R360 Global League being touted by Mike Tindall

[UKHamlet]

Plans for the proposed new rebel league R360 - which is being driven by former England star Mike Tindall - are rapidly gaining momentum, according to Mail Sport, and it is primed to begin in just over a year.


https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rug ... f7296caae3

[Lizard]

I bet this doesn’t happen. Or at least not as described.

[Puja]

As a connoisseur of the various efforts to launch rugby competitions in the USA over the years, it's incredible to me that media are giving any credence to this at all. Articles about LRZ's options for returning to union seriously touting that he could go back to Glaws, or go get money in Japan or Pro D2, or maybe Red Bull would like him as a statement signing for Newcastle, or maybe he can go to R360 - like they're equally plausible and legitimate options!

The crux is the players - I'm sure LRZ could sign an exclusive contract with R360 if he really wanted, but he'd be playing with himself. The concept is worthless without having all the superstars involved and they won't jump until everyone else has jumped as well and it's clear that R360 has taken over. All this stuff about "300 players have signed contracts expressing interest" is complete nonsense. I'm fairly confident that Maro Itoje probably *has* signed something saying that, if R360 does happen to become the main event, he'd like to be involved and get some of that money, but it's not going to be something that will involve him leaving Saracens and England to go join a rival league - it'll just be ifs and in-the-event-thats.

The second issue is the IRB. Without their sanction, there's no referees, no pitches, no insurance, probably a dozen other things that I'm not considering - without them getting on board, it's not "rugby union"; it's an entirely new sport being set up from scratch that just happens to play by the same rules. I suppose they could potentially be bribed into acquiescence, but it would take Saudi Investment Fund levels of money, given that it would be a horrendous risk to tear up all of the existing structures for a pie-in-the-sky, hope-and-a-prayer, completely unproven competition. And that's assuming the bribe is big enough to get all the member unions on board as well - can't see the RFU and FFR coming cheap.

I suppose they could go down the route of a complete schism from union and become a new sport, but acquiring their own refs, acquiring their own insurance, acquiring facilities and permissions, competing for players, sponsorship, medical staff, coaches - all against the background of of the union "establishment" being obstructionist and working to thwart them. If there's one thing that the history of rugby league taught us, it's that the union powers-that-be can be petty, vindictive bitches when threatened with a competitor - and frankly, I'd be surprised if the league PTB weren't also petty and obstructionist to a new code as well, as the last thing they need is someone else muddying the name of "rugby". Take all the added expense of the IRB fighting an existential threat, and I think that's taking the costs even out of the reach of the SIF and certainly beyond any hope of profiting from the thing!

Given all that, it is a press release, nothing more.

Puja

[Lizard]

Zackly.

[Sandydragon]

As a connoisseur of the various efforts to launch rugby competitions in the USA over the years, it's incredible to me that media are giving any credence to this at all. Articles about LRZ's options for returning to union seriously touting that he could go back to Glaws, or go get money in Japan or Pro D2, or maybe Red Bull would like him as a statement signing for Newcastle, or maybe he can go to R360 - like they're equally plausible and legitimate options!

The crux is the players - I'm sure LRZ could sign an exclusive contract with R360 if he really wanted, but he'd be playing with himself. The concept is worthless without having all the superstars involved and they won't jump until everyone else has jumped as well and it's clear that R360 has taken over. All this stuff about "300 players have signed contracts expressing interest" is complete nonsense. I'm fairly confident that Maro Itoje probably *has* signed something saying that, if R360 does happen to become the main event, he'd like to be involved and get some of that money, but it's not going to be something that will involve him leaving Saracens and England to go join a rival league - it'll just be ifs and in-the-event-thats.

The second issue is the IRB. Without their sanction, there's no referees, no pitches, no insurance, probably a dozen other things that I'm not considering - without them getting on board, it's not "rugby union"; it's an entirely new sport being set up from scratch that just happens to play by the same rules. I suppose they could potentially be bribed into acquiescence, but it would take Saudi Investment Fund levels of money, given that it would be a horrendous risk to tear up all of the existing structures for a pie-in-the-sky, hope-and-a-prayer, completely unproven competition. And that's assuming the bribe is big enough to get all the member unions on board as well - can't see the RFU and FFR coming cheap.

I suppose they could go down the route of a complete schism from union and become a new sport, but acquiring their own refs, acquiring their own insurance, acquiring facilities and permissions, competing for players, sponsorship, medical staff, coaches - all against the background of of the union "establishment" being obstructionist and working to thwart them. If there's one thing that the history of rugby league taught us, it's that the union powers-that-be can be petty, vindictive bitches when threatened with a competitor - and frankly, I'd be surprised if the league PTB weren't also petty and obstructionist to a new code as well, as the last thing they need is someone else muddying the name of "rugby". Take all the added expense of the IRB fighting an existential threat, and I think that's taking the costs even out of the reach of the SIF and certainly beyond any hope of profiting from the thing!

Given all that, it is a press release, nothing more.

Puja

Can’t argue with any of that.

Not being able to play internationally will be a bit hit for most players, other than those at the. Wry end of their career, or as a cash builder between world cups for the established internationals.

Insurance and refs is also key, but probably not insurmountable.

But this only works if there is wide scale buy in. And if the UK gets one franchise based in London (there may be more but equally who knows) are we all supposed to stop supporting our existing teams to support that? I’m not seeing the huge fan base transition here.

It’s all very well pushinga pile of money into a country’s domestic league to make it the best in the world and attract top talent. This feels like bollocks and I can only hope it is, otherwise it’s likely to cause immense disruption and not actually improve anything.

[Puja]

Insurance and refs is also key, but probably not insurmountable.

It's likely the pettifogging bullshit that will cause the biggest hurdles though. It's not just the initial impact, but the personal connections that the powerbrokers in the game have. Insurers know what to charge for the game of rugby union, because it's regulated by the IRB which is a respected body and reduces the risk. For a brand new, full-contact sport, without any kind of established governing body, any reputable or experienced referees, any chief medical officer, that's going to need to go to individual underwriting consideration... and guess who happens to play golf with the head of compiance - it's an IRB board member!

But this only works if there is wide scale buy in. And if the UK gets one franchise based in London (there may be more but equally who knows) are we all supposed to stop supporting our existing teams to support that? I’m not seeing the huge fan base transition here.

No, you see, it's gonna work - there'll be one team for England, based in London, where all the best English players are concentrated, and the fans will come together because they're a team representing the whole nation, like a national representative team, and they'll play games against the team in Cardiff, and the team in Paris, and the team in Dublin...

Wait, I think this is starting to sound familiar somehow...

Puja

[Sandydragon]

Insurance and refs is also key, but probably not insurmountable.

It's likely the pettifogging bullshit that will cause the biggest hurdles though. It's not just the initial impact, but the personal connections that the powerbrokers in the game have. Insurers know what to charge for the game of rugby union, because it's regulated by the IRB which is a respected body and reduces the risk. For a brand new, full-contact sport, without any kind of established governing body, any reputable or experienced referees, any chief medical officer, that's going to need to go to individual underwriting consideration... and guess who happens to play golf with the head of compiance - it's an IRB board member!

But this only works if there is wide scale buy in. And if the UK gets one franchise based in London (there may be more but equally who knows) are we all supposed to stop supporting our existing teams to support that? I’m not seeing the huge fan base transition here.

No, you see, it's gonna work - there'll be one team for England, based in London, where all the best English players are concentrated, and the fans will come together because they're a team representing the whole nation, like a national representative team, and they'll play games against the team in Cardiff, and the team in Paris, and the team in Dublin...

Wait, I think this is starting to sound familiar somehow...

Puja

I didn’t suggest it wouldn’t be expensive, but I expect they could get insurance and over some other costs if the money is there.

I agree though, this feels like a new set of international teams where there is a draft system of sorts, but based on known and potential commercial centres rather than just nations.

Not a future I can embrace.

[Puja]

Brian Moore asking the obvious questions: https://archive.ph/RNxz9

There are so many questions I want R360 to answer

Before World Rugby can make a decision about whether to sanction a new tournament, its backers must explain their ambitions

Historically reliable sources have recently made conflicting claims to me about the proposed R360 rugby initiative. Some say that funding is locked in already for a global circus comprising eight teams of rugby’s best male players and four teams of the best women. Others claim this is smoke and mirrors. But this all needs sorting out quickly because R360 has applied to World Rugby for permission to hold its tournament and what happens hereafter has potentially grave consequences.

Several meetings have taken place and R360 is demanding a decision in the near future. Yet World Rugby must first demand answers to fundamental questions. The governing body is taking this threat to the sport seriously but it is hard to properly consider the proposal until all the details are provided. If that detail is not given, World Rugby should say no – or the game will be left to pick up the pieces.

The first question is a legal and governance point: has R360 complied with its duty to speak to individual unions in whose territories it proposes to play games? If not, why not, and why should the application be allowed at all?

There are then three questions around the wider issues of stability, compensation and player release which must be considered against the fact that disruptor brands, like R360, depend on damaging legacy brands. Without proper detail, rugby’s stakeholders, including its commercial, broadcast and other supporters, cannot adequately form a view and transmit it to those making decisions. Those stakeholders must be heard before anything is agreed or, alternatively, rugby goes to war via litigation and threats of non-selection.

If the R360 model is sustainable and funding is in place, we are entitled at least to know the franchise bidders or holders; not just because of issues like sportswashing but to scrutinise the possible owners’ previous records in sports investment. If they are reputable and genuinely exist, why is this a problem? If they want anonymity, why?

The new rugby vision is said to frame fixtures in a wider, non-sporting context, with add-ons like music and other entertainment. How will this be sustained with three days of double-header fixtures over a weekend and what is the pricing per ticket going to be? A ballpark, but realistic, figure must be laid out in any legitimate business model. Rugby’s administrators need this information to make a sensible judgment about sustainability, which should include travel, hotel and subsistence costs for fans living outside the hosting city.

It would be irresponsible to allow a “try it and see” concept that potentially damages existing structures without adequate scrutiny of financial viability, possibly from independent sources. How much will a successful R360 circus damage rugby’s major international and domestic league structures and all their associated broadcasting, commercial, merchandising and ticketing rights? Who are R360’s actual or proposed broadcasters and what are they bidding?

If R360 is to cream off the top layer of players, what compensation, beyond the vague promise of global marketing, are they offering in return? What is offered to owners who are presently financing professional rugby? What does it offer in terms of financing junior rugby and the rugby pathway? This is where the next generation of players will be nurtured and it is presently financed by individual unions and local benefactors, supported by thousands of volunteers.

Almost nobody acknowledges the complexity and huge cost of the support systems that are necessary to cover rugby’s professional and amateur anti-doping, medical, and disciplinary systems, all of which are subject to lawsuits if run improperly. If R360 intends to use them, particularly the world’s top referees, will it help finance their development and maintenance within World Rugby’s existing structure?

R360 says it has set aside a player release that guarantees its players can play in international windows but that does not include extended preparation time in camps, and it has no such window for women’s rugby. What guarantee does rugby have that players will be released when their main payers (R360’s franchises) say they will? Football fans are all too aware of how this dynamic turns out when interests conflict.

The lack of a guaranteed release clause for the women’s international windows (which are different to the men’s) will kill women’s rugby after what should be the defining and positive impact of this year’s Women’s Rugby World Cup. Premiership Women’s Rugby, which offers a pathway from amateur to professional rugby, cannot possibly survive without its top players (and most of the world’s best 120 play in the leading women’s club league). World Rugby, and the Rugby Football Union, must not gamble with the present successes in the women’s game when R360 cannot prove it has secured even the initial funding for its women’s rugby proposal or guarantee players’ release in line with existing arrangements.

R360 is proposing taking on the burden of financing professional elite rugby but only for a very thin top layer. Already rich men and organisations want permission to make hundreds of millions of pounds by taking the game’s best assets, then expecting the vast majority of amateur and professional rugby to live on their crumbs. They are rugby’s equivalent of the UK’s utility companies waiting to happen.