Underhill, Spencer, Slade

[Puja]

Four thoughts on why including IFW might make sense:

1) Having missed the 6N, he has had very little training time to learn Joe El-Abd's defensive system and a lot of the new attacking patterns we brought in. Bringing him to train and giving him time in camp will make it easier for him to slot in when we will need him in the AIs.

2) Having him in camp gives a benchmark for Roebuck and Murley to compete against. A lot easier for coaches to compare the relative merits of players in camp if they're all present

3) If I were Stern BeLower, then I'd want him to be doing the tackle school asap, rather than waiting until after he's been on holiday. I'd also want it done under the tutelage of one of the England coaches, rather than as a thing -to-got-out-of-the-way at Exeter's pre-season. It needs to be done well so that Saturday does not become a recurring feature, and I wouldn't blame him for not trusting Exeter to do it as well as England, given the upheaval there.

4) I wonder if it's because of how World Rugby counts the ban as well. Underhill was explicitly included in the France A training squad while he was banned, so I wonder, if we dropped IFW from the touring squad, whether he'd be allowed to count the Arg games against his ban?

Puja

[Puja]

In non-Waboso-news, it's good that BCurry's made it back fit again. Not that we're short on flankers, but he deserves to play and his experience will be really useful against Argentina. Shame about Furbank in terms of these games, but long-term I'm quite glad he's taking the summer off.

Surprised at the Randall-over-Quirke outrage on here. I know Raffi's a board darling, but what exactly has he done in the last 3 years that would deserve international selection? His squad selection this year was around hope of potential, rather than any performance. I'm not particularly thrilled about Randall and Spencer touring, but we're not flush with options and at least those two perform for their clubs.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

Fair enough on most of those actually.

Point 4 is interesting - you’d think being booted from a squad because of a ban counts as serving the ban, the idea he needs to be present in order to actually sit out these games in-person (as it were) seems ridiculous but not impossible.

Agreed on Curry and the scrumhalf options. Quirke is great in theory, but it’s been far too long for that break vs SA to count for much.

[Puja]

Fair enough on most of those actually.

Point 4 is interesting - you’d think being booted from a squad because of a ban counts as serving the ban, the idea he needs to be present in order to actually sit out these games in-person (as it were) seems ridiculous but not impossible.

Agreed on Curry and the scrumhalf options. Quirke is great in theory, but it’s been far too long for that break vs SA to count for much.

I've got not clue whether 4 is correct or not, but I was wondering, because he's available for one test, if they drop him entirely it count as him not being wanted for any of the games. I don't know - makes very little sense, but that is on brand for IRB disciplinary processes.

Puja

[Captainhaircut]

I think we can be competitive in most places but the main issue is going to be the second row. We got munched at the maul at the weekend and I’m still not sure how we change that.

Cole’s’ performance reminded me of all the things I thought of him prior to his big games in the semi and the final. Just looks so underpowered for a man of his size.

Another worry is this constant subbing Willis off after 55/60 minutes. That means we’ll likely have Dombrandt on the bench with no other number 8, which means we have to leave out one of Hill, Underhill, Pepper or Curry since CCS will likely cover lock.

I think we can broadly field a decent 23 minus the poor second row and poor bench- both things that had big impacts on the game last weekend too.

[Banquo]

I think we can be competitive in most places but the main issue is going to be the second row. We got munched at the maul at the weekend and I’m still not sure how we change that.

Cole’s’ performance reminded me of all the things I thought of him prior to his big games in the semi and the final. Just looks so underpowered for a man of his size.

Another worry is this constant subbing Willis off after 55/60 minutes. That means we’ll likely have Dombrandt on the bench with no other number 8, which means we have to leave out one of Hill, Underhill, Pepper or Curry since CCS will likely cover lock.

I think we can broadly field a decent 23 minus the poor second row and poor bench- both things that had big impacts on the game last weekend too.

Coles and CCS are interesting cases; the former is keeping weight off and benefits in athleticism, mobility and 80 min durability (and can play 6 at club level well), but is the wrong physique for tight carrying in a side needing carriers.....and CCS looks like he's timbering up to play lock, as per Lawes mid career.

Their development is a test for coaches and interesting.

[Banquo]

In non-Waboso-news, it's good that BCurry's made it back fit again. Not that we're short on flankers, but he deserves to play and his experience will be really useful against Argentina. Shame about Furbank in terms of these games, but long-term I'm quite glad he's taking the summer off.

Surprised at the Randall-over-Quirke outrage on here. I know Raffi's a board darling, but what exactly has he done in the last 3 years that would deserve international selection? His squad selection this year was around hope of potential, rather than any performance. I'm not particularly thrilled about Randall and Spencer touring, but we're not flush with options and at least those two perform for their clubs.

Puja

Randall has just looked so out of his depth, despite your reasonable point. But i wouldnt mind a bazball type punt or two

[Danno]

Another worry is this constant subbing Willis off after 55/60 minutes.

I found that really odd, he'd been fantastic, battering down just about every first up tackler and making ground up the guts. He didn't look to be tiring despite that and was doing fine in defence.

[Puja]

In non-Waboso-news, it's good that BCurry's made it back fit again. Not that we're short on flankers, but he deserves to play and his experience will be really useful against Argentina. Shame about Furbank in terms of these games, but long-term I'm quite glad he's taking the summer off.

Surprised at the Randall-over-Quirke outrage on here. I know Raffi's a board darling, but what exactly has he done in the last 3 years that would deserve international selection? His squad selection this year was around hope of potential, rather than any performance. I'm not particularly thrilled about Randall and Spencer touring, but we're not flush with options and at least those two perform for their clubs.

Puja

Randall has just looked so out of his depth, despite your reasonable point. But i wouldnt mind a bazball type punt or two

I wouldn't disagree with that at all. We've got Mitchell who's a test quality international, JVP who threatens to be on occasions, then a yawning chasm underneath - Spencer's been utterly terrible whenever he's played for England, Randall's box-kicking is so inconsistent that it rules that completely out as a tactical option, Quirke can't get nail down the starting role for Sale, Porter's... fine, I guess, but nothing special.

If we've got to pick a third choice out of those, then I opt for Randall, as he at least brings some zip and fast-paced service off the bench. But it's two bald men fighting over a comb.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

Another worry is this constant subbing Willis off after 55/60 minutes.

I found that really odd, he'd been fantastic, battering down just about every first up tackler and making ground up the guts. He didn't look to be tiring despite that and was doing fine in defence.

Yeah, you have to assume there are some stats backing up this repeated move.

Maybe he’s done enough and Borthwick wanted to see if Dombrandt was worth the run, but I’d like to see if Willis can go the distance in an Arg test.

[FKAS]

In non-Waboso-news, it's good that BCurry's made it back fit again. Not that we're short on flankers, but he deserves to play and his experience will be really useful against Argentina. Shame about Furbank in terms of these games, but long-term I'm quite glad he's taking the summer off.

Surprised at the Randall-over-Quirke outrage on here. I know Raffi's a board darling, but what exactly has he done in the last 3 years that would deserve international selection? His squad selection this year was around hope of potential, rather than any performance. I'm not particularly thrilled about Randall and Spencer touring, but we're not flush with options and at least those two perform for their clubs.

Puja

Randall has just looked so out of his depth, despite your reasonable point. But i wouldnt mind a bazball type punt or two

I wouldn't disagree with that at all. We've got Mitchell who's a test quality international, JVP who threatens to be on occasions, then a yawning chasm underneath - Spencer's been utterly terrible whenever he's played for England, Randall's box-kicking is so inconsistent that it rules that completely out as a tactical option, Quirke can't get nail down the starting role for Sale, Porter's... fine, I guess, but nothing special.

If we've got to pick a third choice out of those, then I opt for Randall, as he at least brings some zip and fast-paced service off the bench. But it's two bald men fighting over a comb.

Puja

Including whipping high over Ford's shoulder so he's got no real chance at the drop goal. That one still annoys me.

I think we've got to hold out hope that Sarries develop Bracken into a decent talent and he comes of age next season. I'd have said Friday as well but I don't think we're due to see him much before January.

[Oakboy]

I thought Quirke showed in his minutes against France (out of position) why he should have been in: strength, pace and a rugby brain. Randall only has the second attribute.