England v Fiji

[Oakboy]

Arundell, Murley, Radwan, OHC: opinion will vary on the pecking order of the group. All four are behind IFW on the 'flair' list. Roebuck, Freeman and Steward offer different attributes. Then there are Furbank and Marcus - different again in back-three skill-sets.

IF everyone was fit and in-form maybe IFW, Roebuck and Furbank would be 1st choice with Freeman at 13. With long-standing and current injuries affecting selection, I'd suggest that the first-named four ought to be thinking FB. I doubt any of the four will get to be first choice purely as wingers. IMO, Arundell is the most exciting wing prospect of the four and he moves up a grade if he is a realistic FB option.

[twitchy]

It's actually quite useful injury (as long as it isn't serious) and lets us seriously see how arundell operates in this team.

[Which Tyler]

No-one is saying that Freeman doesn't have potential at OC. We're saying he needs to realise that potential BEFORE starts tests in the 13 shirt - especially if there a very good, international quality OC who's being dropped in order for TF to learn on the job.

This is no different to experimenting with Marcus at FB, or Farrell at IC, or TCurry at #8 on the international pitch, rather than at club level. (well, it IS a little different, in that there were no very good international quality players being dropped to make room for Owen or Tom - especially not ones who'd managed to prove that whilst being played out of position themselves,, and finally had a shot at their actual, specialist position).



Freeman might become a world class utility back.
Currently England have 4 better (fit) outside centres.

Currently, and IMO, giving Freeman more caps at OC is throwing good money after bad - unless Saints agree that he's now their first choice OC, and will be playing there exclusively for the rest of the season, and this is just the start of his move across (in which case, I'd still argue that the experiment could easily have waited for 1 month, and been seen at test level in the 6N)

[Captainhaircut]

That’s the rub though isn’t it. Lawrence has never shown himself to be a “very good, international level OC”. He has 33 caps and has really impressed in only a few. I’m not sure he’s ever made as many carries as Freeman did last week and generally he’s not been trusted to defend the 13 channel.

Unfortunately Borthwick doesn’t have the liberty of controlling where his players play for their clubs like some of the media darling coaches. So if he fancies Freeman is the best option at 13 (most likely because he doesn’t rate the other options and we have a shit load of wingers we do rate), then he has to force that situation.

P.S. there’s no way we have 4 outside centres better than Freeman. Thankfully Borthwick thinks that too.

[twitchy]

It's a squad game now. We are developing different combinations. We always seem to get key injuries before tournies anyway, so looking for the perfect starting 15 is probably less important.

[FKAS]

No-one is saying that Freeman doesn't have potential at OC. We're saying he needs to realise that potential BEFORE starts tests in the 13 shirt - especially if there a very good, international quality OC who's being dropped in order for TF to learn on the job.

This is no different to experimenting with Marcus at FB, or Farrell at IC, or TCurry at #8 on the international pitch, rather than at club level. (well, it IS a little different, in that there were no very good international quality players being dropped to make room for Owen or Tom - especially not ones who'd managed to prove that whilst being played out of position themselves,, and finally had a shot at their actual, specialist position).



Freeman might become a world class utility back.
Currently England have 4 better (fit) outside centres.

Currently, and IMO, giving Freeman more caps at OC is throwing good money after bad - unless Saints agree that he's now their first choice OC, and will be playing there exclusively for the rest of the season, and this is just the start of his move across (in which case, I'd still argue that the experiment could easily have waited for 1 month, and been seen at test level in the 6N)

Couple of points here is suppose.

1. Freeman looked entirely comfortable defending the 13 channel against a handy Australian backline. Lawrence was regularly moved to defend in the 13 channel because there were concerns about his ability to cover at international level.

2. The only issue around Freeman at 13 was that he didn't release his outside backs at the right time. The whole backline lacked cohesion which given the three training sessions and a new attack coach isn't particularly surprising.

3. Versatility is important in the current international game. The idea that Freeman needs to play 13 for Saints all season to get a shot there for Saints is a bit over the top. He's got the attributes to do the job, has done it well on occasions for Saints previously (injury to others stopping more game time there), for starters he's England's best back carrying into traffic. England are looking to South African innovation so I'm expecting plenty more options for versatility being looked at.

4. Four better OCs?!? Come on now, England have a shortage of high quality centres who are international ready.

[twitchy]

CCS starting at 8 according to the telegraph.

[Which Tyler]

That’s the rub though isn’t it. Lawrence has never shown himself to be a “very good, international level OC”.

Lawrence has proven himself to be a very good, international level centre - who plays exclusively at OC except at international level.

You are perfectly entitled to disagree with this opinion, but that doesn't make it a crazy opinion.

Couple of points here is suppose.

1. Freeman looked entirely comfortable defending the 13 channel against a handy Australian backline. Lawrence was regularly moved to defend in the 13 channel because there were concerns about his ability to cover at international level.

2. The only issue around Freeman at 13 was that he didn't release his outside backs at the right time. The whole backline lacked cohesion which given the three training sessions and a new attack coach isn't particularly surprising.

3. Versatility is important in the current international game. The idea that Freeman needs to play 13 for Saints all season to get a shot there for Saints is a bit over the top. He's got the attributes to do the job, has done it well on occasions for Saints previously (injury to others stopping more game time there), for starters he's England's best back carrying into traffic. England are looking to South African innovation so I'm expecting plenty more options for versatility being looked at.

4. Four better OCs?!? Come on now, England have a shortage of high quality centres who are international ready.

1. Again, I haven't said anything negative about Freeman. I'm confused by your argument against Lawrence here. When playing for England, he plays IC - and you're saying that he's moved to OC in defence because of concerns about his ability (that I haven't seen mentioned outside of Rugby Rebels) to defend the OC channel? that he plays week-in, week-out with no concerns about his defence.

2. No. The only issue with Freeman at 13 is that he hasn't played enough matches at 13, and doesn't have the honed instincts of a 13 who actually plays 13.

3. Yes. I haven't said otherwise. The idea that Freeman needs to play 13 for a whole season's worth of games is 100% consistent with my views on every other player who's been played out of position for England - and entirely consistent with most people's views on Marcus at 15, Owen at 12, Tom at 8, etc etc etc.

4. Lawrence - actually plays 13 week-in, week-out. Slade, who plays 13 week-in, week-out. Dingwall, who plays about 2/3 of his rugby at OC. Ojomoh, who's played several more matches at 13 than Freeman has, and who's primary position is easier to switch to 13 from than wing. All of whom were in the squad for this Autumn.



You guys are perfectly entitled to disagree with me on every single one of my points - but please accept that I'm not simply crazy for wanting an actual outside centre playing outside centre for England.

[Captainhaircut]

I think that’s fair enough re CCS. We need to build options with a bigger 8 and he was decent against Sarries from 8 earlier in the season. He needs to show he can maintain ball security and have a high work rate in defence and attack. From there his natural size, athleticism and line out ability will make him a serious player.

[Oakboy]

Of all our options for the 13 shirt, the one who I think the opposition would like to face least is Freeman. That's now. In 5 or 6 games time his case will probably be stronger regardless of what shirt he or his rivals have worn for their clubs in the meantime.

I've said for a long time that the shirt was Slade's till Freeman was ready to take it. That's now the case, IMO.

The biggest danger to Freeman's long-term development at OC is Farrell's return at IC. I am far more concerned about somebody nailing down the 12 shirt to stop that happening.

[loudnconfident]

Of all our options for the 13 shirt, the one who I think the opposition would like to face least is Freeman.

[deleted]

I wonder if the Oz FB would agree. He was facing a fired-up Immanuel Feyi-Waboso 1on1 - twice IIRC - and must have been thankful Freemen did'nt pass.

[Mikey Brown]

I do think Freeman playing there regularly will be importsnt, but I’m not sure how “throwing good money after bad” really fits in this situation. He’s been pretty good in his two chances given how disjointed our backs selection is.

I’d still have Lawrence in the 23 shirt though. I wouldn’t be upset to see him start at 13, but some continuity would be nice.

CCS in at 8 would be interesting. Borthwick must have heard he might be off to Sarries and now he’s a fan.

[Oakboy]

Of all our options for the 13 shirt, the one who I think the opposition would like to face least is Freeman.

[deleted]

I wonder if the Oz FB would agree. He was facing a fired-up Immanuel Feyi-Waboso 1on1 - twice IIRC - and must have been thankful Freemen did'nt pass.

Simple lesson, Freeman has now learnt, I'd imagine. Would any of the alternative selections have got there in the first place? Who knows. Thinking positively, it was a chance created. Next time it will be a try.

[fivepointer]

I wouldnt have picked Freeman at 13. Primarily because he doesnt play there for his club and its a position that he's had limited experience in playing. Also, does he really have the passing/offloading game? Now that he's in, we have to give it a chance to blossom. I think he could be very good, but lets wait and see how this autumn and beyond play out.

[Puja]

I wouldnt have picked Freeman at 13. Primarily because he doesnt play there for his club and its a position that he's had limited experience in playing. Also, does he really have the passing/offloading game? Now that he's in, we have to give it a chance to blossom. I think he could be very good, but lets wait and see how this autumn and beyond play out.

Pretty much the same opinion as me.

I will admit to having been more impressed by Freeman against Australia that I expected to be. His defensive instincts were spot-on and we used his pace in covering ground defensively in a way which would not have been possible with Lawrence. It's also worth noting just how well Roebuck played - not just under the high ball, but his defence, support lines, and general reading of the game, so the question is perhaps less "Is Lawrence a better 13 than Freeman?" (yes, at the moment, imo, but it's closer than I thought it'd be), and more, "Is Lawrence enough better a 13 than Freeman to justify not having Roebuck in the XV?"

Puja

[FKAS]

I wouldnt have picked Freeman at 13. Primarily because he doesnt play there for his club and its a position that he's had limited experience in playing. Also, does he really have the passing/offloading game? Now that he's in, we have to give it a chance to blossom. I think he could be very good, but lets wait and see how this autumn and beyond play out.

Pretty much the same opinion as me.

I will admit to having been more impressed by Freeman against Australia that I expected to be. His defensive instincts were spot-on and we used his pace in covering ground defensively in a way which would not have been possible with Lawrence. It's also worth noting just how well Roebuck played - not just under the high ball, but his defence, support lines, and general reading of the game, so the question is perhaps less "Is Lawrence a better 13 than Freeman?" (yes, at the moment, imo, but it's closer than I thought it'd be), and more, "Is Lawrence enough better a 13 than Freeman to justify not having Roebuck in the XV?"

Puja

Freeman brought something Lawrence has often failed too, he carried hard through multiple set tacklers. For a big bloke, running into a set defence and getting over the gainline isn't a Lawrence strength.

I would be interested in seeing if a partnership of the two works Vs Fiji given Marcus is likely to be playing 15 and Roebuck is unavailable so having an extra carrier in midfield will be useful.

[Beasties]

My view is that, if we're going to play Freeman as a 13, he has to be given the whole AIs. Swapping him in and out achieves nothing and, when we've got a queue of wingers as long as we do, it's hardly like we need to abandon the experiment partway through. Would require another three injuries before I'd consider moving him out personally, and even then, I'd probably still say Hassell-Collins could do the job fine.

Puja

Yep. There's so little value in a game at centre here or there. Give him a run.

Interesting to see Arundell is so high up on many peoples lists at wing, but I've not really seen any club rugby so far this season. Has he rounded out his game or is he really looking that lethal?

Pretty much what Oakboy said. He has gone back to looking like a generational talent when I've watched him for Bath this season. Ridiculous acceleration, combined with with an inhuman ability to change speed and direction like momentum doesn't apply to him, combined with leg strength that allows him to bump forwards in the tackle. He's not completely finished in every aspect, but he's not got any glaring holes in his game that I can see, and his running ability almost makes him worth it even if there was a glaring hole.

Puja

It’s his speed of thought that has impressed me most in his games for Bath this season. I wasn’t expecting that.

[Beasties]

I imagine Borthwick is as peed off as the rest of us that his selection of an Atkinson-Freeman axis has been neutered. Makes it difficult to assess how successful the Freeman "experiment" can be. So many options available to him but prob not the one he wanted.

[Which Tyler]

Arundell has already exceeded my expectations - disciplined in defense, generally good positioning and decision making, happy to take contact and offload, and the obvious dancing feet that makes space and draws defenders onto him (or more accurately, where he was half a second ago).

He looks a completely different player to the one I saw a few times for Racing - like he's grown a brain. Maybe he was just struggling with the language? or just needed a clearer role in the team?

[FKAS]

Arundell has already exceeded my expectations - disciplined in defense, generally good positioning and decision making, happy to take contact and offload, and the obvious dancing feet that makes space and draws defenders onto him (or more accurately, where he was half a second ago).

He looks a completely different player to the one I saw a few times for Racing - like he's grown a brain. Maybe he was just struggling with the language? or just needed a clearer role in the team?

Good, settled head coach with a consistent message probably helps quite a bit as well.

[Captainhaircut]

Given how we play, I think it’s likely we’ll want one big wing and one speedster, with big one on right and speedster on left. Borthwick coming up under Jones who openly said he liked the big man/speedster combo probably supports this too.

Think that probably works against Arundell a bit as it means he’s up against IFW along with Murley and Sleightholme. With Roebuck, Caluori and Freeman when not at centre and maybe PBB on the right wing.

Obviously a big simplistic but guess my point is that Arundell and IFW as wings doesn’t seem awfully likely as regular pairing to me. Which is a shame for Arundell. I wish he had just gone straight to Bath and played the last 2 years at full back.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Arundell has already exceeded my expectations - disciplined in defense, generally good positioning and decision making, happy to take contact and offload, and the obvious dancing feet that makes space and draws defenders onto him (or more accurately, where he was half a second ago).

He looks a completely different player to the one I saw a few times for Racing - like he's grown a brain. Maybe he was just struggling with the language? or just needed a clearer role in the team?

Definitely. There’s lots still to work on to get to the next level, like sheer bastard willingness to throw himself at things, like a ball on the floor. But he’s really hit the ground running at Bath. I think your style really suits him, and it must be amazing to play in that backline / team.

Would like to see him come off his wing a bit more, but that will come with time and familiarity with his team mates and system. It’s in his game, but he has only played a handful of games in his new team.

Most of all he looks like he’s enjoying his rugby! Lots of smiles on the pitch which is great to see.

[Mikey Brown]

Given how we play, I think it’s likely we’ll want one big wing and one speedster, with big one on right and speedster on left. Borthwick coming up under Jones who openly said he liked the big man/speedster combo probably supports this too.

Think that probably works against Arundell a bit as it means he’s up against IFW along with Murley and Sleightholme. With Roebuck, Caluori and Freeman when not at centre and maybe PBB on the right wing.

Obviously a big simplistic but guess my point is that Arundell and IFW as wings doesn’t seem awfully likely as regular pairing to me. Which is a shame for Arundell. I wish he had just gone straight to Bath and played the last 2 years at full back.

The counter would be that they’re both incredibly powerful in their own right. Though I guess the counter-counter would be that ‘aerially dominant’ is more accurate than just big.

Cokanaisga for example would probably be vying with the 11s rather than the 14s.

You’re right though that if Arundell can establish as a wing who also provides 15 cover that could see him favoured for the 23 at least.

[twitchy]

Arundell certainly doesn't skip neck day.

[FKAS]

Arundell certainly doesn't skip neck day.

If you've got a side step like that you've got to protect against whiplash.