Argentina vs England first test - Sat 8.40pm

[Scrumhead]

Excellent summary @fivepointer. Not really anything to add there.

Professional is the perfect word. We got the job done.

[Banquo]

That was a thoroughly professional performance and a really good result. Thought George led the side very well, Heyes delivered his best in an England shirt, Atkinson looked the part, Willis put in a barnstorming effort and Ford underlined his sheer class.

A very satisfying nights work.

Yup, everyone can be pretty happy with both performance and result. Muir looked absolutely at home.

[R3dders]

17 tackles from Atkinson, reckon that gives him a run of games.

Would just love to see another 13 outside him.

[Which Tyler]

I think everyone stood up well in defence, and only really Spencer and Slade being anonymous in attack. Everyone else did "quite well" at worst, with a few (Roebuck, Pepper, George, Willis, Ford) being properly good.

I'd be happy to see that as Spencer & Slade's last game in an England shirt. But then, I'd have happily said that a full year ago as well.

Atkinson, Muir and Murley looked at home at this level

[Captainhaircut]

17 tackles from Atkinson, reckon that gives him a run of games.

Would just love to see another 13 outside him.

I’ll keep banging the drum re Freeman 13. With the excellence of the two wingers tonight plus Murley off the bench plus IFW and Sleightholme missing plus Arundell, Radwan, OHC, Elliott and Brown-Bampoe sat at home, we have to use him there. I think he’d be electric outside Atkinson.

Think we’re starting to build some decent depth. Still not sure at lock, scrum half still an issue and not convinced we’ve landed on full back properly either. Hooker another concern as not convinced by Dan. Overall, starting to look like we might be on to something…

[Banquo]

17 tackles from Atkinson, reckon that gives him a run of games.

Would just love to see another 13 outside him.

I’ll keep banging the drum re Freeman 13. With the excellence of the two wingers tonight plus Murley off the bench plus IFW and Sleightholme missing plus Arundell, Radwan, OHC, Elliott and Brown-Bampoe sat at home, we have to use him there. I think he’d be electric outside Atkinson.

Think we’re starting to build some decent depth. Still not sure at lock, scrum half still an issue and not convinced we’ve landed on full back properly either. Hooker another concern as not convinced by Dan. Overall, starting to look like we might be on to something…

Until and unless he gets a good run for Saints at 13, feels like a pipe dream, much as I think he could do a job there. Plenty have seen and talked about his potential there, and with Dingwall at 12 at club level at least he could thrive…. But it has to happen first

[Captainhaircut]

17 tackles from Atkinson, reckon that gives him a run of games.

Would just love to see another 13 outside him.

I’ll keep banging the drum re Freeman 13. With the excellence of the two wingers tonight plus Murley off the bench plus IFW and Sleightholme missing plus Arundell, Radwan, OHC, Elliott and Brown-Bampoe sat at home, we have to use him there. I think he’d be electric outside Atkinson.

Think we’re starting to build some decent depth. Still not sure at lock, scrum half still an issue and not convinced we’ve landed on full back properly either. Hooker another concern as not convinced by Dan. Overall, starting to look like we might be on to something…

Until and unless he gets a good run for Saints at 13, feels like a pipe dream, much as I think he could do a job there. Plenty have seen and talked about his potential there, and with Dingwall at 12 at club level at least he could thrive…. But it has to happen first

Hopefully they do it anyway with sleightholme, Hendy and Furbank fit plus Odendaal leaving but we really need to force their hands and just pick him there and commit to it.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Good fun that! Our physicality at times was simply brutal! Hats off to the team! Front row were excellent! Special note to Heyes! Backrow too were very good. Willis just stepping up and up and up. Good performances across the backline. Spencer will get some stick but he was much better today. Some of his ball speed and accuracy was bang on!

Really liked a lot of what I say today.

Apart from Gardner. He was absolute gash! Loved George’s handling of him. Asked for a theme and made him look like a right twat!

[Banquo]

I’ll keep banging the drum re Freeman 13. With the excellence of the two wingers tonight plus Murley off the bench plus IFW and Sleightholme missing plus Arundell, Radwan, OHC, Elliott and Brown-Bampoe sat at home, we have to use him there. I think he’d be electric outside Atkinson.

Think we’re starting to build some decent depth. Still not sure at lock, scrum half still an issue and not convinced we’ve landed on full back properly either. Hooker another concern as not convinced by Dan. Overall, starting to look like we might be on to something…

Until and unless he gets a good run for Saints at 13, feels like a pipe dream, much as I think he could do a job there. Plenty have seen and talked about his potential there, and with Dingwall at 12 at club level at least he could thrive…. But it has to happen first

Hopefully they do it anyway with sleightholme, Hendy and Furbank fit plus Odendaal leaving but we really need to force their hands and just pick him there and commit to it.

Who is ‘we’? England via central contract pressure?

[Mikey Brown]

I’ll keep banging the drum re Freeman 13. With the excellence of the two wingers tonight plus Murley off the bench plus IFW and Sleightholme missing plus Arundell, Radwan, OHC, Elliott and Brown-Bampoe sat at home, we have to use him there. I think he’d be electric outside Atkinson.

Think we’re starting to build some decent depth. Still not sure at lock, scrum half still an issue and not convinced we’ve landed on full back properly either. Hooker another concern as not convinced by Dan. Overall, starting to look like we might be on to something…

Until and unless he gets a good run for Saints at 13, feels like a pipe dream, much as I think he could do a job there. Plenty have seen and talked about his potential there, and with Dingwall at 12 at club level at least he could thrive…. But it has to happen first

Hopefully they do it anyway with sleightholme, Hendy and Furbank fit plus Odendaal leaving but we really need to force their hands and just pick him there and commit to it.

Yep. That’s the dream. But until then I think he is realistically just 13 cover within the 23.

He got that game there vs Wales, so clearly SB has some interest, but he’s got to comfortable enough there to be trusted in defence against the best and not just be wasting all the quality he offers in attack as a wing.

[Galfon]

Don't know what it is about these Arg. tours but they seem to bring more progress to the Eng. squad than anything - maybe it's the Lions tour at same time giving the next wave a real shot, and old heads more responsibility, and the different environment.

Anyhoo the beeb stats show a big defensive effort:
( didn't see much of match )

FT: Argentina 12-35 England
Possession: 59%-41%
Carries: 149-99
Line breaks: 6-3
Turnovers won: 5-5
Penalties conceded: 6-6
Tackles made: 102-202

esp. to Nil a team at HT in top form, at home.
El-Abd must be doing something right, not sure how Seafront Busterminus reached that decision but he will be pleased with the progress ( helped by French slippy-fingers along the wsy )

[Danno]

The defence was great, especially not to concede a single point while down to 14, then 13. And only 6 pens is almost unheard of for an England team in the modern era.

I wonder how much of the second half was player led. It was like a different team and I'm not sure a coach team talk in the break gets you 29 points in a half very often.

Subbing Tom Willis continues to irritate me. Best player on the pitch, no sign of slowing down but he comes off for tits for hands at 60mins regardless

[Puja]

Good news - the dominant 16+ point win has moved us above them in the rankings and, because we're away from home, even if Argentina do the same to us next week, we'll still be fifth, with a good gap over them and Scotland. They've obviously got all of the Rugby Championship to come where it's possible for them to pick up big points, but the chances of us finishing the year behind 2 of Arg/Sco/Aus, and thus slipping out of the top ranking bracket for the RWC draw, are now quite slim.

Tactically - Borthwick is yet to excite me, or show me that he was the right man for the job 2 years ago. Whilst he did enough in the RWC23 to get to this point, I don't think I'd be renewing his contract from here if I were the RFU. But all of that is a "I wouldn't start from here" - which isn't terribly useful.
Just having a quick look, and even with the good results in this year's 6N, he's up to 53% win ratio, sitting between Andy Robinson and Brian Ashton in the table

Feeling any better now after today? He's up to 56% now.

Puja

[Danno]

Feeling any better now after today? He's up to 56% now.

Puja

That's certainly a uhh.. bar.

[Puja]

Feeling any better now after today? He's up to 56% now.

Puja

That's certainly a uhh.. bar.

I was more being sardonic about the usefulness of the winning percentage versus looking at the current form of 5/6 this year and general appearance of building something, than actually being serious about 56% being good.

Puja

[Danno]

Feeling any better now after today? He's up to 56% now.

Puja

That's certainly a uhh.. bar.

I was more being sardonic about the usefulness of the winning percentage versus looking at the current form of 5/6 this year and general appearance of building something, than actually being serious about 56% being good.

Puja

I had my tongue firmly in cheek as well you fiend

[Scrumhead]

The defence was great, especially not to concede a single point while down to 14, then 13. And only 6 pens is almost unheard of for an England team in the modern era.

I wonder how much of the second half was player led. It was like a different team and I'm not sure a coach team talk in the break gets you 29 points in a half very often.

Subbing Tom Willis continues to irritate me. Best player on the pitch, no sign of slowing down but he comes off for tits for hands at 60mins regardless

I think it was mostly a case having the ball in the second half rather than any major change in approach, player led or otherwise.

In the first half we barely had any possession in their half and when we did, we looked decent. Also, we spent 15mins or so a man down, that’s always going to be a limitation on ambitious rugby.

In the second half, we had possession in the right part of the pitch and a full complement of players and we were clinically efficient.

I think we’re always exceptionally critical of England without recognising that the other team is trying very hard to beat us. Argentina were always going to come out swinging and try to dominate. We dealt with it very well and by 50mins, they were psychologically beaten.

One of the most pleasing things for me was that we didn’t take our foot of the gas and try to contain them when we had the lead. The did briefly threaten a comeback and I was worried we might fall back into the bad habit where we stop playing in the final quarter. I loved the fact that we were still looking for another score right at the death. More of that please boys.

[Oakboy]

The defence was great, especially not to concede a single point while down to 14, then 13. And only 6 pens is almost unheard of for an England team in the modern era.

I wonder how much of the second half was player led. It was like a different team and I'm not sure a coach team talk in the break gets you 29 points in a half very often.

Subbing Tom Willis continues to irritate me. Best player on the pitch, no sign of slowing down but he comes off for tits for hands at 60mins regardless

I'm not sure what your second sentence says about that ref who waved a yellow for too many penalties. Maybe he was right and saved the game. Or, somewhat more likely, the two Georges reacted well and showed excellent leadership.

Nobody has mentioned Ewels being missed. Does that make CCS a success at lock?

[Scrumhead]

I thought Ewels came back on didn’t he?

[Which Tyler]

Feeling any better now after today? He's up to 56% now.

A little, but it's a flash in the pan, and we've had those before, and then reverted to grinding out losses.
Win percentage is merely a point of interest, and not all of the nuance that exists

[fivepointer]

Some impressive numbers here - https://www.englandrugby.com/fixtures-a ... land#stats

Atkinson and Willis with 21 tackles. No misses. George made 22.

[Which Tyler]

One thing I want to add, about the difference in England at half time...

First half, it looked to me that Spencer and Ford just weren't playing off each other well - not in terms of decision making, but in that Ford wasn't standing where Spencer was expecting him to be, and Spencer was putting the ball where Ford wanted it. That slight disconnect that meant Ford was losing momentum as the ball arrived, to catch a ball slightly behind him, or uncomfortably high etc, taking away his time to do anything with it.


Second half, that didn't seem to be an issue at all, and I wonder if the two of them had a chat about exactly that at HT.

JvP has obviously played with Ford a lot more at club level, and didn't seem to have that problem.


Which also makes me wonder if I was harsh on Spencer last night, seeing what I expected to see in the first half, and then just going with my bias.

[Which Tyler]

A further note on penalties, only 6, with Gardner on the whistle, and at least 2 of the penalties given being more to do with a fevered imagination, than happenings on the pitch (Atkinson onside and Slade(?) not being swallowed by the ground on arrival).
That's seriously impressive discipline by the team, and seriously good ref-management by the 2 captains.

[Scrumhead]

Feeling any better now after today? He's up to 56% now.

A little, but it's a flash in the pan, and we've had those before, and then reverted to grinding out losses.
Win percentage is merely a point of interest, and not all of the nuance that exists

This may be true but the win’s not even 24hrs old, let’s enjoy the moment/performance.

Argentina changing their half backs from the Lions game was a poor decision and I’m not sure whether it was complacency or a desire to experiment? Perhaps if Albornoz had played they might have scored some points when they were on top in the first half.

Anyway, I’d expect Albornoz to be back next week and they’ll definitely be fired up.

It’s a big IF, but if we can back up last night’s performance, we definitely have a chance of a series win which would be a huge result in the context of their recent form and our Lions absentees.

[Scrumhead]

A further note on penalties, only 6, with Gardner on the whistle, and at least 2 of the penalties given being more to do with a fevered imagination, than happenings on the pitch (Atkinson onside and Slade(?) not being swallowed by the ground on arrival).
That's seriously impressive discipline by the team, and seriously good ref-management by the 2 captains.

He was very harsh on us in the first half. I thought that reversed a little in the second half. Nothing they could be hugely aggrieved with, but similar kind of nitpicking.