Argentina tour

[Oakboy]

I would assume Borthwick is viewing Muir as the alternative to Roebuck, strong and a massive threat in the air, with Murley and IFW the ‘x factor’ players. If you can’t see that in Murley I’m not sure what to say.

Fair enough. I don't think Murley is up to it but I'm quite happy to see SB's opinion of him confirmed or otherwise this tour. I'd be surprised if he did not start in the first test.

[Danno]

I would assume Borthwick is viewing Muir as the alternative to Roebuck, strong and a massive threat in the air, with Murley and IFW the ‘x factor’ players. If you can’t see that in Murley I’m not sure what to say.

Fair enough. I don't think Murley is up to it but I'm quite happy to see SB's opinion of him confirmed or otherwise this tour. I'd be surprised if he did not start in the first test.

Based on what? Two mistakes on international debut? And against a side considerably better and more coherent than us.

[Mikey Brown]

I would assume Borthwick is viewing Muir as the alternative to Roebuck, strong and a massive threat in the air, with Murley and IFW the ‘x factor’ players. If you can’t see that in Murley I’m not sure what to say.

Fair enough. I don't think Murley is up to it but I'm quite happy to see SB's opinion of him confirmed or otherwise this tour. I'd be surprised if he did not start in the first test.

What is it you’re seeing?

I’m horrendously biased of course, but since about 2020 he’s been one of the most lethal attacking threats in the prem, especially on the counter, gets over the ball and does a lot of the nuggety Jack Nowell/physical stuff too.

Unfortunately doesn’t have Jack Nowell’s ability in the air/backfield though and that’s where it really fell down vs Ireland. I actually tried finding that game the other day to do a rewatch, but couldn’t find it.

It’s not a strength, but I can’t say I see it exposed that often, certainly not enough to counter what he offers (at club level) elsewhere on the pitch.

How much of IFW had you seen before you were convinced he had it? They actually have a lot of similarities, though of course it’s incomparable at test level right now.

[fivepointer]

I like Murley. Think hes very good going forward and has an impressive try scoring record. The Jack Nowell comparisons arent too wide of the mark.

Wouldnt want to write him off after one cap.

He deserves the opportunity in Argentina.

[FKAS]

I like Murley. Think hes very good going forward and has an impressive try scoring record. The Jack Nowell comparisons arent too wide of the mark.

Wouldnt want to write him off after one cap.

He deserves the opportunity in Argentina.

I'd have just preferred him to get a couple of caps against some teams with less of an aerial game so that he could find his confidence at this level and get into a groove before the pressure again. Now if he struggled again (which aerially most will against this Puma team), he's going to get a lot of flak from the press and it might also knock his confidence.

[Mikey Brown]

I like Murley. Think hes very good going forward and has an impressive try scoring record. The Jack Nowell comparisons arent too wide of the mark.

Wouldnt want to write him off after one cap.

He deserves the opportunity in Argentina.

I'd have just preferred him to get a couple of caps against some teams with less of an aerial game so that he could find his confidence at this level and get into a groove before the pressure again. Now if he struggled again (which aerially most will against this Puma team), he's going to get a lot of flak from the press and it might also knock his confidence.

I would agree with that. Could have been eased in a while back, though he did have a couple of poorly timed injuries.

[Oakboy]

I would assume Borthwick is viewing Muir as the alternative to Roebuck, strong and a massive threat in the air, with Murley and IFW the ‘x factor’ players. If you can’t see that in Murley I’m not sure what to say.

Fair enough. I don't think Murley is up to it but I'm quite happy to see SB's opinion of him confirmed or otherwise this tour. I'd be surprised if he did not start in the first test.

What is it you’re seeing?

I’m horrendously biased of course, but since about 2020 he’s been one of the most lethal attacking threats in the prem, especially on the counter, gets over the ball and does a lot of the nuggety Jack Nowell/physical stuff too.

Unfortunately doesn’t have Jack Nowell’s ability in the air/backfield though and that’s where it really fell down vs Ireland. I actually tried finding that game the other day to do a rewatch, but couldn’t find it.

It’s not a strength, but I can’t say I see it exposed that often, certainly not enough to counter what he offers (at club level) elsewhere on the pitch.

How much of IFW had you seen before you were convinced he had it? They actually have a lot of similarities, though of course it’s incomparable at test level right now.

I thought IFW was special the first time I saw him for Exeter and I'd say he was one of the most natural arrivals in the step up from club to international level. In particular, I like his natural tendency to roam and get his positioning spot-on with instinctive timing. His strength in bursting through tackles is a massive attribute.

Murley is an excellent club winger. It remains to be seen if he can step up. I suspect that he can be a good taker of chances but I have doubts about him making things happen at international level. I doubt that top opposition would fear him in comparison with IFW, Freeman or Roebuck based on their performances for England already. My guess is that Radwan could become a bigger threat too.

As always, I'm happy to be proven wrong if he can take his chance. I suspect this tour is crucial for him.

[Scrumhead]

I just find it odd how entrenched your opinions are. Often on very little actual evidence. Not @jngf level but still …

In a Murley vs. Radwan debate, I think the former is ahead on more or less every facet. They have similar weaknesses, but Murley is a much better defender and I think his aerial skills are critcised largely off the back of that Ireland game.

Quins kick a lot more under Wilson than ever before and while Isgro is the primary target, that’s more of a reflection of him being freakishly good in the air, not because Murley is bad. I’d say he’s decent in the air, it’s just not a notable strength.

Has Radwan actually improved? As I see it, he’s always been a very good finisher with great feet and proper gas. His recent form is great, but I’d see that as a by product of him playing for Tigers - a simple case of a better side giving him way more opportunities to showcase those skills than he ever had with Falcons. Whether he’s truly improved defensively or aerially is definitely up for debate IMO.

I’d have had him in the squad, but Murley is the more rounded player IMO. However …

I like Murley. Think hes very good going forward and has an impressive try scoring record. The Jack Nowell comparisons arent too wide of the mark.

Wouldnt want to write him off after one cap.

He deserves the opportunity in Argentina.

I'd have just preferred him to get a couple of caps against some teams with less of an aerial game so that he could find his confidence at this level and get into a groove before the pressure again. Now if he struggled again (which aerially most will against this Puma team), he's going to get a lot of flak from the press and it might also knock his confidence.

@FKAS nailed it here. Whoever plays left wing is probably going to be up against Isgro who is particularly good in the air (despite not being particularly big). Murley obviously knows him well which might help, but actually I wonder whether it’s worth giving Muir a chance?

He’s a very good player and coming through the 7s route, he’s got less miles on the clock than most players his age. Overall, I still prefer Murley, but for this tour, I’d be go with Muir vs. Argentina and Murley vs. USA.

[Banquo]

I would assume Borthwick is viewing Muir as the alternative to Roebuck, strong and a massive threat in the air, with Murley and IFW the ‘x factor’ players. If you can’t see that in Murley I’m not sure what to say.

Muir and Roebuck do play opposite wings generally, though not sure if Muir ever appears on the right. Would require a tactical shift or a positional one. Ditto Murley and IFW as far as I know, tho IFW was shunted to the left and we saw what happened

I’d say it’s more about balance than who plays which side. If our game-plan is ruined by the scrumhalf box kicking down the left rather than right I’d say we’re in trouble.

Murley and IFW have both played both sides. It certainly appears Muir and Roebuck prefer left and right respectively, but surely this isn’t an insurmountable roadblock.

didn't say it was, I said it was a shift needed and thus not exactly like for like.

[Puja]

Muir and Roebuck do play opposite wings generally, though not sure if Muir ever appears on the right. Would require a tactical shift or a positional one. Ditto Murley and IFW as far as I know, tho IFW was shunted to the left and we saw what happened

I’d say it’s more about balance than who plays which side. If our game-plan is ruined by the scrumhalf box kicking down the left rather than right I’d say we’re in trouble.

Murley and IFW have both played both sides. It certainly appears Muir and Roebuck prefer left and right respectively, but surely this isn’t an insurmountable roadblock.

Actually last Saturday was IFW's first ever senior game at 11, according to all.rugby. Didn't go great!

I don't think England are wedded to what side each style of wing plays on, the gameplan just seems to rely on having one of each.

Puja

[Banquo]

Muir and Roebuck do play opposite wings generally, though not sure if Muir ever appears on the right. Would require a tactical shift or a positional one. Ditto Murley and IFW as far as I know, tho IFW was shunted to the left and we saw what happened

I’d say it’s more about balance than who plays which side. If our game-plan is ruined by the scrumhalf box kicking down the left rather than right I’d say we’re in trouble.

Murley and IFW have both played both sides. It certainly appears Muir and Roebuck prefer left and right respectively, but surely this isn’t an insurmountable roadblock.

Actually last Saturday was IFW's first ever senior game at 11, according to all.rugby. Didn't go great!

I don't think England are wedded to what side each style of wing plays on, the gameplan just seems to rely on having one of each.

Puja

It really does make a difference though.

[Danno]

Indeed. Keeping the 11 on the pitch would be a good start

[jngf]

Glad to see Pollock having a much better game this morning - he reminds me so much of a young Neil Back ( early to mid 90s) skillset and pace elipsing most of our other forwards but a bit underpowered - if he starts in future England tests you really do ( as in the case of Back) need to build your back row around him - for me that would mean a tough as nails grafting, big tackling 6 like Underhill or T Curry (or J Willis if only! ) and an all out big, tight ball carrier at 8 such as T Willis or ( for a bit more explosiveness and flair CCS).

You could say much the same about Ben Earl imo and I see the future for both of them as 7s but in a much more attack focussed style than the Underhill/Curry brothers template. I further don’t think you can have both Earl and Pollock together without really upsetting backrow balance and to some extent I wouldn’t necessarily field Ted Hill with either Ben Earl or Pollock on the other flank either.

Positively I think Pollock and Earl are exactly the type of ‘extra threequarter’ openside I’ve been banging on about for a good decade or so on this board so glad to see RFU appear to be finally listening

[Which Tyler]

I'm shocked that you, of all people, would favour "hard as nails" and "big" players in the backrow

[jngf]

I'm shocked that you, of all people, would favour "hard as nails" and "big" players in the backrow

at 6 big tacking (as opposed to big size per se ) and at 8 big is beautiful to the extent of the Dallaglio speed/size (Heisenberg) uncertainty principle(c)

[Puja]

TWilliams out of the Lions, but thankfully Farrell's (rightly) called up White rather than depriving us of JVP. Bullet dodged.

Puja

[FKAS]

TWilliams out of the Lions, but thankfully Farrell's (rightly) called up White rather than depriving us of JVP. Bullet dodged.

Puja

On form and with geographic travel taken into account then White is the logical selection. JGP is playing Vs Reds though so we'll find out how fit he is fairly soon.

[fivepointer]

Seb Atkinson is a player Borthwick is particularly interested in.

The 23-year-old centre has been a star performer for Gloucester, with only Saracens' number eight Tom Willis carrying over the gainline on more occasions during the Premiership's regular season.

He was filmed completing a 'bronco' fitness test in a rapid four minutes and eight seconds earlier this year, external and Borthwick says he has been breaking more records in camp with England.

"I have enjoyed how he has played for Gloucester," said the Red Roses boss.

"He has got ball distribution at 12, he is physical in defence, he's a jackal threat, it feels like he has a really good all round skillset and getting to know him, he is very mature, very calm, very confident and very self-assured.

"And he runs - he is breaking every GPS record we have got."

Borthwick names his team for the Saturday's first Test in La Plata on Thursday. The second Test takes place in San Juan the following weekend.

Dare we hope he's named at 12 tomorrow.

[Mikey Brown]

That’s quite an impressive stat. Maybe it sounds odd to say but I think he’s quite underrated by many as a ball carrier, he’s tall but not particularly bulky, but at the same time I’m always hoping to see that bit more aggression/physicality in contact if he’s to make it at test level.

The 12 shirt seems very heavily weighted towards those that can dominate contact, and that’s clearly a thing he’s been focusing on but I still think of him as a distributor first.

I really hope we can make the most of his skills.

[Danno]

I really hope we can make the most of his skills.

Indeed. We wasted enough of Lawrence's caps trying to convert him into a bosh merchant.

[Oakboy]

I have expressed doubts about Atkinson in the past but it looks to me now as if those rating him had the rights of it. He may or may not be the long-term answer at 12 but he has definitely earned the chance of a decent run in the shirt in the absence of Dingwall. Woodward will hopefully put pressure on the position soon. I have been posting on here since 2006 (intially as Dorset06) and I cannot remember a time when there were three genuine contenders. I suppose, theoretically, one could argue for Slade, Tuilagi and Farrell but not with much conviction.

[jngf]

I have expressed doubts about Atkinson in the past but it looks to me now as if those rating him had the rights of it. He may or may not be the long-term answer at 12 but he has definitely earned the chance of a decent run in the shirt in the absence of Dingwall. Woodward will hopefully put pressure on the position soon. I have been posting on here since 2006 (intially as Dorset06) and I cannot remember a time when there were three genuine contenders. I suppose, theoretically, one could argue for Slade, Tuilagi and Farrell but not with much conviction.

What about Max Ojomoh - to me looks a great test 12 prospect, especially if he has inherited that explosiveness his old man had?

[Mikey Brown]

I have expressed doubts about Atkinson in the past but it looks to me now as if those rating him had the rights of it. He may or may not be the long-term answer at 12 but he has definitely earned the chance of a decent run in the shirt in the absence of Dingwall. Woodward will hopefully put pressure on the position soon. I have been posting on here since 2006 (intially as Dorset06) and I cannot remember a time when there were three genuine contenders. I suppose, theoretically, one could argue for Slade, Tuilagi and Farrell but not with much conviction.

What about Max Ojomoh - to me looks a great test 12 prospect, especially if he has inherited that explosiveness his old man had?

To me it makes sense he’s playing more and more at 13, but I’ve not seen that much of him. Full of skill and athletic ability, but I’m not 100% on that translating to impact on the pitch yet.

Seems to really be kicking on recently though.

[Oakboy]

I have expressed doubts about Atkinson in the past but it looks to me now as if those rating him had the rights of it. He may or may not be the long-term answer at 12 but he has definitely earned the chance of a decent run in the shirt in the absence of Dingwall. Woodward will hopefully put pressure on the position soon. I have been posting on here since 2006 (intially as Dorset06) and I cannot remember a time when there were three genuine contenders. I suppose, theoretically, one could argue for Slade, Tuilagi and Farrell but not with much conviction.

What about Max Ojomoh - to me looks a great test 12 prospect, especially if he has inherited that explosiveness his old man had?

To me it makes sense he’s playing more and more at 13, but I’ve not seen that much of him. Full of skill and athletic ability, but I’m not 100% on that translating to impact on the pitch yet.

Seems to really be kicking on recently though.

What is Bath's 1st choice centre pairing if everyone is fit? Ojomoh/Lawrence??? Even if it is would it be better than Dingwall/Freeman should that be a regular Saints pick.

I'm just floating the ideal of a club pairing being available.

[Banquo]

What about Max Ojomoh - to me looks a great test 12 prospect, especially if he has inherited that explosiveness his old man had?

To me it makes sense he’s playing more and more at 13, but I’ve not seen that much of him. Full of skill and athletic ability, but I’m not 100% on that translating to impact on the pitch yet.

Seems to really be kicking on recently though.

What is Bath's 1st choice centre pairing if everyone is fit? Ojomoh/Lawrence??? Even if it is would it be better than Dingwall/Freeman should that be a regular Saints pick.

I'm just floating the ideal of a club pairing being available.

I'd have thought Redpath would be first choice at 12, but WT would know better.