Argentina tour

[Oakboy]

To me it makes sense he’s playing more and more at 13, but I’ve not seen that much of him. Full of skill and athletic ability, but I’m not 100% on that translating to impact on the pitch yet.

Seems to really be kicking on recently though.

What is Bath's 1st choice centre pairing if everyone is fit? Ojomoh/Lawrence??? Even if it is would it be better than Dingwall/Freeman should that be a regular Saints pick.

I'm just floating the ideal of a club pairing being available.

I'd have thought Redpath would be first choice at 12, but WT would know better.

Agreed. It may be then that Ojomoh is ranked 2nd choice 12 for Bath and 4th for England. Whatever, there are several decent options for 12 which is encouraging.

[Which Tyler]

It's tough to say.
On form for the second half of the season, Ojomoh had overtaken Redpath for a shirt, and the debate was "Butt or Redpath?". We'll need to see if he keeps that form and confidence going next season.
MO is certainly a bilateral player, equally comfortable in either centre berth - though I believe he prefers IC as he doesn't feel he's quick enough for OC. That may have changed as he's had more starts at OC due to Lawrence's injury.

TBH, it could well come down to a horses for courses approach.
And then factor in Butt and *Harris also available in the midfield, and even Hennessey who's at the point where he needs to be playing, and generally looks good when he does.

[Oakboy]

It's tough to say.
On form for the second half of the season, Ojomoh had overtaken Redpath for a shirt, and the debate was "Butt or Redpath?". We'll need to see if he keeps that form and confidence going next season.
MO is certainly a bilateral player, equally comfortable in either centre berth - though I believe he prefers IC as he doesn't feel he's quick enough for OC. That may have changed as he's had more starts at OC due to Lawrence's injury.

TBH, it could well come down to a horses for courses approach.
And then factor in Butt and Jones also available in the midfield, and even Hennessey who's at the point where he needs to be playing, and generally looks good when he does.

Carreras not likely to play at centre? Harris?

[Which Tyler]

Carreras?
Doubt it - has he ever played centre?
He'll be coming in as FB who can cover FH, and wing at a push

Sorry, yes, Harris not Jones - wrong aging Scot.s OC

[FKAS]

Carreras?
Doubt it - has he ever played centre?
He'll be coming in as FB who can cover FH, and wing at a push

Sorry, yes, Harris not Jones - wrong aging Scot.s OC

He did start out a winger didn't he, played there internationally and joined Glaws as a back three player. Played plenty of wing before his transformation into a 10, first with Argentina. Wonder if Bath will train with him on the wing at all, just to keep it as an option as van Graan does love a 6-2 bench split.

[Which Tyler]

I don't know if he started there, but he certainly has played wing.
But the, the question was about centre. I suggested he could cover wing before he'd cover centre

[FKAS]

I don't know if he started there, but he certainly has played wing.
But the, the question was about centre. I suggested he could cover wing before he'd cover centre

Yeah, don't recall him playing centre. He's definitely played a fair bit of wing.

[Mikey Brown]

Dare I ask if anyone even remembers why you’re trying to work out if Carreras has played centre?

I’d love to know what it is that Slade is offering that is keeping him there. The ‘wise, old defensive game reader’ thing only seems occasionally true. The left boot is still handy but that can’t be enough. I know Atkinson is new but he’s got Ford alongside him already, give him a threat to the line.

Will we really get much from looking at Beard/Ojomoh for one game vs the US?

[Which Tyler]

Dare I ask if anyone even remembers why you’re trying to work out if Carreras has played centre?

I’d love to know what it is that Slade is offering that is keeping him there. The ‘wise, old defensive game reader’ thing only seems occasionally true. The left boot is still handy but that can’t be enough. I know Atkinson is new but he’s got Ford alongside him already, give him a threat to the line.

Will we really get much from looking at Beard/Ojomoh for one game vs the US?

You can ask - but it only started this afternoon, my memory isn't that bad (yet).
It was Dors' suggestion that Bath would be trying to fit Carreras in at centre, rather then 2 of Lawrence, Ojomoh, Redpath, Harris and Butt

[Mikey Brown]

Dare I ask if anyone even remembers why you’re trying to work out if Carreras has played centre?

I’d love to know what it is that Slade is offering that is keeping him there. The ‘wise, old defensive game reader’ thing only seems occasionally true. The left boot is still handy but that can’t be enough. I know Atkinson is new but he’s got Ford alongside him already, give him a threat to the line.

Will we really get much from looking at Beard/Ojomoh for one game vs the US?

You can ask - but it only started this afternoon, my memory isn't that bad (yet).
It was Dors' suggestion that Bath would be trying to fit Carreras in at centre, rather then 2 of Lawrence, Ojomoh, Redpath, Harris and Butt

I mean I know why, but I was more asking… why?

I know I’m far from innocent in having pointless, drawn out conversations on here, but still.

[Oakboy]

Dare I ask if anyone even remembers why you’re trying to work out if Carreras has played centre?

I’d love to know what it is that Slade is offering that is keeping him there. The ‘wise, old defensive game reader’ thing only seems occasionally true. The left boot is still handy but that can’t be enough. I know Atkinson is new but he’s got Ford alongside him already, give him a threat to the line.

Will we really get much from looking at Beard/Ojomoh for one game vs the US?

You can ask - but it only started this afternoon, my memory isn't that bad (yet).
It was Dors' suggestion that Bath would be trying to fit Carreras in at centre, rather then 2 of Lawrence, Ojomoh, Redpath, Harris and Butt

I mean I know why, but I was more asking… why?

I know I’m far from innocent in having pointless, drawn out conversations on here, but still.

I was just trying to work out Ojomoh's ranking at 12 at Bath. The Carreras question was purely a gap in my knowledge, subsequently dealt with. Ojomoh and Lawrence are not 1st choice 12s for their clubs - just as Freeman is not 1st choice at 13 for Saints. That does not prevent consideration for the relevant shirts but it does not help their international causes either. Of course, the plot thickens in Ojomoh's case if he is considered for 13 - in direct competition with Lawrence, his clubmate.

This positional dilemma for players must be difficult for some of them. Has Marcus destroyed his international future by agreeing to play at FB or enhanced it? CCS was starting some matches at 6 but is he now just bench cover for lock? Is Earl's international future enhanced by versatility or would he better to stick to one position?

[Puja]

You can ask - but it only started this afternoon, my memory isn't that bad (yet).
It was Dors' suggestion that Bath would be trying to fit Carreras in at centre, rather then 2 of Lawrence, Ojomoh, Redpath, Harris and Butt

I mean I know why, but I was more asking… why?

I know I’m far from innocent in having pointless, drawn out conversations on here, but still.

I was just trying to work out Ojomoh's ranking at 12 at Bath. The Carreras question was purely a gap in my knowledge, subsequently dealt with. Ojomoh and Lawrence are not 1st choice 12s for their clubs - just as Freeman is not 1st choice at 13 for Saints. That does not prevent consideration for the relevant shirts but it does not help their international causes either. Of course, the plot thickens in Ojomoh's case if he is considered for 13 - in direct competition with Lawrence, his clubmate.

This positional dilemma for players must be difficult for some of them. Has Marcus destroyed his international future by agreeing to play at FB or enhanced it? CCS was starting some matches at 6 but is he now just bench cover for lock? Is Earl's international future enhanced by versatility or would he better to stick to one position?

Interesting questions. I'd say that CCS's delayed second season syndrome and his form over the last year would leave him struggling to get into the XXIII as a pure 6 (hells, it's left him struggling to get into the XV for Quins), so the versatility is helping him. MSmith's ability to move to 15 has definitely cost him his England starting shirt, but that is more about FSmith getting a shot and grabbing it with both hands - the move to 15 may have opened the door there, but it feels like it would only have been a matter of time even if he hadn't shifted (with Marcus going to #22 or even just completely out of the XXIII if he'd said 10 or nothing). Ford is demonstrating the price of being a specialist at present. He is a better 10 than MSmith and Fazlet on current form, but the Lions haven't picked him for three tours because they couldn't carry a third pure 10 in a tight squad, and for England it's always going to count against him for bench spots.

Earl is the interesting one. I think I'm right in saying that the Lions brought him on at centre to replace Aki, before they called for Ringrose off the bench. I think he could really make a go of this centre thing if he concentrated on it, and gods know his route to more caps is less congested at centre than it is in the back row. However, very much like my argument about AOF being asked to switch sides, there is only so much training time in a week - do we want him concentrating on training 100% to be the bench number 8 he can be or is he better being versatile and spending 70% training 8 skills and 30% training 12 skills, or will that just make him average in both?

Puja


PS. Also, Ojomoh is behind Butt for Bath. Everyone knows this to be true [/s]

[Danno]

Surely Butt is in the rear?

[Puja]

Surely Butt is in the rear?

[appreciative clapping - wait... that sounds worse than intended in a Butts context. Let's go with "polite applause"]

I feel like there's a joke to be made there about Redpath being at the front but only for a few days each month, but thankfully I'm too good a person to make it.

Puja

[Danno]

dude

[Which Tyler]

Ojomoh and Lawrence are not 1st choice 12s for their clubs - just as Freeman is not 1st choice at 13 for Saints.

Touch of the false equivalence there - given that the conclusion was that Ojomoh probably IS first choice 12 for his club; and has played 95% of his rugby in A centre shirt, 65% of them at IC - whilst Freeman has played 11% of his rugby in A centre shirt.

The question has never been "Is Freeman first choice OC for his club" - because the answer is and always has been "clearly not, are you mad?"
The question has kinda been "Has Freeman played OC enough for his club to be a viable option there for England" - for which answers vary (and IMO, the answer is "no - at least until he's had the equivalent of a full season there, so 20-25 starts").
The other valid question has been "Is OC Freeman's position of best fit" - for which answer vary significantly.
I don't recall anyone ever claiming that Lawrence is, or should be, first choice IC for Bath or England (and if anyone has claimed the latter, it would only be "as a holding pattern until a youngster matures and he can move out and challenge for the 13 shirt).

[Oakboy]

Ojomoh and Lawrence are not 1st choice 12s for their clubs - just as Freeman is not 1st choice at 13 for Saints.

Touch of the false equivalence there - given that the conclusion was that Ojomoh probably IS first choice 12 for his club; and has played 95% of his rugby in A centre shirt, 65% of them at IC - whilst Freeman has played 11% of his rugby in A centre shirt.

The question has never been "Is Freeman first choice OC for his club" - because the answer is and always has been "clearly not, are you mad?"
The question has kinda been "Has Freeman played OC enough for his club to be a viable option there for England" - for which answers vary (and IMO, the answer is "no - at least until he's had the equivalent of a full season there, so 20-25 starts").
The other valid question has been "Is OC Freeman's position of best fit" - for which answer vary significantly.
I don't recall anyone ever claiming that Lawrence is, or should be, first choice IC for Bath or England (and if anyone has claimed the latter, it would only be "as a holding pattern until a youngster matures and he can move out and challenge for the 13 shirt).

I still say that the best thing about this debate is that we can have one. There are multiple options for both centre shirts and, so far, nobody has made a substantial claim.

In try-scoring terms I still think Freeman is the best bet at OC and, to an extent, where he scores tries as a winger leads me to that preference. IMO, he is the only certain selection in the back line. Others, Mitchell, Fin Smith, IFW and Furbank, are close. No centre is a certainty. But, we are at the stage where there ARE lots of choices for most positions - including the centres at long last.

[Banquo]

Ojomoh and Lawrence are not 1st choice 12s for their clubs - just as Freeman is not 1st choice at 13 for Saints.

Touch of the false equivalence there - given that the conclusion was that Ojomoh probably IS first choice 12 for his club; and has played 95% of his rugby in A centre shirt, 65% of them at IC - whilst Freeman has played 11% of his rugby in A centre shirt.

The question has never been "Is Freeman first choice OC for his club" - because the answer is and always has been "clearly not, are you mad?"
The question has kinda been "Has Freeman played OC enough for his club to be a viable option there for England" - for which answers vary (and IMO, the answer is "no - at least until he's had the equivalent of a full season there, so 20-25 starts").
The other valid question has been "Is OC Freeman's position of best fit" - for which answer vary significantly.
I don't recall anyone ever claiming that Lawrence is, or should be, first choice IC for Bath or England (and if anyone has claimed the latter, it would only be "as a holding pattern until a youngster matures and he can move out and challenge for the 13 shirt).

I still say that the best thing about this debate is that we can have one. There are multiple options for both centre shirts and, so far, nobody has made a substantial claim.

In try-scoring terms I still think Freeman is the best bet at OC and, to an extent, where he scores tries as a winger leads me to that preference. IMO, he is the only certain selection in the back line. Others, Mitchell, Fin Smith, IFW and Furbank, are close. No centre is a certainty. But, we are at the stage where there ARE lots of choices for most positions - including the centres at long last.

Mitchell is a cert, no-one else is that close; I'd say Fin Smith is too, tho being pushed hard by Ford and t'other Smith. Freeman somewhere for sure. Furbank needs to show some form, and indeed better form than pre injury. Still no idea on best midfield- which unfortunately means no-one is actually begging to be selected. Gloomy I know.

[FKAS]

Touch of the false equivalence there - given that the conclusion was that Ojomoh probably IS first choice 12 for his club; and has played 95% of his rugby in A centre shirt, 65% of them at IC - whilst Freeman has played 11% of his rugby in A centre shirt.

The question has never been "Is Freeman first choice OC for his club" - because the answer is and always has been "clearly not, are you mad?"
The question has kinda been "Has Freeman played OC enough for his club to be a viable option there for England" - for which answers vary (and IMO, the answer is "no - at least until he's had the equivalent of a full season there, so 20-25 starts").
The other valid question has been "Is OC Freeman's position of best fit" - for which answer vary significantly.
I don't recall anyone ever claiming that Lawrence is, or should be, first choice IC for Bath or England (and if anyone has claimed the latter, it would only be "as a holding pattern until a youngster matures and he can move out and challenge for the 13 shirt).

I still say that the best thing about this debate is that we can have one. There are multiple options for both centre shirts and, so far, nobody has made a substantial claim.

In try-scoring terms I still think Freeman is the best bet at OC and, to an extent, where he scores tries as a winger leads me to that preference. IMO, he is the only certain selection in the back line. Others, Mitchell, Fin Smith, IFW and Furbank, are close. No centre is a certainty. But, we are at the stage where there ARE lots of choices for most positions - including the centres at long last.

Mitchell is a cert, no-one else is that close; I'd say Fin Smith is too, tho being pushed hard by Ford and t'other Smith. Freeman somewhere for sure. Furbank needs to show some form, and indeed better form than pre injury. Still no idea on best midfield- which unfortunately means no-one is actually begging to be selected. Gloomy I know.

If everyone is fit I'd expect Borthwick to select;

Genge, ?, Stuart
Itoje, ?
?, ?, ?
Mitchell, F Smith
Dingwall, Lawrence
IFW, Furbank, Freeman

He seems to like shuffling his pack but those backs seem to be the go to options if all are available.