Argentina vs England first test - Sat 8.40pm

[Which Tyler]

This may be true but the win’s not even 24hrs old, let’s enjoy the moment/performance.

My apologies if it came across that way, I'm not down on last night's win. Im down on 24 months of Borthwick as head coach.

I'm hoping this is him/us turning a corner and proving me wrong, I'm just also noting that I've had that hope before.

[Banquo]

A further note on penalties, only 6, with Gardner on the whistle, and at least 2 of the penalties given being more to do with a fevered imagination, than happenings on the pitch (Atkinson onside and Slade(?) not being swallowed by the ground on arrival).
That's seriously impressive discipline by the team, and seriously good ref-management by the 2 captains.

Atkinsons yellow was just plain bizarre

[Banquo]

This may be true but the win’s not even 24hrs old, let’s enjoy the moment/performance.

My apologies if it came across that way, I'm not down on last night's win. Im down on 24 months of Borthwick as head coach.

I'm hoping this is him/us turning a corner and proving me wrong, I'm just also noting that I've had that hope before.

I’m not a fan, and it’s taken longer than ideal, but it does feel better somehow. The reversion to stats based rugby is just around the corner I always feel tho.

[Oakboy]

This may be true but the win’s not even 24hrs old, let’s enjoy the moment/performance.

My apologies if it came across that way, I'm not down on last night's win. Im down on 24 months of Borthwick as head coach.

I'm hoping this is him/us turning a corner and proving me wrong, I'm just also noting that I've had that hope before.

I’m not a fan, and it’s taken longer than ideal, but it does feel better somehow. The reversion to stats based rugby is just around the corner I always feel tho.

Might the temporary assistant coaches have more positive thoughts on how the game should be played? Yesterday's transformation at HT is a fair indicator that messages were of quality content, well communicated.

[Cameo]

This may be coloured by the fact that I watched the full first 60 mins then only half watched the rest, but I think the thing about England that is scary for opponents is the defence. It seems you have a chance of getting a long range try against them, but if you are stopped, you are back to square one or worse. And they barely seem to give up penalties which is good in itself but also means no free plays.

[twitchy]

Fan of this.

[Puja]

This may be true but the win’s not even 24hrs old, let’s enjoy the moment/performance.

My apologies if it came across that way, I'm not down on last night's win. Im down on 24 months of Borthwick as head coach.

I'm hoping this is him/us turning a corner and proving me wrong, I'm just also noting that I've had that hope before.

One could argue that the corner was turned against France, and this was further evidence of it not being a flash in the pan.


On a very controversial note that might get me cancelled, I... actually thought Gardner had a decent game as referee. Yes, SAtkinson's yellow was clearly arrant nonsense, but apart from that, I thought he got a good percentage of decisions correct and his communication helped both teams stay on his right side and have a good second half. In fact, even the terrible yellow meant that England then made sure they weren't caught offside for the rest of the game, whereas they'd spent the entirety of those initial Argentine attacks a foot in front of the back foot, so it's an ill wind that blows no good!

Puja

[Scrumhead]

Gardner frustrated me with a couple of decisions but overall, I thought he was pretty good.

I think @Puja makes a good point re. adapting to the ref. Sometimes in rugby you need to offend to show you can learn from your wrongdoing. If you can demonstrate you’re actively listening to a ref, it usually works well.

[fivepointer]

He was fine. Every game will throw up the odd bad call but Gardner didnt make many of those.

Credit Jamie George with the way he interacted with him. Smart work there, I thought.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Some impressive numbers here - https://www.englandrugby.com/fixtures-a ... land#stats

Atkinson and Willis with 21 tackles. No misses. George made 22.

Atkinson definitely missed one in the first half, when he shot out like a rocket.

[Banquo]

Some impressive numbers here - https://www.englandrugby.com/fixtures-a ... land#stats

Atkinson and Willis with 21 tackles. No misses. George made 22.

Atkinson definitely missed one in the first half, when he shot out like a rocket.

Yup. But had a decent game. Dingwall will be well hacked off!!

[Scrumhead]

It’s only one game, but the defence looked mightily improved. Curious to know whether that’s down to El Abd or Byron McGuigan making a big impact?

[Danno]

It’s only one game, but the defence looked mightily improved. Curious to know whether that’s down to El Abd or Byron McGuigan making a big impact?

Do we have any Sale fans in here?

[FKAS]

Fan of this.

I do love how Heyes knew Spencer was behind him and still gave the pass to Roebuck himself because he didn't trust Spencer to get it out fast enough.

Also great cover tackle from Montoya to deny Roebuck from scoring initially.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Some impressive numbers here - https://www.englandrugby.com/fixtures-a ... land#stats

Atkinson and Willis with 21 tackles. No misses. George made 22.

Atkinson definitely missed one in the first half, when he shot out like a rocket.

Yup. But had a decent game. Dingwall will be well hacked off!!

He did indeed. Nothing too flashy, but did not look out of place at all. And some very nice little bits in there.

[Which Tyler]

Do we have any Sale fans in here?

Does anywhere?

[Danno]

Do we have any Sale fans in here?

Does anywhere?

I'm telling Olyy

[Stom]

So, my stream wanted to bore me to death. Gave out at half time and I gave up trying to get it to work, only for England to drastically improve.

On first half showing, we showed all the things that I don't like about SB's England. What changed? And how did the subs perform?

The highlights suggest this was a Ford masterclass, was that the case? Or was there more to it?

[Which Tyler]

The highlights suggest this was a Ford masterclass, was that the case? Or was there more to it?

It was.
It was a masterclass in adapting to the match that was actually happening, very much led by the two Georges

[Stom]

The highlights suggest this was a Ford masterclass, was that the case? Or was there more to it?

It was.
It was a masterclass in adapting to the match that was actually happening, very much led by the two Georges

So we don't really learn much we didn't already know, then?

I love how the media were like "Ford, Argentina's nightmare: he always plays brilliantly against them"...and fail to put the 2+2 together that these are the rare games he's had over the past decade without Farrell, where he's the main man, and generally in a weakened team he just gets us to tick.

It's amazing to think how impressive England could have been the past years if we'd just stuck Ford in the 10 shirt, dropped Farrell, and just played off Ford.

[Which Tyler]

We didn't, particularly, no. But the media and Borthwick might have.
What we did learn is that the new and newish caps all looked comfortable (or better) at this level - and that's a valuable learning.
We "learned" that Ford and George can adapt what they and their team are doing and deviate from what the whiteboard said in a way that would perplex the iceman player-coach - but that they need a good huddle for minor changes, and a HT talk for more major ones.
We did (hopefully) learn that Borthwick is happy allowing/enabling/encouraging that.
We learned that this England can defend very well against intense pressure, and with really good discipline

[Stom]

We didn't, no. But the media and Borthwick might have.
What we did learn is that the new and newish caps all looked comfortable (or better) at this level - and that's a valuable learning.
We "learned" that Ford and George can adapt what they and their team are doing and deviate from what the whiteboard said in a way that would perplex the iceman player-coach - but that they need a good huddle for minor changes, and a HT talk for more major ones.
We did (hopefully) learn that Borthwick is happy allowing/enabling/encouraging that.

Cool. How was Muir? I thought he looked..meh first half, and as he's not someone I'd have picked, interested to get a different perspective.

[Scrumhead]

So, my stream wanted to bore me to death. Gave out at half time and I gave up trying to get it to work, only for England to drastically improve.

On first half showing, we showed all the things that I don't like about SB's England. What changed? And how did the subs perform?

The highlights suggest this was a Ford masterclass, was that the case? Or was there more to it?

In the first half, Argentina came out swinging and we pretty much spent the entire time defending (mostly very well). We also spent about 15mins of the 40 with 14 men, some of it with 13. What were you expecting?

[Scrumhead]

We didn't, no. But the media and Borthwick might have.
What we did learn is that the new and newish caps all looked comfortable (or better) at this level - and that's a valuable learning.
We "learned" that Ford and George can adapt what they and their team are doing and deviate from what the whiteboard said in a way that would perplex the iceman player-coach - but that they need a good huddle for minor changes, and a HT talk for more major ones.
We did (hopefully) learn that Borthwick is happy allowing/enabling/encouraging that.

Cool. How was Muir? I thought he looked..meh first half, and as he's not someone I'd have picked, interested to get a different perspective.

He was decent. Not outstanding but perfectly good. A confident debut I’d say.

[Which Tyler]

Cool. How was Muir? I thought he looked..meh first half, and as he's not someone I'd have picked, interested to get a different perspective.

Comfortable.
Not to the manor born, but also not promoted beyond his ability.